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Old July 24th, 2020, 04:11 AM   #1
Clockwork Orange
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2012 Ninja 250 Suspected Electrical Issue

I have got myself a 2012 250R. It only has 1850 miles on the clock but has been standing for about 2 years. Someone tried to steal it and damaged the ignition in the process. I did a full oil and filter service and replaced the ignition, popped in a new battery and the bike fired up immediately and ran perfectly. I then gave a a good cleanup and refitted the fairings etc. All that was left was to get a new reg plate and book the MOT but suddenly the bike would not start.

It starts and runs for about 15 seconds and then dies. It immediately starts again and dies about 15 seconds later.

Things I have checked:
Replaced ECU
Replaced multi plug relay
Tested Fuel pump
Checked clutch switch and side stand switch
Replaced throttle bodies with the sensors.
Had the Data Tool system (alarm immobilizer) removed - by professional

I have no idea what else could be causing the issue. Any one have any idea as to what the problem could be. I have to believe it is something simple as it was running fine and then suddenly this issue
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Old July 24th, 2020, 06:03 AM   #2
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MOTM - Jun '18, Oct '16
Because you replaced the ignition, I'm thinking something related to a missing resistor -

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/show...ition+resistor

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/show...ition+resistor

Just a sample of threads covering the issue.

If not that, then possibly a fuel delivery issue like restricted screens/filters or inadequate fuel pressure.
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Old July 24th, 2020, 06:25 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkv45 View Post
Because you replaced the ignition, I'm thinking something related to a missing resistor -

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/show...ition+resistor

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/show...ition+resistor

Just a sample of threads covering the issue.

If not that, then possibly a fuel delivery issue like restricted screens/filters or inadequate fuel pressure.
I did not use an aftermarket ignition. I fitted an OEM unit. The bike was running fine after I fitted the ignition. It was only after I re-assembled the headlight assembly and fairings that the problem developed. It starts easily and runs well for about 15 seconds and then just dies. It seems to be getting sufficient fuel. After it cuts out it will start again immediately and do the same thing.

If I turn the ignition on you can hear the fuel pump priming which is a whining sound but I am also hearing a clicking sound that seems to come from a sensor on the throttle bodies. I don't recall hearing this sound before the problem arose. At least I cant remember hearing it.

I am completely stumped by this and more than a little irritated. I am convinced that someone will find the problem and I am probably ggong to be very embarrassed when they do......and very greatful too
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Old July 24th, 2020, 12:18 PM   #4
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MOTM - Jun '18, Oct '16
I guess I'd focus on any wiring that could have been disturbed or damaged when you worked on the fairings if that's when the trouble started.

Try to identify the resistor in the ignition wiring and make sure it is in good condition.

I think it still may be possible the problem is fuel pressure related even though the pump can be heard. Gas tank venting properly?

You are certain the key does not include a transponder on the 2012 model? I once made a standard duplicate key for a 2007 economy car and was surprised when I tried to start it. It cranked and ran briefly, but turned off after that. Nothing unusual about the original key, but it did contain a transponder.

Maybe Danno can chime in with some other ideas...
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Old July 24th, 2020, 01:50 PM   #5
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Thanks for the input. I will certainly take a look at the wiring / resistor in the ignition. I have checked the pressure from the fuel pump and its good.

I have looked through every electrical connection I can find to see if I can pick up a break or loose connection and it all looks great.

Saying that, I am not the greatest at all when it comes to electronics.

I have has to motorcycle mechanics look at the bike and they are also stumped. If I dont get to the bottom of this soon, I guess its either off to the agents or look to sell as non runner or part out, which is sacrilege for a bike that has only done 1850 miles.
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Old July 24th, 2020, 02:42 PM   #6
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Sitting for 2-years would definitely cause issues with petrol. Do not replace perfectly working parts with brand-new perfectly working parts until you've measured original parts and the numbers are out-of-spec. Otherwise you end up with lots of perfectly good spares that may never ever get used. Meanwhile, bike still doesn't work. For example:

1. I think ignition-switch and immobilizer in ECU are matched set. By replacing IG & ECU, this introduces additional possible errors into system. We don't know if new IG & ECU combo works together, so they need to be tested on another working bike to verify they work for more than 15-seconds. Might also want to verify with another shop that immobilizer is actually defeated.

What you can do is re-install original IG-switch and ECU and hot-wire/jumper switch to turn on and crank engine. This will rule out or implicate new switch & ECU combo as culprit. Can't be certain about them yet.

2. is it exactly 15-seconds after starting that it dies? This really sounds like fuel-flow issue... similar to clogged petcock on carby bikes.

3. have you tried running bike with gas-cap open?

4. measure tip-over sensor with multimeter. What is output voltage with sensor flat? With sensor tilted 75-degrees?

5. measure vacuum going to MAP-sensor by installing T-fitting in-line on same hose. Vacuum-readings being off may cause improper fueling. What are vacuum readings?

6. measure output-voltage from MAP-sensor at idle and right before engine engine stops. What are they?

7. measure impedance of inlet air-temp sensor at 0C and 80C. What are they?

8. measure impedance of O2-sensor heater at 20C. Is it within spec?

9. measure output waveform of O2-sensor with oscilloscope.

10. Measure position of TPS and verify with multimeter that idle-switch is closed. Otherwise ECU will not know that throttle is closed.

11. Clicking sounds can be sign of bad sub-throttle motor and/or sensor. Although bad TPS angle can throw those off

12. measure voltage at fuel-pump. What is it when engine stops after 15-seconds? This is to narrow down cause depending upon whether it's ECU that stops or fuel-pump that stops.

13. how did you measure pressure at pump? Did you also do flow-test? Volume and pressure are not same thing with an inverse relationship. Higher-pressure results in lower flow. Failing pumps often reduces volume output more and more while maintaining same pressure. Failing pumps may generate sufficient pressure under static test conditions, but will not be able to maintain pressure AND flow under actual operating conditions. So measure pressure while engine is running. What is pressure when engine stops? What is flow-rate for 3-seconds?


Also are these new parts actual OEM parts from dealer? There's A LOT of aftermarket crap parts sold by local or online shops that are bad right out of box. Really, really bad... they too need to be tested and measured to arrive at numbers to confirm they are good before installing. I just went through FOUR different fuel-pumps for my wife's Lexus. First 3 from 3 different auto-parts stores appears to be perfectly normal pumps, but when tested under pressure for flow, they all failed test. Final and 4th pump was actual Denso unit that came from local Toyota dealer and it passed all tests beforehand. So it was only one that was installed and rest returned. Without testing, you have no idea if part is good or bad and will end up buy enough spare parts to build 2nd bike.

Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; July 24th, 2020 at 08:19 PM.
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Old July 24th, 2020, 03:01 PM   #7
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not being familiar with your FI model (carbed here in US), and not previously mentioned in the thread...I must inquire... is there not an onboard stored trouble code type system present on this motorbike?
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Old July 24th, 2020, 03:32 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ducatiman View Post
not being familiar with your FI model (carbed here in US), and not previously mentioned in the thread...I must inquire... is there not an onboard stored trouble code type system present on this motorbike?
Ah yes, there's diagnostic Dealer Mode 1 and Dealer Mode 2 that will flash light on dash in morse-code that may indicate a particular system is not within spec. You ground or tap 5x diagnostic lead to ground to trigger these modes.



When any particular system is implicated, that doesn't mean any particular part is bad. It means ALL parts in system should be tested and measured. For example, an error for "water temp malfunction" doesn't mean ECT sensor is bad and automatically replace it. It could very well be a clogged thermostat is causing overheating. That too can be tested and verified as good or bad.

Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; July 24th, 2020 at 08:09 PM.
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Old July 24th, 2020, 05:06 PM   #9
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MOTM - Nov '18, Mar '17
logically leading to the next question....did OP or dealer or somebody check for stored trouble codes?
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Old July 25th, 2020, 03:39 AM   #10
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Thanks for all the replies. Let me try and work my way through all the above
1. I did try and run with fuel cap open and it made no difference.
2. My test on the fuel pump was by taking the tank off and connected a spare battery to it to check that it was pumping fuel at a good rate. I have no idea how to measure this or any of the other sensors as described above.
3. I was told that the clicking sound could be a sub throttle sensor so I replaced the throttle bodies as I believe these sensors are sset in the factory and cant just be replaced.
4. As per a link I was sent I checked for error codes on the FI light and found 4 errors:
a) 1 long 1 short - Main throttle sensor
b) 1 long 2 short - Inlet air pressure sensor
c) 3 long 1 short - Vehicle down sensor
d) 3 long 2 short - Sub throttle sensor

I dont know if these are old codes that need to be reset or if these are current problems.

How could all these things go at once??

As mentioned I tried 2 other ECU units as well as two other multi function relay units

I have taken a video of the bike starting and cutting out. Oh, I also timed it and it cuts out after 8 seconds each time.

Lastly, I also took a video of the flashing FI error codes. As soon as I figure out how to post these videos I will do so.
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Old July 25th, 2020, 04:35 AM   #11
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Video 1
250 Ninja Starting Issue.mov
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Old July 25th, 2020, 04:46 AM   #12
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Old July 25th, 2020, 06:11 AM   #13
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MOTM - Nov '18, Mar '17
I'd suggest to clear the codes and "reset" the system (procedure should be in service manual)

THEN run the bike and see what reappears. Again, the factory service manual should offer diagnostic paths for each code. As @Danno suggested, each system component must be tested (again, see factory service manual)

Your prior exercises in "repair by parts replacing" may even complicate matters. Still have all your original parts?

Were the codes present PRIOR to replacing throttle bodies? And AFTER?
This should have been the diagnostic path considered, I recognize a bit late now.

Your "dealer" didn't discover these codes? An actual, authorized Kawasaki dealer? If not....bringing the bike in to a factory schooled Kawasaki dealer tech may be your quickest path to full repair.
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Old July 25th, 2020, 08:52 PM   #14
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I re-read OP's post and issue appeared after adjusting bodywork. Perhaps wiring got crimped or vacuum-line got pulled and disconnected. Rather than backtracking and finding which went wrong, multiple parts-replacement ensued which introduced numerous possible errors into system. I recommend putting ALL original parts back on bike, except for perhaps IG-switch & ECU since hot-wiring ignition-switch may be bit too advanced at this stage.

Also my first suggestion is to get factory workshop manual for this bike. Professional dealer mechanics consult manual for many reasons. Mainly to save tonnes of money and tonnes of time. They will often spend some time with measurements and troubleshooting to arrive at diagnosis and replace just single part that is confirmed bad. Not shotgunning pile of random parts at bike hoping it'll hit something.

My second suggestion is to get multimeter and learn to use it to measure voltage and resistance (perhaps also current). Most of diagnostic tests in manual involve measuring these properties of engine's parts and systems to determine what's good and what's bad. There's plenty of YouTube videos that shows how to measure these things. Such as this:

Link to original page on YouTube.

There's absolutely ZERO, NONE, NADA, ZILCH chance that you're gonna be able to properly follow manual and determine what's wrong without knowing how to use multimeter proficiently. For over 100-years, mechanic's most valuable tools have been multimeter and vacuum-gauge. Nowdays, many diagnostic steps can be combined and redundancy reduced if you also know how to use oscilloscope.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clockwork Orange View Post
2. My test on the fuel pump was by taking the tank off and connected a spare battery to it to check that it was pumping fuel at a good rate. I have no idea how to measure this or any of the other sensors as described above.
Ok, this is flow test not pressure test. Both require instruments to measure and arrive at numbers. These numbers depending upon what they are, will tell you if part's properties are good or bad and needing replacement. Not sure how you arrived at "It seems to be getting sufficient fuel." or "I have checked the pressure from the fuel pump and its good." without any instrumented testing and examining numbers.

Pressure is measured by gauge which presents data as force per unit area, such as psi, or bar or kPa. Similar to tyre-pressure gauge, but for fuel-lines. You can squeeze tyre and say, "yes, there's pressure alright", but without instrumented testing with numbers, you have no idea what actual pressure is. Many people have died because of using tyre-pressure outside of bike manufacturer's recommended range. Without gauge reading out actual numbers, you have no idea if pressure is within safe-range.

What you actually tested was flow-rate, and you need to measure that. Flow is typically represented by volume per unit time. In this case, aim fuel-hose into measuring-cup and run fuel-pump for 3-seconds (use stopwatch). How much petrol (milli-litres) did you collect in 3-seconds? Multiply that number by 20 and we get flow-rate in milli-litres per minute (ml/min).


Quote:
3. I was told that the clicking sound could be a sub throttle sensor so I replaced the throttle bodies as I believe these sensors are sset in the factory and cant just be replaced.
Nope, they are adjustable and sensor never goes bad. It's activator motor that needs to be adjusted and that clicking sound is mis-adjusted motor. It's banging into end-of-travel of valve and hurting itself.

Most likely, it's TPS-sensor that's out of adjustment first. Idle-switch on TPS is probably not contacting properly due to incorrect angle-adjustment on TPS. So ECU is trying to adjust sub-throttles to compensate because it doesn't know that throttle is closed. Brand-new out-of-factory throttle-bodies need to have TPS and sub-throttle sensors adjusted before use. Procedure is in manual and requires use of multimeter.

At this point, put original throttle-bodies back in. Most likely those were adjusted properly and removes one additional error-point that's in system now.

Quote:
4. As per a link I was sent I checked for error codes on the FI light and found 4 errors:
a) 1 long 1 short - Main throttle sensor
Yup, you changed throttle-bodies without properly measuring TPS and adjusting to factory specs.
Quote:
b) 1 long 2 short - Inlet air pressure sensor
MAP sensor. Needs testing to determine if it's reporting proper manifold-pressure. Verification is mechanically measuring actual engine vacuum, and seeing if sensor's output-voltage is proper for those conditions. For example, with key-ON and engine OFF, MAP-sensor should be measuring atmospheric pressure ~101kpa. Is it sending out proper voltage for 101kpa?

Then measure vacuum at idle, should be ~30-35kpa, but what is actual vacuum you measured? Is MAP-sensor sending out proper voltage for that manifold pressure? Having secondary measurement (mechanical vacuum) lets you verify and test if electronic measurement (MAP sensor) is correct. If not, then you replace sensor knowing for sure it's bad. Or if you measured non-standard vacuum, then you've got vacuum-leak somewhere that's tricking MAP-sensor into sending erroneous data to ECU. This is more likely the case than bad MAP-sensor (they're very simple and robust sensors).



Quote:
c) 3 long 1 short - Vehicle down sensor
d) 3 long 2 short - Sub throttle sensor

I dont know if these are old codes that need to be reset or if these are current problems.
The answer to that OR is to measure those sensors and determine if they are sending out correct output voltage for conditions. Once you've verified sensors are sending out proper voltage for conditions, THEN you reset codes.

It's like having "bulb burnt-out" error code. You can keep on resetting that code and it goes away for bit, then it comes right back again. You reset it and it comes back again. At some point, you need to look at bulb and see that it's actually burnt out. Then replace it. Or find broken wiring and fix that. Code is symptom (effect), not actual problem (cause). Fix problem and symptoms will automatically go away.

Quote:
How could all these things go at once??
Because you changed systems that incorporate them. Those parts themselves aren't bad, but are connected to systems that may be malfunctioning due to improper adjustments. Backtrack and undo your changes and put system back to original condition before fiddling with bodywork.

BTW - those error codes you got, was it from Dealer Mode 1 test or Dealer Mode 2?

Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; July 26th, 2020 at 06:24 PM.
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Old July 26th, 2020, 11:40 AM   #15
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MOTM - Jun '18, Oct '16
Whoa Danno! I knew you would have some ideas, but wow!

I (being a simple guy) would also confirm you have a good battery. You should get 12.7V or more before cranking and over 10V during cranking.

When running, you should confirm you have more voltage than before starting.

Do we know for a fact there is no transponder in the key?
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Old July 28th, 2020, 05:28 AM   #16
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Thanks for all the advise above guys. This just made me realise how little I know of the electrical side of these things. Before I cause further issues I suspect I will send this over to the dealers.
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Old December 16th, 2020, 10:37 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clockwork Orange View Post
Thanks for all the advise above guys. This just made me realise how little I know of the electrical side of these things. Before I cause further issues I suspect I will send this over to the dealers.
Did you ever get this resolved by dealer?
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