600RR's as first motorcycles. Yea right..

[JeffM]

Let me preface what I am going to say with this: I consider myself an intermediate rider. I have around 4000 miles of experience spread over 4+ years in every type of weather including snow. Most of those 4000 miles have been commuting and canyon riding with a little of the old super slab thrown in. It doesn't seem like much but if you break it down using my commute distance, that is about +-750 days in the saddle in city traffic. I have crashed once.

Last weekend I road a 600 super sport for the first time and came to the conclusion that a new rider would surely get in over his or her head on such a bike. It would only be a matter of time. I'm sure you could ride one around town and show up at a bike night without much of a problem if you were very careful. However, I am sure, a beginner riding one of these will get bit one day.

There is a ton of temptation to do bad things on a 600RR. Smoothly twisting the throttle in 2nd gear at a relaxed 40mph resulted in 85mph in a matter of seconds with a really strong pull . Fun, yes. In a beginners hands I think it would be overwhelming . It would be so easy to override your skills on a bike like this. I could only imagine what a 1000RR would be like.

I know I'm preaching to the choir here but I am so glad I started on a 250 and resisted the temptation to get a stronger motorcycle even after a few years in the saddle.

[sombo]

+1000

I like going this particular site to see what people, not magazine editors, have to say about different bikes. I can't tell you how many reviews there are on bikes like the older 600's and katana's and such that label them as beginner bikes. Some of these "squids" even have the nerve to say "oh I'm not a speed freak or anything, but I grew tired of this bike in a few months of riding. I think I'm ready to move on to a bigger bike. If you're looking for a great starter bike to learn to ride this (katana, 2000-2002 ZX6R, etc) is a good ride."

When ever I read rider reviews like those I just shake my head and wonder what this country has let itself become. I truly wish we had some sort of tiered license system to force riders into small bikes. That way maybe alot of the peer pressure will vanish because everyone will have no choice but start on a 250 or 500.

I've only been riding since about May of 2009, and I've accumulated about 10k miles on my ninjette so far. But I don't feel the need for any size of supersport. I just don't feel comfortable with that much power available. I like bikes that are bit more tame and maybe a bit more versatile. I tried to make it down to Biketoberfest for some demo rides but got out there too late in the day. So come Bike Week in Daytona I am making plans on going out there at least twice to try and get on a couple of the 650's from Kawi, Suzuki, and Yami to see what they are like.

There's only 2 600's I'm interested in and that's the ZZR 600 (both the older model from the late 90's-2004 and the last one from 2005-2008), and the Katana.

I just don't see how people can possibly think that 120hp on a 450ish lb bike is good for a beginner. Why not just toss the keys of a Ferrari Enzo to a kid who just passed his license test? Sure, he can handle it, he's a big man and needs the power *Tim Allen grunt*.

[Flashmonkey]

First bike? Usually ill advised.....usually.

Starting out on a smaller bike then progressing quickly to something bigger? Sure..why not?

Based on my experience, the power isn't the only issue. It's the temperment of the bike vs the temperment of the rider. SS bikes do what they are told to do....with frightening precision. You put a yahoo on a bike like that and you have trouble. That's it.

[rwheelz]

A good friend of mine, who had NO riding experience whatsoever, not even dirt bikes as a kid, bought a brand new GSXR600 against my advice. He totaled it with 92 miles on the odometer. He wouldn't even take the safety course. He promised us all he would ride it slowly (under the speed limit), but after crashing admitted he had it up to 100mph on day 1. His exact words were: "I was fine going in a straight line, it was the corner that screwed me". He flipped over a guard rail, and luckily got away with a broken arm and no life-threatening injuries. The bike was financed and insurance paid it off, fortunately for him. He will never get on a bike again.

Clearly, modern day 600cc+ SS's are NOT beginner's bikes, by any stretch. That said, for experienced riders, a larger bike adds a new dimension to the riding experience. It isn't that I NEED the power the 9R provides, but it is fun to play with and it is also nice to have in traffic, out on the open highway, and even pulling out of turns when riding the twisties. Honestly, riding the bigger bikes makes you appreciate the smaller bikes that much more. Just because you have access to more power, doesn't mean you necessarily have to use it. It all comes down to personal responsibility.

[bob706]

Originally Posted by rwheelz

He totaled it with 92 miles on the odometer.

That is sickening

[setasai]

Originally Posted by bob706

That is sickening

Glad your friend made it out to talk about it. What happened to the bike? Such a shame since those things are such a beauty. I dont think I'll be getting one anytime soon but they're nice to look at.

[JeffM]

Originally Posted by kawboyCAFE

4,000 miles of experience? your a puppy. i have about 100,000 miles and 12 bikes under my belt over a 20 year span, and i would say that it doesnt matter what you get as your first bike if you are an idiot anyway. my very first road bike was a 1977 kz650 that would haul butt, and i never laid it down. but thats just me. it really doesnt matter if we think someone should get a bike or not, because they are going to anyway. some of them might do it just because we said not too, just to prove us wrong. some idiots can get hurt on a 50cc scooter.

Yep, and I will continue to be a smart puppy at that Hell, I haven't yet aquired the skill sets to ride my 250 to its potential. That is what bugs me about folks that think 600RR's are good first bikes. The learning curve on an RR is just too steep for many. Become a good rider first then move on to whatever trips your trigger or maybe realise that what you started with may be the best.

Why did you end up with a 250 after all that experience?

[SVBS]

Well, think of it this way,

beginner bike's = tic-tac-toe
600+ Supersport = Chess

For someone that never played before, they can pickup the rulebook and learn the rule of the game, will they be a pro in a short time ? definitely not with Chess, much longer and steeper learning curve, but then there's the Bobby Fischer of the Chess world as well.

I personally started on a CBR600 Hurricane, was it a good choice ? financially yes, as I was able to pick it up for chump change(bad cosmetic condition), I want a 250 Ninja, but nothing in my price range, put some miles on it, now I'm on a newer 600RR(noticed I stay in the family ), did I regret my decision ? no, if I could go back, i would probably wait and save up and get a 250 tho , as i said in one of my 1st welcoming post, I get a chance to try out an older 250ninja, and i would say that if i were to start on a 250, i would definitely out corner alot of guys that started out on 600+,

So the question of whether a 250 is suggested for beginner or not ? well, if you always something to prove then no, go get yourself a liter bike, or better yet, a hayabusa, but if you want to maximized your skills in the shortest amount of time instead of playing catch up with controlling the power of larger bike, a 250 is definitely a better platform for you.

Ride safe everybody

[spooph]

The first bike I rode, EVER was a 2001 ZX-6R. Perfect beginner bike for somebody!
The second bike I rode, EVER was a 197x CB550. Perfect beginner bike for somebody!
The third bike I rode, EVER was a 1993 Vulcan 1500. Perfect beginner bike for somebody!

Although I shake your sentiments Jeff concerning smaller bikes, I think Kawboy got it right. Doesn't matter kind of bike your on, if your a moron, your gonna do stupid stuff...

I'm a moron, so I started with a cruiser - Kawasaki Eliminator, WAY too much power, but with crap suspension and doo doo ground clearance, learned to be a reasonable rider. Then got tickled by a 1984 VF1000F, the pre-interceptor, and after plowing that into a mountain side (not completely all my fault, but mostly), learned a TON about myself. Went back to my Eliminator for a while, and then against everybody's better council, bought a 250. Now, just short of 80,000 miles in 5 years, since I started riding, I realize that save but a few situations, the 250 is more than enough for what one needs on the open road today. Suffice to say, I really want a 996, and I desperately want a 600 for the track (going fast is just fun, and climbing 2,000 feet in a few miles is no fun on the 250), but I'm loving my 250 more and more, day by day. I have reasons up the yin yang, and nobody wants to read my ramble.....

So, as I've found it, different strokes for different folks. "I'm ready for a bigger bike" - think to yourself what you will, nod and smile, and just take the insults, cause it's your life, your bike, and your enjoyment, and somebody could only tear my 250 from "my cold dead hands".... if I don't get buried with it.... I can't wait for next season, I want to head to Utah.... I've seen pics, and you guys have some sick roads...

Also, have you ever noticed how you can just be yourself around 250 folk? Or shall I call it small bike folk? They're in it for the fun, for the daily experience, not for the looks, reputation or whatever, at least not nearly as much as the big bike crowd. And that's it, that's the 250... Just plain fun, no extra work in maintaining an image, or in maintaining the bike. So, let me miss-quote Queen: "Get on your bikes and ride!"

[JeffM]

Originally Posted by spooph

Also, have you ever noticed how you can just be yourself around 250 folk? Or shall I call it small bike folk? They're in it for the fun, for the daily experience, not for the looks, reputation or whatever, at least not nearly as much as the big bike crowd. And that's it, that's the 250... Just plain fun, no extra work in maintaining an image, or in maintaining the bike. So, let me miss-quote Queen: "Get on your bikes and ride!"

True. I've also met quite a few riders, on any style or size of bike, that truly respect our 250's and those who choose to ride them.

Be sure to look us up when you come to Utah.

[Cab305]

Dude you don't even understand here in South Florida on the Sport Bike Forum, at least once a week some new guy shows up asking if he should get a liter bike to start. They actually try to justify how a 600 is not enough. "my friends have this, or that" "I need to keep up" "I'll be real careful".... Meanwhile every single person on forum tells then to get a 650r or even a 250. Half the time some wise ass will make fun of them and we'll never see them again.

Till they pop up on the news, for all the wrong reasons.

[JeffM]

Originally Posted by kawboyCAFE

i wanted something that would be good as a daily commuter. far as i'm concerned the ninja 250 is the perfect bike for me. cheap on insurance, cheap on gas, and fun to ride. plus, i just really like the looks of the new ninja 250. as for fast bikes, been there & done that. now i just like to ride normal, except for the twisties.

plus, alot of people wind up coming back to the ninja 250 after a while. dont they?

Couldn't agree more. The Ninja 250 is a stunning overachever and easy on the wallet. Maybe a thread should be started as to why folks end up with a Ninja 250 after riding all sorts of other bikes.

Do you think that todays performance bikes are too much of a good thing? I lust after them just like the next guy; however, I would love to see more lower powered sport bikes come to the market. Bikes with decent suspensions vs. price-point gear.

[JS73]

This is a very good post. It reminds me of...well, me. My first bike was an R6. I rode it on the streets for about a year with no problems, because I did not need to keep up with anyone and do stupid sh!t, just enjoy the ride.

That being said, when I did my first track day and got a chance to start opening it up, I discovered real quick that this bike was not to be triffled with or taken lightly and could get me into a lot of trouble really fast. Neddless to say I wadded it up when I low sided and destroyed the bike as it flipped when it got into the dirt.

I went a few years without a ride, until the new generation Ninjette came around. A few people thought I was nuts for getting a 250, but this bike has been probably the best $4k I have ever spent. Rode it on the street for about a year and then turned it into a track bike.

Many of the Jennings GP control riders, as well as others that have been doing this for much longer than me, have said I did the right thing and that learning to go fast on a slow bike will only make me a safer and better rider when I step up to a bigger machine.

I could not agree more, this bike has taught me a lot and I'm sure it has much more to teach me.

So forget what the Thrusday Bike Night poser "Look at my hot litter bike" crowd says. Know that you have done the right thing by starting small.

Be safe and enjoy the ride.

[Soujyu]

Let's put it this way, from my beginner's point of view.

I've put almost 10,000 miles on my 250R. It's my first bike. I still can't control the bike worth a . Should I even try to go for a 600? I don't think so!

[SCREEM]

Originally Posted by JeffM

or maybe realise that what you started with may be the best.

nice.....the 250 is a fantastic bike, I can't think of one I like more to ride My Connie has only got 600 miles this season the ninja bumped it from a 1400 mile trip, although I should have used the connie

[wvninja]

It all comes down to responsibility. You do stupid things sure stupid things happen. Pure logic no questions asked. Its no a bike everyone should start out on, but that doesnt mean someone couldnt do it. I'm sure there are plenty of people who should start out smaller. When it comes to advising I always suggest a 250 or 500 as a beginning bike. The problem is most of these retards we here about go out and buy a fast bike (600 +) because the want to go fast and look good doing it. 2 very wrong reason to ever own a bike. It's like a 16yro going out and buying a GTR for his first car. Sure I bet 1 in 50 (guess) could handle owning a car like that and respect it, but the other 49 will end up a statistic.

[wvninja]

Originally Posted by Soujyu

Let's put it this way, from my beginner's point of view.

I've put almost 10,000 miles on my 250R. It's my first bike. I still can't control the bike worth a . Should I even try to go for a 600? I don't think so!

Bike size will NEVER make up for lack of ability.

[SCREEM]

Originally Posted by wvninja

Bike size will NEVER make up for lack of ability.

but, lack of torque helps for someone new to the sport.

[rockNroll]

eh, lots of people I know started on 600cc and liter bikes and they're doin fine. It's a person to person basis. Some people are "mature" enough and some aren't.


if you've put 10,000 miles on your bike and really still can't control it well, motorcycles just aren't for you and you really need to get rid of the bike before you die on it. I'm guessin you were just bein funny though

[Soujyu]

Originally Posted by rockNroll

if you've put 10,000 miles on your bike and really still can't control it well, motorcycles just aren't for you and you really need to get rid of the bike before you die on it. I'm guessin you were just bein funny though

Well, both funny and serious.

[sugarbear]

I can add my 2 cents worth as a rider who went from a 1150cc to a 250cc.
It's a fact that I actually enjoy the 250 more than the bigger bike!
The ease of shifting/handling is a huge bonus for the Ninja. Being able to put both feet firmly on the ground gives me a secure, warm fuzzy feeling
Seriously, for a street bike, what more do you need than a sweet looking sportbike that can do 100 mph? Sure, there are times when I "might" like to have quicker acceleration and I consider something bigger than the 250, but do I "need" it? Nope.
I can honestly say that I have learned MORE from riding the 250 than I ever did on the 1150. Mostly because I have never felt as comfortable on the 1150.

[peachdiddy]

I have a good friend who crashed on a Nighthawk, first time rider, no gear, no permit or license. He now thinks it's a good idea to go with a 600 super sport bike. A fun way to die, I guess?

[Nemesis]

I started on a 600cc.

Probably explains why I suck at riding/racing.

[rockNroll]

Originally Posted by nemesis

i started on a 600cc.

Probably explains why i suck at riding/racing.

lol!

[SVBS]

Originally Posted by kawboyCAFE

i wanted something that would be good as a daily commuter. far as i'm concerned the ninja 250 is the perfect bike for me. cheap on insurance, cheap on gas, and fun to ride. plus, i just really like the looks of the new ninja 250. as for fast bikes, been there & done that. now i just like to ride normal, except for the twisties.

plus, alot of people wind up coming back to the ninja 250 after a while. dont they?

Please don't even go there, you don't need large displacement for twisties , I've seen guys here in SD that dissappeared through twisties on their lil 250, the larger displacement barely keep up, the only real reason I see that anyone want a large displacement is freeway usage, they'll leave the 250 behind (until they come upon a turns of course )

[Sailariel]

Jeff, You make a good point about the ability to master the Ninjette. It would take many years and lots of miles to ride one like a pro. The 250R is basically a Track Bike. It is unlike any 250 currently available to the general public. True, it makes a great commuter, street bike, even ,by a long stretch, in my opinion, a beginner's bike. I consider the Honda Rebel, Yamaha 250, and Suzuki 250 beginner's bikes--and they are great bikes--all of them. The Ninjette is definitely not in that crowd. It is a Sportbike in all respects and should be treated as such. I'll concede that it is an entry level Sportbike, and that still puts it in another class given what is offered here (in the US). I have been riding 50 years and have logged an excess of 350,000mi. I have NOT mastered the Ninjette by a long shot. Just sit back, look at the bike, and think. There is nothing on this planet like it.

[SVBS]

Originally Posted by kawboyCAFE

uhh...okaayy? i was complimenting the 250 with the twisties comment. i have a ninja 250, and it is fun in the twisties. i guess something about my comment upset you, but i dont know what, considering you said basically the same thing i did.

sorry bro, misread your comment, thought you meant that a person need a 600+ to enjoy the twisties...

my bad

[TrueFader]

i started on a 2007 gsxr 600 personally and racked up over 9k on it in the year i had it. they work just fine for learning. before i bought it i was nervous but a friend told me that when i first get it i'll be scared of it and wont go fast. he was right, i eased in. and yes the learning curve might be larger, but the grade is all your choosing. but fastest to the top wins

[Racer x]

I started with a zzr 600 . I wish I still had it .(I like my 250 better) But It was a great bike. And I moved up to a bigger bike soon enough . Then after learning to ride .I got a 250 .

[rwheelz]

Originally Posted by setasai

Glad your friend made it out to talk about it. What happened to the bike? Such a shame since those things are such a beauty. I dont think I'll be getting one anytime soon but they're nice to look at.

When he hit the guard rail it bent the frame. The thing was really smashed up too in terms of the plastics and bars. He paid over $9k for it at the time, and 92 miles later, worthless. I was just glad he was ok. I didn't even say "I told you so", but it was my first thought. I wasn't even surprised when I got the call.

[Nemesis]

Sorry but I have to disagree with...well, basically everything.

Originally Posted by Sailariel

Jeff, You make a good point about the ability to master the Ninjette. It would take many years and lots of miles to ride one like a pro.

On a 600 yes but on a 250R? Um, not really. On the 250R, the difference between a pro vs you is the size of your balls. Pardon the expression.

Originally Posted by Sailariel

The 250R is basically a Track Bike. It is unlike any 250 currently available to the general public. True, it makes a great commuter, street bike, even ,by a long stretch, in my opinion, a beginner's bike. I consider the Honda Rebel, Yamaha 250, and Suzuki 250 beginner's bikes--and they are great bikes--all of them. The Ninjette is definitely not in that crowd.

The 250 is the most basic/beginner's bike as you can get IME. Nothing about the bike screams, "TOO MUCH POWER...CAN'T CONTROL BIKE." You can pin the throttle wide open in the turns and still not be able to spin up the rear.

Originally Posted by Sailariel

It is a Sportbike in all respects and should be treated as such. I'll concede that it is an entry level Sportbike, and that still puts it in another class given what is offered here (in the US). I have been riding 50 years and have logged an excess of 350,000mi. I have NOT mastered the Ninjette by a long shot. Just sit back, look at the bike, and think. There is nothing on this planet like it.

Not directed at you but there is a huge difference between a street rider vs. a trackday rider/racer. IMO, a street rider who uses the bike for commuting purposes will most likely never "master"...I don't like the use of that word...let's use "push" instead...will most likely never "push" the bike to it's limit because they're barely tapping into the power or what the bike is capable of doing on the streets. And rightly so since they should be abiding by the speed laws.

The 250 looks and feels sporty but in no means is it a "track bike". But that's not to say you can't make it into a track bike.

The 250 is a great entry level bike but even more fun on the track.