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Old January 20th, 2014, 10:56 AM   #41
SabreValkyrn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TnNinjaGirl View Post
scrrerrcccchhhhh.... back up

Each time the stator passes by the pickup it creates an electrical pulse that travels through a few components and finally to the spark plug(s).
Ah, and the stator rotates (relative to engine shaft); and causes those electrical pulses. But since the starter isn't engaging the engine, that doesn't happen?

EDIT (new picture):
Ah, that picture makes sense, that cable goes under the clutch cover, and up by the rear brake reservoir. Both ends have a rubber boot of sorts, and that is plugged in. Sweet, thanks for the electrical help!

Any ideas on the starter clutch gear? It's definitely supposed to connect to the bushing.

Starter motor microfiche and part number 16085 definitely seem to be one piece, and not 2; as it is now.
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Old January 20th, 2014, 11:01 AM   #42
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Your stator should plug directly into the ignitor box.

Don't confuse the stator (right side) with the generator (left side). In fact the stator (right side) may be called another name that I am not aware of but it's job is to produce electricity for the spark plugs.

The generator (left side) creates electricity for the rest of the electrical system such as the lights and battery charging.
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Old January 20th, 2014, 11:04 AM   #43
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If a starter isn't lining up with the starter gear then the bendix may not be engaging properly. The starter may not be spinning fast enough or is worn out in some other way.

This video may help. My computer doesn't have speakers but it shows you visibly how the starter motor engages the starter ring.

Link to original page on YouTube.

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Old January 20th, 2014, 11:38 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SabreValkyrn View Post
Yes, brand new ignition cylinder that came with keys. Key is on and turns, verified power via horn before trying to start.

The engine is not being rotated by the starter. My guess is the dangling gear off the center shaft is sort of important.

How does... things know the engine is spinning before it tries to spark?
From your photo I would have to guess that that part you highlighted is the starter sprag or sometimes called a "one way clutch". Its purpose is to allow the sterter motor to spin the engine but not to allow the engine to spin the starter motor. If it fails or is installed backwards the engine will not spin via the starter motor.
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Old January 20th, 2014, 11:42 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TnNinjaGirl View Post
If a starter isn't lining up with the starter gear then the bendix may not be engaging properly. The starter may not be spinning fast enough or is worn out in some other way.

This video may help. My computer doesn't have speakers but it shows you visibly how the starter motor engages the starter ring.

Link to original page on YouTube.

CB, nothing like a women who enjoys mechanical stuff ! That vid is of a boat motor and is no typical of whats found on our bikes. All of the drive mechanism on the motorcycle starter are constantly meshed.
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Old January 20th, 2014, 11:45 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce71198 View Post
CB, nothing like a women who enjoys mechanical stuff ! That vid is of a boat motor and is no typical of whats found on our bikes. All of the drive mechanism on the motorcycle starter are constantly meshed.
Guys don't actually like it in real life. Or at least I haven't found one yet.

I've seen several types on bikes.

Some with a bendix/sprang

Some with a flat gear except for a few teeth

Some with a one way bearing on the starter ring

This one has the one way bearing? Not trying to confuse the OP. Sorry if I have.
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Old January 20th, 2014, 11:53 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TnNinjaGirl View Post
Don't confuse the stator (right side) with the generator (left side)
I believe we're on the same page with this part.
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Old January 20th, 2014, 11:57 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce71198 View Post
From your photo I would have to guess that that part you highlighted is the starter sprag or sometimes called a "one way clutch". Its purpose is to allow the sterter motor to spin the engine but not to allow the engine to spin the starter motor. If it fails or is installed backwards the engine will not spin via the starter motor.
The one-way clutch portion only rotates one-way, and has no wear on it; so I think that portion is fine.

There is the fat sprocket, which the cam chain goes around. This 'fat sprocket' also holds the rollers for the the one-way clutch functionality. The large gear has a bushing that fits inside of said one-way clutch, you can see the helical groove in the example pic.

The gear and bushing are no longer connected.

Example pic of assembly together

Starter head/gear goes into transmission, which spins a gear, which then spins the starter clutch gear (in my color-outlined picture); which lives around the secondary shaft and is supposed to engage the engine.
Said starter clutch gear is hanging on the secondary shaft and doesn't connect with anything. Pretty sure the bushing inside the sprag was broken off of the starter clutch gear itself.
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Old January 20th, 2014, 08:29 PM   #49
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The rear axle was in bad shape. The axle head was chewed to a pretty circle. Cut it off with a hacksaw. I supported the tire as best as I could, but that axle head jettisoned off once I cut through.

I'm SO glad I was right next to a wall, and not beside Ivy.

Cut off the chain, it had no master link. Which means it was the stock chain, right?

Joined the transmission breather and engine head breather hoses into a T with an air filter on it. I'm planning on shortening the hoses and routing it underneath the tail/seat in a protected area. But as of now, well; let's just say there were some horse jokes made.

Brake lever was broken off at the end, luckily I had my stock 250 brake lever still and was able to replace with that.

I ordered a pull throttle cable, because mine was massively worn in all the places and connected by 2 stands in the throttle handle. Too bad I was thinking too literally and didn't look for a "push" cable; which is what I actually needed. So, I have a spare pull throttle cable for a zx00c. Yay me.

Also ordered a shift lever, the current one is broken off about 1/2 way and seems filed down to a lovely point, with a crappily centered hole in it.

The radiator is hanging oddly right now, to make room for headers, but we cut the radiator cap hoses down a bunch. Still same horizontal level, just brought a lot closer in; instead of sticking out a good 6 inches in front of the forks.

I've put $778 total into her, including the bike itself. I estimate I'll need around $1400 into her before she is done.

Last futzed with by SabreValkyrn; January 20th, 2014 at 08:32 PM. Reason: Added pictures
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Old January 22nd, 2014, 08:45 PM   #50
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Awaiting numerous parts to get here this week, so I thought I'd start removing the bedliner covering the tank.

I'm covering the bedliner with spray-on aircraft paint stripper, then using soldering iron with a razor blade decal stripper tool to scrape off what I can.

Here's round one. That isn't rust on the front, just camera funkiness.

Had to stop because my heat stripper gun thing was very worn out.
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Old January 22nd, 2014, 11:23 PM   #51
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Wow, nice work so far. Can't wait to see how it progresses.
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Old January 23rd, 2014, 09:27 PM   #52
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I'm almost finished with the tank, unfortunately I am out of paint stripper and will be gone all weekend.

Also took the brake calipers off; the front brake pads have plenty of pad left and look in good condition.

The rear caliper is different. It only has the big brake pad, which explains the horrendous screeching sound whenever we rolled her.

Brake fluid is supposed to be rust-red, right?

I got the shift lever in, but won't be able to replace the broken one until next week; can't move the bike due to no rear axle/wheel.

Still waiting on Push throttle cable, rear axle, and oil pan gasket, and starter clutch.

The starter clutch auction ends on Sunday night, and is the only one on ebay. If I lose the auction, I get to buy a new gear for $63; instead of $30 for the whole starter clutch.

As a side note, paint stripper is irritable to skin.

Last futzed with by SabreValkyrn; January 23rd, 2014 at 09:59 PM. Reason: typo
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Old January 23rd, 2014, 09:32 PM   #53
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Super impressed with this undertaking. Looks like you are doing a great job and this is going to be a sweet little bike.
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Old January 26th, 2014, 06:50 PM   #54
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@SabreValkyrn I had the opportunity to work on 2 bikes the other day that had the exact same problem as your no spark issue. Incidentally I learned how that type of starter gear works too. On both of the bikes the one way bearing inside the starter gear was damaged. On one the sprang wasn't locking the pawls down and on the other the pawls were worn flat. It turns out the starter clutch can wear. One of the bikes was an '05 and the other was an '09.

Anywho... not sure if you won the auction and got the new gear but I wanted to check in and see how progress was going.
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Old January 26th, 2014, 10:50 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TnNinjaGirl View Post
...On one the sprang wasn't locking the pawls down and on the other the pawls were worn flat. It turns out the starter clutch can wear. One of the bikes was an '05 and the other was an '09.

Anywho... not sure if you won the auction and got the new gear but I wanted to check in and see how progress was going.
I did in fact win the auction earlier today

I've made sure my sprag is functional, there's almost no wear at all on any part of the bike, other than some denting and starter clutch gear.

From everything I know and can research, I'm sure the bike has under 8k miles; just aged horribly... but aged well. It's so confusing, I think the starter clutch gear broke after a low speed fall; then a bunch of owners with less than an idea of what to do started tearing into her.

Starter Clutch ETA is 29th-11th. I'm really excited to hear her purr.
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Old January 27th, 2014, 06:21 AM   #56
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Great news everyone!

Excited to see this thing come together
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Old January 27th, 2014, 12:03 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TnNinjaGirl View Post
@SabreValkyrn I had the opportunity to work on 2 bikes the other day that had the exact same problem as your no spark issue. Incidentally I learned how that type of starter gear works too. On both of the bikes the one way bearing inside the starter gear was damaged. On one the sprang wasn't locking the pawls down and on the other the pawls were worn flat. It turns out the starter clutch can wear. One of the bikes was an '05 and the other was an '09.

Anywho... not sure if you won the auction and got the new gear but I wanted to check in and see how progress was going.
I'm curious, do you work on bikes for a living?
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Old January 27th, 2014, 02:30 PM   #58
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Technically, no
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Old January 27th, 2014, 11:16 PM   #59
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Done stripping the tank!

Pictures are of stripped tank, primed tank, and mound of shop towels I used to wipe off the bed liner. I need to do some dent recovery, but just leaving primed for now; also not sure what color I'm going for.

Also cleaned off the old oil pan gasket, have a new one ready to take its place.

And as a helpful note to future readers, paint stripper is irritable to skin.

I also got the rear axle in, and it looks good.

Starter clutch should be here on Thursday, which gives me a couple days to clean up my horrendous mess in my work area.

I've decided on a chopped tail and conventional round headlight as the primary design. I hope to get a mock up of what I'm aiming for within a week or so.
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Old January 28th, 2014, 09:37 AM   #60
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Old January 29th, 2014, 08:45 PM   #61
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Quick update.
Got starter clutch off ebay.

Tore everything apart. Again.

Replaced existing sprag springs with the less-worn ones from the ebay sprag.

Replaced starter clutch.

Got everything back together and buttoned up, again.

Filled up coolant, again.

Replaced shift lever.

Just have oil pan, oil filter, oil, headers, and exhaust left. After that, I'll pray a bit. Then a bit more. Then give her a start. ...Again.
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Last futzed with by SabreValkyrn; January 30th, 2014 at 08:41 PM. Reason: Added shift lever picture
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Old January 29th, 2014, 08:48 PM   #62
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Haha that's just part of it. You forget all about it once you are done and enjoying your ride
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Old January 29th, 2014, 11:20 PM   #63
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Got the oil pan bolted on, and then I realized I forgot the O-ring.

Unbolted it, again:P

Fit seal, and bolted everything together.

Filled up oil, hooked up headers and exhaust and... nothing.

Blown fuse.

And I have no spare 10A fuses left to diagnose the issue. Picking up a pack tomorrow.
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Old January 30th, 2014, 08:46 AM   #64
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Steal one out of a car- you can't keep us waiting like that!
Seriously great work so far- major props to you for having the patience to bring her back... can't wait to hear her fire up.
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Old January 30th, 2014, 08:39 PM   #65
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Fuse problem: had a headlight lead plugged into the aux lighting thingy.

TL;DR, got her to backfire. Need to replace sprag springs; they are too weak to fully turn the engine.

Ordered sprag springs from bike bandit. Also ordered some of the staked screws behind the clutch that are very well loved because of this process.



Pictures are of my portion of the garage, comes with complimentary housemate's boxspring! And how Scrappy looks now.

*Goes to be a Pirate in Black Flag*
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Old February 3rd, 2014, 02:05 PM   #66
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Dude, I know stripping the tank was a massive pain, but omg it looks a thousand times better even with just primer. Can't wait to see it (relatively) dent-free and shiny again.

You're so close!
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Old February 3rd, 2014, 03:08 PM   #67
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I give you much credit. I would've scrapped the bike lol
I like bikes that are messed up but misty there

You are ressurecting the dead lol
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Old February 4th, 2014, 02:17 PM   #68
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Sprag springs and oil pump screws should be here on Thursday.

Front wiring harness should be here on Monday.

Also hoping to drain fluids then re-route wiring, air, and coolant hoses this weekend. "This weekend" may turn into "the night I get sprag stuff".
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Old February 6th, 2014, 06:52 PM   #69
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Got the front wiring harness, sprag springs, and oil pump screws.

Won't be able to work on her until Saturday afternoon or Sunday.
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Old February 6th, 2014, 07:44 PM   #70
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Looking forward to the next update. Hopefully she'll be ready for spring
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Old February 9th, 2014, 02:07 PM   #71
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UPDATE 1
  • Removed wiring harness
  • Repaired wiring harness. Extended ground cable and repaired a cut wire to the fuse box.
  • Drained coolant

UPDATE 2:
  • Re-routed throttle and choke cables
  • Replaced push throttle cable. Still need to mess with tightness, the throttle is really sticky.

UPDATE 3:
  • Sent in a public disclosure request for her history. Hopefully can learn something about her past.

UPDATE 4:
  • Hooked up wiring harness with nice routing
  • Found spot for battery to sit, just needs a little horizontal support
  • Terminated all ground wires with proper connectors, and shrink wrapped the junctions. Looks so much nicer.

UPDATE 5 - Last for today:
  • Drained oil
  • Removed oil filter and pan
  • Removed clutch cover bolts

About 6 hours of work today. The wiring looks a lot nicer now.

Last futzed with by SabreValkyrn; February 9th, 2014 at 08:39 PM. Reason: Update 5
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Old February 10th, 2014, 01:11 PM   #72
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Got a response for my records disclosure request.

So, it changed hands to PO on 06/05/2013.

Then I got it from PO on 11/06/2013.

Title says 4000 or 4600 miles, which was presumably hand-copied over from the previous title of unknown date.

So, that didn't tell much at all.
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Old February 10th, 2014, 06:55 PM   #73
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Another round. To get the sprag out. Again.

UPDATE 1:
  • Removed clutch cover
  • Removed clutch
  • Removed water pump. Nasty stuff keeps coming out with it, same with the oil.

UPDATE 2:
FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF FFFFFFFFFFFF.
One of the oil pump screws stripped right away. The one I was worried about came out without a fuss.
FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF FFFFFFFFFFFF.

UPDATE 3:
HA! **** you screw. Meet slightly-too-big flat head and Mr. Hammer

UPDATE 4:
Can I be done with oil stuff now? Please?
  • Put clutch and clutch cover back on
  • Oil pan and oil filter back on
  • Rear tire back on
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File Type: jpg P_20140210_183046.jpg (67.9 KB, 2 views)

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Old February 10th, 2014, 09:51 PM   #74
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SHE'S ALIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
And sounds really nice.

I'll upload a video tomorrow, it just started dumping rain.

Going to order tail light, headlight, turn signals, mirrors, tires, cluster, and brake pads.
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Old February 10th, 2014, 10:31 PM   #75
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Congrats Sabre! Nice work. I am impressed!
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Old February 10th, 2014, 10:53 PM   #76
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Excellent! Way to go. Nice rescue. Can't wait to see the video.
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Old February 10th, 2014, 10:58 PM   #77
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Location: Bellingham, wa
Join Date: Mar 2012

Motorcycle(s): 2017 Motus MSTR (Kara), 1990 Ninja 600R (ZX600C3) (Scrappy)

Posts: 185
Thanks for the encouragement

Just ordered Tail light, instrument cluster, turn signals, and bar end mirrors.

Guess which spring was the new one.
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Last futzed with by SabreValkyrn; February 11th, 2014 at 10:38 AM.
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Old February 17th, 2014, 02:13 PM   #78
SabreValkyrn
ninjette.org member
 
Name: Joel
Location: Bellingham, wa
Join Date: Mar 2012

Motorcycle(s): 2017 Motus MSTR (Kara), 1990 Ninja 600R (ZX600C3) (Scrappy)

Posts: 185
I had troubles with the number 1 intake valve, so I wanted to check that before starting her again.
  • Drained coolant
  • Removed hoses and wires from above valve cover
  • Removed valve cover

The valve adjustment screws on number 1 intake are really really loose. My hunch was right. Gorramit. They were the first ones I did, and had a heck of a time adjusting it. The left hand adjustment screw's locknut was up past the threads so I had to remove the whole screw and locknut and break the nut free.

And it's that stupid <2mm square head nonsense too. So, I need to rescue the locknuts or get replacements. Or just tighten them down a ton. The rest of the intake, and exhaust, valves were still secure.
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Old February 17th, 2014, 03:54 PM   #79
SabreValkyrn
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Name: Joel
Location: Bellingham, wa
Join Date: Mar 2012

Motorcycle(s): 2017 Motus MSTR (Kara), 1990 Ninja 600R (ZX600C3) (Scrappy)

Posts: 185
Solved the intake valve issue by sticking the large feeler gauge in and cranking the locknuts down. Put her all back together and put together a little video for you.

The promised video of her running:

Link to original page on YouTube.

I started her up again after ending the video, she ran wonderfully; then got hot enough to start circulating coolant. Turns out the left coolant hose doesn't have a good seal. Basically had a bunch of coolant spill into the two left spark plugs.

Currently, when I push the starter; the engine spins wonderfully; but no rumble. I'm hoping this is due to said coolant leak and not a spontaneously compression-less engine.


Last futzed with by SabreValkyrn; February 17th, 2014 at 05:43 PM.
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Old February 17th, 2014, 06:04 PM   #80
SabreValkyrn
ninjette.org member
 
Name: Joel
Location: Bellingham, wa
Join Date: Mar 2012

Motorcycle(s): 2017 Motus MSTR (Kara), 1990 Ninja 600R (ZX600C3) (Scrappy)

Posts: 185
Hm.

Cleaned up most of the coolant on top of the engine, the spark plug recesses seem dry.

Now, the engine basically doesn't have compression. I can almost turn it manually without a socket wrench.

Maybe the spark plugs loosened or something and leaking compression?

She has 1/2 sight glass filled with oil when cold, so I don't think she overheated and blew rings during the time it took to film the video.

Any ideas?
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