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Old May 5th, 2011, 03:03 PM   #81
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Blown Cylinder Head Gasket

I just removed the kleen air system, air box, rejetted carb, installed k&n pod filter & then capped the hole left on the cylinder head as shown in this thread. Bike was running great, until the cylinder head gasket blew out. I can only assume this happen due to pressure build up after placing the cap where the kleen air system once was. I have replaced the gasket, & am now trying to figure out what should be done next. I did try placing a breather on the cylinder head, but now get fluxuating idle & popping like a vacuum leak. After placing the cap back on, it's back to normal. I don't want to leave the cap on, & risk blowing another gasket. Any suggestions????????
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Old May 5th, 2011, 03:10 PM   #82
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put the Kleen system back on?

Yours is the first I've heard having problems due to removing the Kleen system (if in fact your blown head gasket was caused by it's removal).

is your exhaust system stock?
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Old May 5th, 2011, 03:17 PM   #83
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Question

Nope.... I have an LOR Slip on pipe....
Putting the Kleen Air System back on completely isn't a very attractive option, as the stock air box sucks! I may look at trying to use the vacuum switch that came off to act like a one way vent, to let pressure out, but not let air in..
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Old May 5th, 2011, 03:28 PM   #84
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you could put the Kleen system back on and put a filter on the end of the hose that normally leads to the airbox.

you do know that the reed valve type assembly that they are using as the Kleen system valve at the head only permits air flow in one direction, correct? I don't see how blocking that off could have increased your head pressure. From what I've read about the system, it simply injects/allows fresh air into the exhaust stream during throttle off conditions to lean out the exhaust gases to pass emission levels.

did you by chance remove that reed valve assembly under that cap/plate?

also, did your cylinder head gasket blow or your valve cover gasket?
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Old May 5th, 2011, 03:44 PM   #85
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Not really sure how the whole thing works....It was the valve cover gasket that blew out, it was a minor tear in the corner. If the Kleen Air System only pushes air in, & dosn't regulate any kind of pressure, then the cap should be fine. The bike was fine on shorter rides through town for a few days. The problem happend towards the end of a 20-25 mile ride....
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Old May 5th, 2011, 03:46 PM   #86
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Forgot to add that I didn't remove anything from under the plate...
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Old May 5th, 2011, 03:47 PM   #87
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has the valve cover ever been off?
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Old May 5th, 2011, 03:54 PM   #88
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Nope....Bought it new, and now has 1,500 miles on it....
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Old May 5th, 2011, 04:06 PM   #89
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dunno what to tell you. it does sound suspicious that you should blow a valve cover gasket after doing the Kleen removal, but like I said, yours is the first that I've heard about doing this. To give you a bit more confidence, they have been doing this mod on other Kawasaki models long before the 250 new gens ever came out and I've not heard of problems with those bikes, either.

I would keep it as is and see if you have further problems. If you do, put the Kleen system back in and install a filter on the end of the hose that normally would have connected to the airbox.

I would not do, as you suggested, to use the the valve to purge out gases from the head. Not only would you upset the exhaust system in it's entirety, but you would be purging hot exhaust gases into rubber hoses not designed to handle that heat load.... and, I might add, your gas tank sits right above that valve port. Please don't do this.
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Old May 6th, 2011, 06:43 PM   #90
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Hi Guys,

Although my problem isn't anywhere near as bad as the one above, I'm hoping someone here can help me out with the less than stellar results I'm getting with the kleen air system removed.

I took an evening last week to pull everything apart and remove the kleen air system exactly as described at the beginning of this thread. I removed the T connector (no longer needed) and ran a tube directly from the petcock to the carbs. Everything went really well, and I even bought this kit to block off the port where the old system used to connect:

http://www.drivenracing.com/content....blockoffplates

I bought my bike used and it already had a full yoshi exhaust with the stock air box and snorkel and a K&N replacement filter. It had been re-jetted for that setup, and was running very well with no backfiring.

After removing the kleen air system, my idle is now lower an wanders between 1000 and 1500 (used to be 1600 and very steady). Today my bike fully stalled while sitting at a red light with the bike in neutral. I also noticed that if I'm on the highway and let off the throttle, the bike seems to gargle a bit, and makes no power. If I open the throttle much wider, then it finally snaps out of it and returns to normal.

Is this to be expected? Should the change be serious enough to require re-jetting or otherwise drastically change the bike's performance? I thought that if the bike was running well with an aftermarket exhaust, that removing the system would be harmless?

Can anyone shed some light on what happened here? I know I can just put it back on, but now I'm worried that the issue is pointing to something else being wrong. Should I go all out and replace the filter box with a pod filter and have the bike re-jetted with that setup?

Any help would really be appreciated. I'm definitely a novice when it comes to engines, so hopefully someone here can shed some light on this for me!

Cheers,
Owen
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Old May 6th, 2011, 06:55 PM   #91
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sounds like you perhaps missed capping off one of the vacuum ports when you removed the Kleen system switch? there should have been a skinny hose that ran up to that switch. what did you do with it?

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Old May 6th, 2011, 07:00 PM   #92
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That skinny hose ran to a T connector that also connected to the carb and the fuel petcock. I removed the T connector and reused a section of hose to connect the carb directly to the fuel petcock, hence eliminating the T connector.

Does that make sense, or did I miss something? Where did that port on the top of the Kleen air valve used to lead to. Now that I look at it, I don't remember anything being hooked up there.
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Old May 6th, 2011, 07:23 PM   #93
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sounds like you got it correct. there was no hose connected to the top of that Kleen switch.

removing the Kleen system should have resulted with no changes to your fine running bike... obviously, something is not connected right. Check again to see if the vacuum hoses are properly connected and are not leaking or damaged.

when you installed the block off plate, you left the Kleen reed valve assembly inside the head, correct?
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Old May 6th, 2011, 07:30 PM   #94
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Hi kkim,

That's correct. I only disconnected the two bolts holding the old plate, and installed the new plate using the same bolts. I didn't remove anything below the plate.

I'll pull things back apart tomorrow morning and make sure none of the hoses have worked themselves loose. I was pretty meticulous, and everything was carefully reconnected, but who knows, maybe I missed something or kinked a tube.

Thanks for your help!

Cheers,
Owen
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Old May 6th, 2011, 07:37 PM   #95
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please update with what you find. I always thought this was a straight forward mod, but with what has been popping up lately, perhaps there is more to learn about this, collectively.

btw, yours is the first full system/slipon install that I've heard that didn't encounter the decel popping. do you happen to know what your jetting specs are?
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Old May 6th, 2011, 08:11 PM   #96
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I certainly will. I'll take everything apart and report back tomorrow.

As for jetting specs, I really have no idea since I didn't do the work. If I ever pull the carbs apart, is there any way to determine what it was set to? If so, I might be able to make a note of it if I ever get up the courage to rummage around in there.

Just to make sure I understand the kleen air system correctly, is the following true?

1. The actual vacuum pressure is generated in the carb.
2. The vacuum pressure opens the fuel valve allowing fuel to flow.
3. The same vacuum pressure also used to open the kleen air valve.
4. The kleen air valve used to allow filtered air from the air box to flow forward into the port on the top of the engine (presumably into the exhaust from there?)

I don't really understand how you would flow air from a low pressure zone (like the air box) to a high pressure zone (like the exhaust outlet) by simply opening a valve. If you did that, wouldn't exhaust air flow back into the airbox, not the other way around?

I just want to make sure I actually understand what this system does.

Regards,
Owen
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Old May 6th, 2011, 08:21 PM   #97
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that's the basic idea. the exhaust is prevented from flowing backwards towards the airbox by that valve I mentioned inside the head. It's a reed valve type setup that only allows flow in one direction.

so, the fresh air is pulled by venturi action (I'm guessing) through the Kleen air switch when the vacuum operated switch allows it, during off throttle applications.

as far as the jets, the values/sizes are stamped on the brass bodies of the main and pilot jets. The needles have grooves for clips that determine needle height. you would need to read the numbers off the jets and see what position the clips are on the needles.
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Old May 7th, 2011, 09:57 AM   #98
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The more research I do, I wonder if I simply had a faulty gasket from the factory, or the bolts may have become a bit loose after the 1,500 miles & needed to be retorqued. As they make block off plates and such for this, capping off the port should not be an issue. I may just need to ride it, and see if it happens again.....
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Old May 7th, 2011, 11:37 AM   #99
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Megan,

Please let us know how it turns out. The more info we have, the better we can come up with solutions should this mod cause problems we are not aware of. Like I said, yours was the first to date, but that doesn't mean it's not a problem. It does sound like the gasket was faulty, but if it happens again, we will know for sure something else is up.
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Old May 7th, 2011, 12:47 PM   #100
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Hi Guys,

Well I tore the whole thing back apart and double checked everything, and I'm positive it was all done correctly. None of the hoses were loose or kinked, and everything was connected as it should have been.

The first thing I tried was turning the fuel petcock to the "prime" position to see if it was a problem with the vacuum not opening the fuel valve. That made no difference, and the idle was still jumping around and dipping below 1000RPM, so I just set it back to "on".

I then pulled off the new block-off plate and took out the reed valves to take a better look at how they worked. I noticed they looked rather sooty, so I snapped a few pictures and cleaned them off carefully. They definitely only allow pressure in one direction (sucking air in, not blowing it out). Putting a block off plate on there certainly won't cause any undue pressure under there, otherwise the thin reed valves would have blown themselves out long ago.

Is that level of soot buildup normal, or is it trying to tell me something about how the bike is running? Too rich? Too lean?

I think I'm going to try putting the Kleen air system back on to see if things go back to the way they were before. If they don't, then it might be indicative of some other issue that just happened to pop up at the same time.

I'll keep you all posted.

Cheers,
Owen
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Old May 7th, 2011, 12:57 PM   #101
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Owen,

can't say what the valve should look like as I've never removed mine.

pull the spark plugs and see what they look like. that would give you an indication of how the engine is running and possible jetting richness.
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Old May 7th, 2011, 01:13 PM   #102
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Well, yet another update. For whatever reason, my bike runs significantly better with that top plate allowed to vent. I pulled the block-off plate off, and put the stock chimney back on. I then ran the longer hose off the chimney which let me block and unblock the chimney with my finger while the bike idled and with some throttle.

With the chimney blocked off, the bike idles between 1400 and 1100, and when I blip the throttle, it revs up and then drops to around 1000, almost stalling, before slowly climbing back up.

With the chimney open to free air, the bike idles steadily at 1600, and when I blip the throttle it doesn't dip any lower than 1500, and therefore doesn't stall.

It's like a night and day difference.

So now what? Do I put the entire system back on, or do I just go buy a small in-line filter and put that where the Kleen air system used to be?

Cheers,
Owen
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Old May 7th, 2011, 01:29 PM   #103
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my guess is that the bike has been jetted richer in the idle circuit to compensate for the Kleen system in operation. when you removed the air source with the block off plate, the bike runs richer, which would account for the lower idling.

like I said, pull the plugs to get an idea if your bike is running rich (plugs will be black).

otherwise, I would put the Kleen system back on and live with it. It seems your bike ran well with it on.

I would not simply put a filter on the hose leading directly from the "chimney" as that would supply extra air all the time to the exhaust flow, which might lead to a too lean condition at other throttle positions other than at idle, which that switch controls.
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Old May 7th, 2011, 02:05 PM   #104
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I went for a quick ride with a cloth tied around the open end of the chimney, and for the first time ever, I was getting the backfiring everyone is talking about! When I let off the throttle, I would get several loud pops, and occasionally when shifting gears. With the kleen air system on there and the full yoshi exhaust, I never once had it backfire like that. Do people really ride around town with it sounding like that? It was horrible!

Anyhow, the whole thing is back on, and it looks like it's there to stay. For whatever reason, someone must have worked hard to dial it in with that system in place, so I'm going to leave it alone. The bike runs noticeably better, and there is without a doubt more power in the lower rev range with it in place. now I just have to put my poor bike back together for the fourth time!

Cheers,
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Old May 7th, 2011, 02:12 PM   #105
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just curious, did you use your choke when starting your bike prior to this?
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Old May 7th, 2011, 02:49 PM   #106
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I've only used it a handful of times when it was below the freezing point here. Otherwise, I never need to use it.

Does all this point towards the bike running a little rich? If it is, should I try and pull the snorkel to see if that helps?

Cheers,
Owen

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Old May 7th, 2011, 02:52 PM   #107
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to me, that says it's a bit rich in the idle circuit.

as for pulling the snorkel, I'm hesitant to make any recommendations with your bike based on my track record so far.

seriously, w/o knowing the jetting, it's very difficult to make recommendations. the main jet mainly affects high rpms... how does it pull from 9k to redline?
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Old May 9th, 2011, 11:06 AM   #108
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Happy to report after changing the gasket, & a test ride, bike is good to go! As always, thanks for your quick feedback, knowledge, & ideas!
Next on the list of mods:
Tire upgrade
Relocate Rear Brake reservoir (Under seat where air box used to be)
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Old August 6th, 2011, 02:08 PM   #109
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Low idle after kleen mod

My idle dropped down to 1k after kleen mod and bike requires choke to start. Ran fine prior and only other mods are snorkel and 2 shims. According to the previous replies, it sounds like I'm running rich. Everything is connected or capped correctly. I can only assume that my bike was originally set-up optimally at the factory and I may have already been running rich with the 2 shims prior and some how compounded the situation by restricting air that was going into the crankcase. Is this possible?

I did not have any issues before shimming. Just assumed it didn't hurt since I did the snorkel and 250s are notorious for being lean. Haven't had time to tear her down again but prefer not to re-install kleen so suggestions would be appreciated.
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Old August 6th, 2011, 02:14 PM   #110
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Where does your bike idle at now, when fully warmed?
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Old August 6th, 2011, 02:53 PM   #111
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I adjusted back to 1.5k last time and low-end seems weak and ilde a bit lumpy. When I started it again this morning it was back at 1k. Didn't have time to warm it up again. Just gave it shot before leaving the house.
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Old August 7th, 2011, 07:20 PM   #112
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Hi dragonboy,

Sounds like you're having a similar problem to what I had. I just spent the weekend pulling out my air box, kleen air system, and installing a K&N R-0990 and Factory Pro jet kit.

My new setup is running really well, and finally lets me get rid of the kleen air system without any issues. If you really want to get rid of it, I would suggest dropping the $30 on the K&N filter and the $80 on the Factory Pro jet kit.

Before installing the above, I actually fully re-installed my Kleen Air system because the bike ran significantly worse without it. I'll post up the jetting that my bike had prior to the airbox removal in the jetting database, which might shed some light on your problem. I think for some specific jetting and bike setups, you're better off not removing the Kleen Air system.

Cheers,
Owen
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Old August 8th, 2011, 09:18 PM   #113
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Thanks opc! I'm going to try removing a washer to see if it helps. Don't really want to mess with a jet kit and recently installed a Uni filter. I'll report back.

Wonder if anyone else had a similar issue. Also, did you confirm that you were running too rich when dialing in your jet kit?

Guess worse case I reinstall the kleen system. :-(

Quote:
Originally Posted by opc View Post
Hi dragonboy,

Sounds like you're having a similar problem to what I had. I just spent the weekend pulling out my air box, kleen air system, and installing a K&N R-0990 and Factory Pro jet kit.

My new setup is running really well, and finally lets me get rid of the kleen air system without any issues. If you really want to get rid of it, I would suggest dropping the $30 on the K&N filter and the $80 on the Factory Pro jet kit.

Before installing the above, I actually fully re-installed my Kleen Air system because the bike ran significantly worse without it. I'll post up the jetting that my bike had prior to the airbox removal in the jetting database, which might shed some light on your problem. I think for some specific jetting and bike setups, you're better off not removing the Kleen Air system.

Cheers,
Owen
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Old August 12th, 2011, 08:04 AM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by randomwalk101 View Post
Sling Shot Racing has this nice cap for the 250.

Thats what I have. Make things nice and clean
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Old August 12th, 2011, 09:23 AM   #115
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Kelly, where you at? Would appreciate your advice on response #109. Thanks!
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Old August 17th, 2011, 12:07 AM   #116
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Finally had a chance to remove a shim, so I'm only running one now. Idle is back to normal and no need for the choke. However, I still have a noticeable flat spot below 6k. I also rode my buddy's bike with the same exact set-up, except he has 2 shims, and his pulls notably stronger at the bottom end. Any thoughts? Stumped.
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Old September 14th, 2011, 02:12 PM   #117
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idk. this mod is being done to help reliability right? but deleting parts in my mind makes me think it would negatively effect engine life.

has anyone had any problems after doing this?
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Old September 14th, 2011, 09:57 PM   #118
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It's actually being done to compensate for issues stemming from opening up the engine airflow with a removed airbox and/or aftermarket exhaust systems. If you're not having minor backfires/popping on deceleration, I wouldn't worry about it.

That said, I haven't heard much/anything as far as major engine failures that can be directly linked to this. Usually the problems people experience are changes to the jetting needs due to the removal of an airflow path. Sometimes people find their bike runs better with the Kleen Air in place. Some folks have bikes that are happier without it.
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Old September 15th, 2011, 05:29 AM   #119
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natek,

I think Momaru is spot on. If you've changed to an aftermarket exhaust and/or removed the airbox, then you might as well pull out the kleen air system before you start re-jetting.

If you have a completely stock bike, then I see no reason at all to remove the kleen air system, and doing so may indeed result in problems if you don't adjust your jetting.

When I bought my bike, it already had an aftermarket full exhaust, and had been re-jetted to compensate for that. When I pulled the kleen air system out, the bike ran significantly worse.

I have since pulled the airbox and the kleen air system and fully re-jetted the carbs, and now everything runs just great.

In other words, if you're doing a significant amount of work (mainly removing the airbox) and re-jetting, then you might as well pull it off, if it's on now and your bike is running well with the stock airbox, then it's probably best to leave it alone.

Regards,
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Old September 15th, 2011, 08:59 AM   #120
natek
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Name: nathan
Location: Springfield IL
Join Date: Aug 2011

Motorcycle(s): Honda Ruckus

Posts: 35
i was kinda put on the fence about it after taking the time to read page 3. it makes sense that less air going into the engine would require some kind of a re-jet. i liked the idea of simplifying everything and having less things that could fail/ brake/ wear out..... also something to tinker with and talk about lol

i'll just follow along and see if this resolves itself.
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