Lost a Classmate Yesterday :(

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by mike12

..........IDK that just really bothers me as a Navy Hospital Corpsman. I'm sorry for the loss, i know the face of death and you never get use to it.

Excellent post, Michael !!!

[Joshorilla]

Restricting the blood flow using a torniquet is strictly forbidden in first aid here, the complete stopping of blood causes the pressure to build up and the blood become toxic, it will then travel back up and can kill the person, or travel back up and damage the blood vessels.

Edit: not to mention killing off tissue from lack of blood / oxygen, hemorages etc.

Most cases of clean cuts, fingers, arms legs etc when gone into shock the body has a remarkable way of reucing the blood flow to the limb where blood loss is actually minimal, this must have been a very nasty cut to the femoral artery for him to die of blood loss, but a relativly quick death.

What should have been done, while torniquets are VERY badly frowned upon, the correct method is to raise the wound above heart level, and apply pressure to the wound.

I'm a member of st johns ambulance, trained in emergency first aid and insured up with them incase anybody decides to sue my first aid attempts up to a million pounds. I highly recomend this course, or equivilant for your country.

[mike12]

Originally Posted by Joshorilla

Restricting the blood flow using a torniquet is strictly forbidden in first aid here, the complete stopping of blood causes the pressure to build up and the blood become toxic, it will then travel back up and can kill the person, or travel back up and damage the blood vessels.

Most cases of clean cuts, fingers, arms legs etc when gone into shock the body has a remarkable way of reucing the blood flow to the limb where blood loss is actually minimal, this must have been a very nasty cut to the femoral artery for him to die of blood loss, but a relativly quick death.

What should have been done, while torniquets are VERY badly frowned upon, the correct method is to raise the wound above heart level, and apply pressure to the wound.

I'm a member of st johns ambulance, trained in emergency first aid and insured up with them incase anybody decides to sue my first aid attempts up to a million pounds. I highly recomend this course, or equivilant for your country.

Have you ever seen a femoral artery get severed wide open? I have and it will squirt blood up to 7 feet and an injured persons heart can elevate up to 170+ bpm, no amount of elevation or direct pressure can fix this. I can read anything a few Dr's put out as being the best treatment but it doesn't make it the best option.

P.S. this is America tourniquets are smiled upon. ask a marine if he'd rather you elevate his leg or slap on a tourniquet

[tfkrocks]

Originally Posted by Joshorilla

Restricting the blood flow using a torniquet is strictly forbidden in first aid here, the complete stopping of blood causes the pressure to build up and the blood become toxic, it will then travel back up and can kill the person, or travel back up and damage the blood vessels.

Most cases of clean cuts, fingers, arms legs etc when gone into shock the body has a remarkable way of reucing the blood flow to the limb where blood loss is actually minimal, this must have been a very nasty cut to the femoral artery for him to die of blood loss, but a relativly quick death.

What should have been done, while torniquets are VERY badly frowned upon, the correct method is to raise the wound above heart level, and apply pressure to the wound.

I'm a member of st johns ambulance, trained in emergency first aid and insured up with them incase anybody decides to sue my first aid attempts up to a million pounds. I highly recomend this course, or equivilant for your country.

In an emergency, it would still be preferable to the person dying right there on the scene since there's still a chance they could make it. Also, depending on where you are here, there are good Samaritan laws that keep you from getting in trouble for trying to help when given permission (unless unconscious) and acting in a reasonable manner. Last I remember, my state has good samaritan laws.

Originally Posted by mike12

P.S. this is America tourniquets are smiled upon. ask a marine if he'd rather you elevate his leg or slap on a tourniquet

Combat is different though. There's no time to waste on sitting around applying pressure to wait for bleeding to stop while under fire, but in the safety of the normal civilian world, it's still better to leave that for a last resort. Oh I learned my county relatively recently began implementing use of the combat tourniquet. Thought that was cool.

Ok that was entirely rambly. Overall, it just depends on the situation.

[Joshorilla]

This isn't war, this is civilian first aid.

If you can't stop the bleeding or more importantly stem the bleeding till an ambulance arives typically in 15 minutes or less (not a chopped that takes half an hour) by applying pressure to the wound you're doing it wrong.

Sources:http://www.sja.org.uk/sja/support-us...lood-loss.aspx

[mike12]

Originally Posted by Joshorilla

This isn't war, this is civilian first aid.

If you can't stop the bleeding or more importantly stem the bleeding till an ambulance arives typically in 15 minutes or less (not a chopped that takes half an hour) by applying pressure to the wound you're doing it wrong.

Sources:http://www.sja.org.uk/sja/support-us...lood-loss.aspx

you're missing the point. a 100lbs girl who hasn't worked a day in her life is not going to be able to squeeze an artery as large as that against the bone to stop the bleeding, never the less for 15 minutes or more while holding it up at the same time. The logic of the pressure and elevation method does not work here this is not a simple laceration of a small magnitude.

"If you can't stop the bleeding or more importantly stem the bleeding till an ambulance arives typically in 15 minutes or less (not a chopped that takes half an hour) by applying pressure to the wound you're doing it wrong."

i was pretty clear when i said 30 seconds or less to bleed out right? his leg was SEVERED meaning AMPUTATED

[Joshorilla]

You're also wrong, three minutes to bleed out from a femoral arterial bleed in the worse case scenario, but if you thik you're right with your limited medical knowledge over the teachings of the worlds leading body in emergency first aid then we'll have to agree to disagree.

I like your edit, also, by your logic he would have been dead by the time you got out the car and walked up to him before you could do a primary survey, where your main concern wouldn't be anything to do with the leg but since he wouldn't be breathing you'd go straight for chest compressions.

Also, severed doesn't mean amputated, amputated is a deliberate act of removing the limb, severed gived no clues as to why it was removed. I be clever, me know words.

I wouldn't normally get so angry, but bad first aid advise can kill.

[mike12]

Originally Posted by Joshorilla

You're also wrong, three minutes to bleed out from a femoral arterial bleed in the worse case scenario, but if you thik you're right with your limited medical knowledge over the teachings of the worlds leading body in emergency first aid then we'll have to agree to disagree.

LOL all you have are text books. I have real world hands on facts. you will and can die in less than 30 seconds if your femoral artery is cut wide open while you are panicked and your heart is racing over 170 bpm while you lose maybe 1oz of blood every beat and in 1 minute thats 5 liters of blood, more than enough to have died

[mike12]

Originally Posted by Joshorilla

You're also wrong, three minutes to bleed out from a femoral arterial bleed in the worse case scenario, but if you thik you're right with your limited medical knowledge over the teachings of the worlds leading body in emergency first aid then we'll have to agree to disagree.

I like your edit, also, by your logic he would have been dead by the time you got out the car and walked up to him before you could do a primary survey, where your main concern wouldn't be anything to do with the leg but since he wouldn't be breathing you'd go straight for chest compressions.

Also, severed doesn't mean amputated, amputated is a deliberate act of removing the limb, severed gived no clues as to why it was removed. I be clever, me know words.

I wouldn't normally get so angry, but bad first aid advise can kill.

you are retarded go back to school. the definition of an amputation is the non surgical and or surgical complete removal of any part of the body.

[tfkrocks]

I've had medical training on both sides - EMT-B on the civilian side, and combat lifesaver on the military side. I wouldn't necessarily go toward a tourniquet first approach, but it's definitely not something to be avoided either. I really think it all depends on the situation what method you should use to stop the bleeding.

[mike12]

im not gonna argue in this thread made for mourning of a rider anymore. the point is no one helped him and he could have had a chance to live with proper prompt aid.

[tfkrocks]

I'm not saying any one method would've been better in this case because obviously none of us were there. I agree, any reasonable effort to help is better than none at all.

[n4mwd]

Pressure vs tourniquet

Each situation is different, but in this situation a tourniquet is the clear choice assuming that you can't get your fingers on the femoral artery and pinch it shut. But even still, you have venous bleeding which could also be bad and a tourniquet would stop both in very short order.

If we were talking about a hole in the guy's abdomen, or a gunshot to the shoulder, then sure, pressure.

Also, a major break of the femur tends to be a popular way for bikers to die. Not so much severed, but when such a large bone turns into chards, it can sever the femoral artery without ever breaking the skin. Its actually pretty common in the biker fatality reports I read. In that case, once a trained person determines subdermal hemorrhaging is occurring, the only option is to apply a tourniquet. Pressure doesn't make sense because you have no idea where to apply it. A tourniquet will at least keep him from going into shock quite as fast.

Even if a tourniquet is the absolute wrong choice, it will keep the guy alive long enough for the paramedics to arrive and apply proper treatment. AND that is the real point here.

[mike12]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Pressure vs tourniquet

Each situation is different, but in this situation a tourniquet is the clear choice assuming that you can't get your fingers on the femoral artery and pinch it shut. But even still, you have venous bleeding which could also be bad and a tourniquet would stop both in very short order.

If we were talking about a hole in the guy's abdomen, or a gunshot to the shoulder, then sure, pressure.

Also, a major break of the femur tends to be a popular way for bikers to die. Not so much severed, but when such a large bone turns into chards, it can sever the femoral artery without ever breaking the skin. Its actually pretty common in the biker fatality reports I read. In that case, once a trained person determines subdermal hemorrhaging is occurring, the only option is to apply a tourniquet. Pressure doesn't make sense because you have no idea where to apply it. A tourniquet will at least keep him from going into shock quite as fast.

Even if a tourniquet is the absolute wrong choice, it will keep the guy alive long enough for the paramedics to arrive and apply proper treatment. AND that is the real point here.

[Dragonracer76]

I wonder if you're right about the touriquette too. I was an EMT and saw lots of people with amputated limbs survive b/c someone took the time to put one on them.

Looks like a rider from the area said the corner is pretty henky as well ...

" IronheadTodd says:
April 2, 2013 at 4:52 pm

'There have been numerous deaths on this curve. I live about a mile down from it and I always call it, “Dead man’s curve.” There needs to be some serious investigation into the grading of this curve. I think the pavement there is wavy. I have almost wrecked on this curve on my motorcycle before. There’s something about it that when you are going around it with any kind of speed it gives you a really bad wobble that will make you want to straighten up to regain control but you can’t because you’re in a curve. Thank God there wasn’t anybody in the oncoming lane when it happened to me. Now whenever I go around this corner I go so slow that it pisses off motorists behind me, at least I’m alive. RIP bro'"

[Vote]