February 4th, 2016, 08:54 AM | #1 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Gaston
Location: Luis saenz peña 1423
Join Date: Oct 2014 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250r Posts: 17
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Project Ninja 282cc
Hello riders!
I recently bought a Wiseco piston kit 66mm 12,5:1 for my ninja. The idea is to get 42hp. Up today this is the bike configuration: - Full M4 exhaust - Dyno jet - K&N pod filter - Pre Gen CDI (15k RPM and 42 deg I think) Yesterday I port the head: Here are the pistons side by side: The only problem I'm having is with the sleeves. Originals have 68mm (outside), and with the 66mm pistons the wall would be only 1mm thin. So the obvious thing would be to replace the sleeves with 66mm interior and 72mm outside diameter (3mm wall like the original), but the carter only have space for a 69mm sleeve (see picture) So... I was thinking to make the 72mm sleeves BUT the part that goes into the carter leave it in 69mm. Opinions? Thanks! greeting from Argentina! |
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February 4th, 2016, 08:56 AM | #2 |
The Corner Whisperer
Name: Chris (aka Reactor)
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Welcome Gaston!
Good luck with your project!
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February 4th, 2016, 09:01 AM | #3 |
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I would ask @Racer x for input
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February 4th, 2016, 09:34 AM | #4 |
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Welcome, good to see some more engine builds. I run 4mm overbore on stock sleeves without any problems, yet. I have run into some people who say the cylinder wall may crack and hydro the engine.
I hope you reach your 42hp goal but I think that figure is optimistic. |
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February 4th, 2016, 10:24 AM | #5 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: Gaston
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Quote:
Bruce71198, how long have you been using 4mm overbore in your bike? I know 42 hp is very optimist, 40 would be ok too jaja |
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February 4th, 2016, 10:34 AM | #6 |
Vintage Screwball
Name: B
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Is it a common practice in these motors to leave the valve guide ground off like that? What does it do for valve life?
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February 4th, 2016, 11:09 AM | #7 |
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February 4th, 2016, 11:11 AM | #8 |
Vintage Screwball
Name: B
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There is no doubt the flow is much better. At the same time, the valve stem is given more opportunity to flex. I'm going to look into this more....my curiosity is peaked.
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February 4th, 2016, 11:14 AM | #9 |
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February 4th, 2016, 11:20 AM | #10 |
ninjette.org sage
Name: bruce
Location: northern illinois
Join Date: Jan 2012 Motorcycle(s): Race bikes:08 Ninja 250,11 R6,16 ZX6,SV650.3 HD-1947,2-2003,2010. 1946 Indian and a lot of dirt bikes.2 Posts: 999
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I have been running this set up on one of my track bikes for 2 seasons now. I had some head gasket issues at first. Now that I have that sorted its been rock solid.
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February 4th, 2016, 11:26 AM | #11 |
Vintage Screwball
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Good to know, thank you! Are you running oversized or stock valves? Upgraded springs with high spring pressures?
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February 4th, 2016, 11:35 AM | #12 |
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February 4th, 2016, 12:13 PM | #13 |
ninjette.org sage
Name: bruce
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February 4th, 2016, 01:02 PM | #14 |
Vintage Screwball
Name: B
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Sorry for the side track but thanks!
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February 5th, 2016, 05:10 AM | #15 |
Board Member
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Stock sleeves should be fine. Ground guides are fine.
I hope you get all that you are hoping for. |
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February 6th, 2016, 05:16 PM | #16 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Gaston
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Valve grinding day
I went to the machine shop. They tell me it is not possible to put bigger slevees since they are secured by orings and could not modify that area to accommodate the new ones, so he's going to grind the originals. He asked me about the clearance between the piston and cylinder. I look for it in the website of Wiseco and found no data. Can anybody tell me what clearance I need? Thanks! |
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February 7th, 2016, 11:03 AM | #17 |
ninjette.org sage
Name: bruce
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Quote:
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February 7th, 2016, 11:21 AM | #18 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Gaston
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70% street / 30% race
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February 7th, 2016, 12:24 PM | #19 |
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What o-rings?
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February 7th, 2016, 10:29 PM | #20 |
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February 8th, 2016, 06:02 AM | #21 |
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If you are referring to sealing the new sleeve to the old cylinder block you can use this ..
http://www.valco-hylomarproducts.com. I have read about it but not used it personally. If you bore the stock sleeve it will go below .050. That is very thin. I have that and have not run the engine yet. But my fear is the bottom half of the sleeve will crack and slide down.
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Top speed 123.369mph. Ohio mile Worlds fastest 250 ninja |
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February 8th, 2016, 12:53 PM | #22 |
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Name: bruce
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February 12th, 2016, 04:07 AM | #23 |
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February 12th, 2016, 06:19 AM | #24 |
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Nice job on the boring.
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Top speed 123.369mph. Ohio mile Worlds fastest 250 ninja |
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February 14th, 2016, 04:01 PM | #25 |
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Love to see this thing when it is finished, I bet it is going to be a hoot.
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February 19th, 2016, 07:07 AM | #26 |
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Looking good, but not sure I'd trust a 1mm wet liner !
I'm working on a similar build, with ZZR250, the same engine as the old Ninja 250. I have picked up my reworked block today with 2.5mm walls & 66mm bore, i used ZZR600 liners, bored out from 64mm. Will use ZX6R 66mm pistons & 2 base gaskets to avoid to high a compression ratio ! Everything else will be standard for now, but I have a few tricks I developed on previous builds that should boost power More when its built. Does anyone know if the Cometic 66mm head gasket will fit the old engine ? They only list a 64mm bore for the old engine ! Thanks Last futzed with by Mohawk; February 19th, 2016 at 08:45 AM. |
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February 19th, 2016, 11:16 AM | #27 | |
ninjette.org sage
Name: bruce
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Quote:
The old and new head gaskets are different and not interchangeable. I also included a picture of the orings in the block, one is also visible at the top of the liner. [/IMG] |
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February 19th, 2016, 11:45 AM | #28 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: Chris
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Thanks.
Are those the standard liners ? or is that a larger diameter replacement liner ? That you have step turned the OD down. If original, then that top O-ring will leave very little metal with a 66mm bore, it's also at the highest pressure during combustion & is exactly where most iron liners crack when used in high compression motors. Agreed 1mm is plenty at the base, up to about 70mm bore, larger than that & you'd want more meat. I had mine bored through so 71mm OD liners, this will require a minor trim on the crankcase mouth to fit. |
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February 19th, 2016, 01:17 PM | #29 | |
ninjette.org sage
Name: bruce
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Quote:
The only 4mm over cylinder I've seen that failed split long ways into the water jacket. It may have been due to an off center bore job. |
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February 19th, 2016, 06:48 PM | #30 |
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The one problem I found after boring the stock liners was getting the rings in. It is a bit tricky with the chamfer gone.
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Top speed 123.369mph. Ohio mile Worlds fastest 250 ninja |
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February 20th, 2016, 01:38 AM | #31 |
ninjette.org guru
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I won't have that problem on mine but may need to relieve the crankcase mouth a little.
Last futzed with by Mohawk; February 21st, 2016 at 01:24 AM. |
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February 20th, 2016, 05:27 PM | #32 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Gaston
Location: Luis saenz peña 1423
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It's alive!
Finally, I finish assembling the engine.
Just like Racer X said, getting the rings inside the cylinder was really hard. There is not a lot of space for your fingers and also, most important, there is no chanfer to "guide" the ring. But after 2 hours, some finger cuts, bloode and a lot of bad words, they finally fit. After that, everything was very fast: head gasket, cylinder head, some torquing, cams, more torques, valve cover, carburetors, cables, some gas and it started with out problem. Today I made 160 miles (break-in) and there is a big difference. The bike sounds different and I can feel the extra torque and power coming from the engine. (I didn't pass the 9000 rpm yet!) So far so good, water temp is not a problem for the original circuit and radiator/fan. I was runing 112 jets, now I'm using 120. They are runing good, I will check them after the break-in. Some interesting info: Original pistons have the piston pin displaced about 1mm. Wiseco's are symmetric. This difference make the engine more nervous, like asking for more gas all the time Also the pistons don't hit the valves Well that's everything so far, really happy with the results |
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February 20th, 2016, 05:36 PM | #33 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Gaston
Location: Luis saenz peña 1423
Join Date: Oct 2014 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250r Posts: 17
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I weight the pistons also:
Std piston...........124,1gr Std piston pin......34,8gr Wiseco piston......152,8gr Wisecon pin.........47,8gr |
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February 21st, 2016, 01:29 AM | #34 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: Chris
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Looking good. Let's us know how it runs once up to full revs.
Is that a Yoshi M4 exhaust ? Are you running the standard carbs ? The GPX250 used 32mm carbs ! Plus there is always the CR or Yoshi Carbs, but expensive. Regarding the pod filter, you would be better building your own airbox with a ram air feed from the front of the bike. I plan to relocate the battery on my ZZR to the left side of the engine inside the fairings, then remove the stock airbox & fit a much bigger one, will be approximately twice the volume, this will give torque boost throughout the rev range. Pods have no head volume, they breath hot air from the engine & thus reduce power ultimately. I've had good results with Yoshi style secondary velocity stacks on my 800, up from 95 to 120hp with just my own spec cams & big airbox mods & a performance exhaust. The Yoshi stacks don't add power but they do keep the torque delivery smooth. Last futzed with by Mohawk; February 21st, 2016 at 04:12 AM. |
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February 21st, 2016, 05:51 AM | #35 | |
Freedom for Germany
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Quote:
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February 21st, 2016, 07:22 AM | #36 | |
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Quote:
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March 3rd, 2016, 08:57 AM | #37 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: Chris
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I intend to remove the original airbox, the pre-gen Ninja & ZZR share the same parts, I already have a K&N in mine. When its back together I intend to dyno it as stock, then do the airbox dyno, followed by big bore & maybe some head work. If I can find an performance exhasut at reasonable cost I'll fit one too, as the stock headers are nearly rusted through.
With the airbox, the idea is to move the battery, remove the toolkit holder, open the space below & then make an airbox that uses as much of the available space, with ramair ducts to feed it. Will be a few months before this is done though as I'm busy & away with work for much of the next few months. |
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March 4th, 2016, 11:35 AM | #38 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Gaston
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Update
well the bike have 1000 miles already and it's runing great.
I had to change some things: - Main jets: I was using 112 dynojet jets when the engine was 250cc. I change them for 120 but i didn't realice that they where Keihin. So, I have to change them again for 120 dynojet because it was runing lean. - Transmision: had to change the 45 teeth sproket for one with 42. The acceleration was really good but the top speed was 175 kmh (110 miles). With the 42 sproket i reach 190 kmh (119 miles) My clutch is starting to slip when the bike is not at working temperature, so I order kevlar discs, plates and stronger springs. I'm really happy with the bike Soon I´ll be doing a dyno run to see the final numbers |
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March 4th, 2016, 11:57 AM | #39 |
I'm crazy,your excuse is?
Name: Winston
Location: Connecticut
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BAD-ASS!
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March 7th, 2016, 09:39 AM | #40 |
ninjette.org sage
Name: bruce
Location: northern illinois
Join Date: Jan 2012 Motorcycle(s): Race bikes:08 Ninja 250,11 R6,16 ZX6,SV650.3 HD-1947,2-2003,2010. 1946 Indian and a lot of dirt bikes.2 Posts: 999
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