The dangers of polyester protective gear

[dimeified]

I did a search and didn't really find anything on this forum on the topic, but i think it should be discussed and possibly a sticky because newer riders who are uninformed may buy gear that isn't in their best interest. There are several sources out there speaking on the dangers of riding with protective gear made from polyester. Supposedly once the material heats up, it can bond and fuse itself to any surface, namely your skin, which has you in the ER, doctors peeling polyester skin sheets off your muscles, and receiving skin grafts instead of walking away from the scene of the accident unharmed. I am by no means an expert on this topic, but some of you are, and i would like you to post in here your thoughts of what brands and materials to select or to stay away from. I just noticed my mesh jacket is 100% polyester, i wish i had known about this before i bought it so i could have saved my money. Thoughts...

[bob706]

Polyester jacket = better than nothing. I would think that you would have to slide across a pretty good length of pavement for that stuff to melt to your skin. I personally like my leather jacket over my mesh jacket even though it can get uncomfortably warm at stop lights.

[SteveL]

Polyester only becomes a problem in a fire when like other man made fabrics melts; I don’t see how it’s an issue on a bike.

Steve

[Greg_E]

How many racing suits are made out of polyester?

[SF-Dug]

Originally Posted by Greg_E

How many racing suits are made out of polyester?

None that I know of but I maybe wrong.

High quality racing suits are made out of leather because it provides the best protection against abrasion especially when you are barreling down a straightaway at 120+ miles an hour.

As for mesh jackets they are a joke IMHO. They do not provide adequate protection in a crash. There are some mesh jackets that have a outer shell that is supposed to provide the abrasion protection. Of course if you remove that protective outer layer on a hot day you are then riding without any protection against abrasion.

Do not expect a mesh jacket to work as well as a full protective jacket with armor inserts made out of proven anti-abrasive material such as leather, textiles such as Aramid (Kevlar) or other materials designed to protect against abrasion.

[Alex]

If a rider finds themselves on fire, he's going to have a bad day no matter what they are wearing. If the fear is that the polyester will heat up so much that it will melt and bond en masse to your skin, not to worry. Not a valid fear. I've had the pleasure of witnessing any number of riders sliding down the road in all types of gear, and I've never seen any significant melting, and not a single rider caught on fire while sliding along.

In terms of maximum protection against abrasion and injury, I don't think anyone would argue with:

Leather > Textile > T-shirt > naked.

Personally I stick with the first two.

[ASecretNinja]

Originally Posted by SF-Dug

As for mesh jackets they are a joke IMHO. They do not provide adequate protection in a crash. There are some mesh jackets that have a outer shell that is supposed to provide the abrasion protection. Of course if you remove that protective outer layer on a hot day you are then riding without any protection again abrasion.

Do not expect a mesh jacket to work as well as a full protective jacket with armor inserts made out of proven anti-abrasive material such as leather, textiles such as Aramid (Kevlar) or other materials designed to protect against abrasion.

You've been grossly misinformed about mesh (or textile) jackets. Most (if not all) of the higher quality ones have the same armor zones that nice leather jackets have: elbows, shoulders, and a back protector. Some even have CE Knox certified armor, the same good stuff that comes in quality leather ones. I know this because I have been extensively shopping around for a mesh one because I've been roasting in my leather one this summer.

Thankfully I've never had to test it out, but the main difference in collision protection between a quality textile jacket and a leather counterpart, is that the textile won't hold up during as many collisions (between one and three[if you're lucky]). But if you're repeatedly laying down your bike on the street in the first place, there is a good chance that you need to choose a different hobby.

[ASecretNinja]

Originally Posted by Alex

In terms of maximum protection against abrasion and injury, I don't think anyone would argue with:

Leather > Textile > T-shirt > naked.

Personally I stick with the first two.

Alex, how are all the squids on Gixxers supposed to show off their guns if they gotta wear a T-shirt?!?!

[Alex]

Of course! The ubiquitious "wife-beater" style shirt should sit directly to the right of the T-Shirt in that safety continuum.

[Broom]

Originally Posted by Alex

In terms of maximum protection against abrasion and injury, I don't think anyone would argue with:

Leather > Textile > T-shirt > naked.

Personally I stick with the first two.

i think that theres a good argument that T-shirt = naked
and jeans > naked for about 1 foot of pavement, then you basically are naked.

[cifex]

I was under the impression that mesh and textile were not the same thing. Is this incorrect?

[Purspeed]

The OP is correct. There are several testimonies online from motorcycle riders who have worn polyester-type materials that have melted into their skin. From what I have read Under Armour is the culprit.

If you want super-thin, pajama-like leathers, find some Kushitanis.

Polymers have low thermal conductivity (like our skin), and so they heat up and melt rapidly. That's why you do not powdercoat headers and exhaust manifolds. Yes, yes, there are some powdercoats that can go up to 400+ degrees and the technology is rapidly changing, but do your homework.

This is from WebBikeWorld:

"So what's so special about Under Armour? I honestly don't believe they use any double-naught, double-special-secret fabrics or anything like that, although I think they'd like you to believe so. The fancifully-named "PolyArmour" material seems to be a type of poly-something-or-other -- polypropylene maybe? "

[Broom]

Originally Posted by cifex

I was under the impression that mesh and textile were not the same thing. Is this incorrect?

i guess they are both considered textile, but you can have a solid textile jacket, or one that is mesh that air flows through

[Alex]

The Kushitani stuff is pretty good; I do use their one piece mesh liner underneath my leathers on track, and it makes it much easier to not only get the leathers on and off, but also for them to move appropriately (but not too much) while you're moving around on the bike.

I'd be curious about any links folks could share about gear melting under harsh use sliding along the road. Interesting to hear about the poly underarmor causing issues, but having a hard time understanding how so much heat was created to affect the underarmor that quickly to cause it to melt underneath the outer layer.

[Broom]

never heard of under armour melting at the track, but its not that often that we spend prolong periods of time sliding on the pavement... but if it was a risk, or if it had happened on the track/street before i'd think word would get out not to wear it... cause Lots of people wear under armour at the track

[SF-Dug]

Originally Posted by ASecretNinja

You've been grossly misinformed about mesh (or textile) jackets. Most (if not all) of the higher quality ones have the same armor zones that nice leather jackets have: elbows, shoulders, and a back protector. Some even have CE Knox certified armor, the same good stuff that comes in quality leather ones. I know this because I have been extensively shopping around for a mesh one because I've been roasting in my leather one this summer.

Thankfully I've never had to test it out, but the main difference in collision protection between a quality textile jacket and a leather counterpart, is that the textile won't hold up during as many collisions (between one and three[if you're lucky]). But if you're repeatedly laying down your bike on the street in the first place, there is a good chance that you need to choose a different hobby.

Textiles such as Aramid and other derivatives work well. This is not something I will argue against and I did not belittle the nature of the armor found in good textile jackets. I own a textile jacket and I like it but it is also full blown jacket. The design and nature of some of the materials used in many Mesh jackets are a joke period. Some of these mesh jackets may provide slightly better protection then a regular street jacket due to the armor in them but not by much compared to a full blown textile or leather jacket. If you trust your skin to a mesh jacket designed primarily to provide comfort in hot weather rather then safety first then be my guest.

[capt_bugaloo]

Every crash is different. It's not like there is an on-off level of protection, where if you wear one type of gear you are full-protected, whereas if you wear something else your body will be obliterated.

Assess the riding you will be doing, and wear the appropriate kit. If I'm riding a short distance across town at 35 mph, the type of gear I wear will be different from what I'll wear while scooting down the freeway at 70 mph.

Have a variety of riding gear that you can mix and match, and wear what is appropriate for the situation.

[rockNroll]

Originally Posted by Alex

I've never seen any significant melting, and not a single rider caught on fire while sliding along.

Oh man! I can't be the only one who had a vision of a biker sliding along the pavement with flames bursting off him


My opinion is that textiles are usually "one use only" when they go down whereas leathers can often times be used again. Textiles don't keep the armor located as well while you're sliding, flopping down the road. I have lots of leather and a couple textile jackets and when I wear textile I know that I'm taking more risk when I go out, in trade for lighter weight and better ventilation when its 90+ outside and a bazzillion humidity.

[kkim]

Originally Posted by Alex

I'd be curious about any links folks could share about gear melting under harsh use sliding along the road.

section 2. Abrasion Information

http://tank.aerostich.com/pdf/RCManual.pdf

[Broom]

interesting information... thanks kelly

[Alex]

Yup, it's that text that I was remembering when I typed up one of my earlier posts. From the aerostich site:

If the suit’s fabrics do become hot enough from frictional heating during a slide, our research indicates there is a possibility that they may melt or cause burns. Although several hundred crash experiences have been reported by suit wearers, in actual use no burns have occured.

There are many things to worry about if we fall off of our bikes at speed, primarily hitting something solid or getting run over. IMO, burns caused by the material we chose to protect ourselves with really shouldn't be too high on the list of worries.

[kkim]

for me, the benefits far outweigh the drawbacks. If I crash, it will most likely be at less than 50-60mph where I spend the majority of my time. I was well aware of the consequences when I made my choice in gear.

If I anticipated doing track work, I would consider nothing less than leather... for street use, I'm happy with my choice

[Broom]

the only textile anything i'd wear on the track is an aerostitch suit

[MtnCruiser]

Most crashes on the street are very different from crashes on a track. You always see the crashes on the track where it seems like the rider just keeps sliding forever, but rider on the street usually aren't going 100+ Mph. While I have seen guys on the street go down and slide a considerable distance many crashes involve a short slide and then impact with an immovable object. The mesh and textile gear that I have has pretty good armor in it and would offer about as much impact protection as any other gear. I will be the first to admit that mesh is not as good as leather but I have seen wrecks where riders have been wearing mesh and have fared very well as far as road rash is concerned. The most common injury that I see riders wearing gear sustain is road rash on their arms because of the mesh material shredding if they slide with their arm under them but it would still be considerably less rash that they would have gotten if wearing a tee shirt. I have never seen anyone with mesh or textile melted to them as the result of a crash, I'm not saying it couldn't happen but it would take one heck of a slide.

[dimeified]

Forget about skin burn being the "least" of worries in a crash, if avoiding having nylon and polyester melt to my skin is as simple as avoiding certain riding gear, then in my opinion the information is well worth it, and should be out there. I bet the only thing worse than sitting at home with broken bones is sitting at home with broken bones and skin grafts.

[Alex]

But it's not going to happen. Aerostich, one of the largest manufacturers of textile gear (which has a bunch of polyester in it, like all textiles), has never seen it happen. The only time it ever comes up as a concern is in threads like this online where people throw out nebulous information that is never backed by any single event where this possibility of risk has ever actually happened.

If someone chooses to avoid textiles and choose leather instead, more power to them. If someone chooses to avoid textiles due to their fear of it burning them, and instead gears up with something less (whatever less would be), then they aren't really thinking it through. Sounds like most folks in this thread are genuinely concerned about their safety and are trying to make the right decisions for their gear choices, so my worry probably won't come to pass here.

[kkim]

wear what you feel will protect you.

from one of newenough's reviews...

Note on Use: A couple customers have commented that the material used in these pants melted very easily when touched with an exhaust pipe. Of course any nylon will melt when heated significantly but these two customers felt this material was especially susceptible. We have not tested to substantiate the claim on way or the other. I’m just passing along what seem to be valid comments. Use with caution near cruiser pipes!

[capt_bugaloo]

Originally Posted by kkim

wear what you feel will protect you.

Exactly.

[cifex]

Found this doing some Googlsearch

Originally Posted by http://www.modernvespa.com/forum/topic22066.html

Hi Dan,

Thanks for contacting us about the Phoenix jacket. Your safety is important to us so if I do not fully address your question then please call me during office hours. I ask you to call as there is no definite answer to your question. The only thing definite is that if you crash you will get hurt. This is regardless of what you are wearing. What we do is design a product to fit a certain target for comfort and then build as much safety as we can into it. What we do is work hard to reduce the level of hurt.

Here is some info for you to consider though.

We test our mesh jackets for material strength & seam strength against our competitor’s similar garments. We do not advertise that we are better as we just don’t make claims about safety. Safety is subjective.

In a crash a great deal of heat is generated. Thick layers of material like leather & cotton can insulate you from that heat. A good example is road racer Ben Spies. Before he signed with us he had a very high speed crash. From what I am told his leathers held together and yet he spent a great deal of time in a burn unit getting skin graphs. He was badly burned. The Phoenix jacket is largely made of air. There are big holes all through it. The heat that is generated in a crash is not held out very well by the air holes. I have seen crash cases where the shape of the mesh is visible on the skin. The air hole part of the shell does not insulate. Most of our materials melt at about 400ºF. On checking garments that have experienced this sort of heat we see the fibers start to separate and the shell disintegrates in some areas. I have never seen a case where the melted shell melts into the skin of a rider. Never. It does not liquefy. Some small sections do come apart.

The function of the mesh jacket is to hold the protective pads close to the body on a very hot day. The alternative is no jacket at all. The rider who crashed does not indicate any damage to his shoulders, elbows or back. These are the padded areas. We have countless riders send us e-mails thanking us for the protective qualities of our Phoenix jackets. When the jacket fits right the pads greatly reduce injury.

The most important thing you can do with your Phoenix jacket or any piece of ride gear is to make sure it fits right. Second off think about and practice your crash. Good riders instinctively roll away from the area of abrasion. They feel the garment wear & heat build and they roll. I had this experience my self wearing our low priced Atomic jacket last Sept. I rolled away from my side onto the pack pad and waited for the ride to stop. The poor guy in your link may have been stuck under a pizza delivery car, so he may not have had that choice.

So is your Phoenix safe? Yes it is safer then many of our competitors jackets that lack proper waist adjustment. The Phoenix jacket should not ride up in a crash. On the other hand, no it is not safe. It is not as safe as a well fitted leather jacket. At Joe Rocket we feel that the safest jacket is the one you will wear, and when it is over 80º your leather jacket may well be still hanging in the closet.

Marc Bay
Product Manager
JoeRocket
5100 Ure st.
Old Castle Ont.
Canada
N0R 1L0

[kkim]

Originally Posted by capt_bugaloo

Exactly.

thanks. the operative word is "wear". does you no good to have the best/most expensive leather suit for crash protection if you don't wear it cause it's too hot.

the textile and mesh are great options/alternatives for riders who don't spend the majority of their time at track speeds when on the road, which is the majority of us.

[muffinman]

Originally Posted by kkim

thanks. the operative word is "wear". does you no good to have the best/most expensive leather suit for crash protection if you don't wear it cause it's too hot.

the textile and mesh are great options/alternatives for riders who don't spend the majority of their time at track speeds when on the road, which is the majority of us.

+1

Quality "mesh" jackets, like the one I have from A* incorporates HEAVY duty mesh (not loose-weave) in less abrasion-risk areas and has layers of Cordura or other more durable fabric overlying the high impact areas (shoulders/elbows/back)

[cifex]

Here is link that was in response to.

http://www.r6messagenet.com/forums/c...t-graphic.html

[kkim]

that looks bad, but nowhere in that thread does it say at what speed that accident happened. also, the majority of the damage seems to be from a tire that ran over his midsection, yes?

other than that, I'm surprised on how little road rash he has.

[MtnCruiser]

Originally Posted by cifex

Here is link that was in response to.

http://www.r6messagenet.com/forums/c...t-graphic.html

It seems odd to me that he would have slid enough on those areas to have generated that much heat without having more road rash than that. I could see sliding on his hip doing that but a mesh jacket would have not covered that area unless it was way too big. I wonder if he ended up under the car and the exhaust melted the jacket.

[Broom]

yeah, seems to me that those injuries might have been avoided (or less) with a leather jacket, but you can't fault a mesh jacket for not saving your ass when you get run over by a car. its just not going to happen in most cases.

[kkim]

I assumed "pizza boy" was a fellow rider. I didn't see anything about a car in that thread, but I didn't read it very well, either.

[Broom]

you could be right, hadn't thought about that.... haha

[sofo]

Forget the skin grafts, the initial cleaning with the brown antiseptic bitches' brew and scrubbing with a hard bristle brush is bad enough.

I have mesh sections on my textile pants however they also have a very thin textile layer beneath that is very permeable. The idea being to let air in through the mesh for cooling but still have coverage so skin isn't rashed between the mesh.

I've been looking at mesh jackets myself and wonder about them.

[dimeified]

arent there kevlar mesh weaves out there at all?

[Purspeed]

"When I lowsided, I was wearing underarmor. It melted into my skin due to the heat from the friction of sliding. the leather jacket didnt wear through, but the underarmor melted.

I wont wear it. I looked at some stuff at one of the sporting goods stores, but I could never find out if it was polypro.

anyway, YMMV

ETA these were taken a few days after. All the red spots are where The ER pulled out the melted underarmor:"

--88sporty (on Ducati message forum)

The poster deleted two images that showed some serious burns on his torso. But here are two images that were left...