DIY: Installing the Ecotrons EFI Kit on a Pregen

[n4mwd]

I video recorded my install so that those who are interested can see how its done. Its not trivial, but most people who are mechanically inclined should be able to install the kit in a weekend.

Link to original page on YouTube.

There are other ways to install the kit, but my method minimizes bike down time during the install. So you can do the majority of the install prep during the week while still riding the bike and then finish it on the weekend.

[jayman87]

Wow

That was a lot.

Well done. The video was well made and very informative. My first impression is that looks complicated as hell, but it’s probably not as complicated as it seems once you get started. I like the idea of having everything attached to the throttle body as well. I can’t say I’ll copy your guide exactly, but at the very least I’ll use this for tips and theory on how to do mine. The best part about your build is the lack of down time.

Would you ever consider making a supplemental kit with the brackets and extra parts you recommended?

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by jayman87

Wow

That was a lot.

Well done. The video was well made and very informative. My first impression is that looks complicated as hell, but it’s probably not as complicated as it seems once you get started. I like the idea of having everything attached to the throttle body as well. I can’t say I’ll copy your guide exactly, but at the very least I’ll use this for tips and theory on how to do mine. The best part about your build is the lack of down time.

Would you ever consider making a supplemental kit with the brackets and extra parts you recommended?

I've thought about a supplemental kit, but I guess it would depend on how much interest. In the mean time, I can post the bracket drawings.

Basically, my method divides the installation into two segments - the throttle body module and attaching it to the bike. You can take your time with the throttle body and the second part can be done in a few hours if you have all the parts - fuel tap o-ring, disconnects and proper throttle cables.

[mgithens]

So for us on the verge of pulling the trigger... how much would you approximate you had to spend to "complete the kit"?

Thanks for putting this together, VERY informative. If a picture is worth 1000 words, how many words is a video worth!!

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by mgithens

So for us on the verge of pulling the trigger... how much would you approximate you had to spend to "complete the kit"?

Thanks for putting this together, VERY informative. If a picture is worth 1000 words, how many words is a video worth!!

I spent a lot more time because I was shooting the video. If I forgot to film something, sometimes I would have to rip everything apart and start over. When I figured out I had messed up on the fuel pump inlet connections, I gave up and just made the addendum instead of redoing everything for the video.

I said above that there were two stages, but after thinking about it, I realize now there are three. Bungs, throttle body and final install.

The trick is to have everything you need before you start. Not everything comes with the kit. So there will be a few trips to the hardware store and other places.

In addition to the time taken by making the video, I spent a great deal of time figuring things out, building it that way, figuring out that it doesn't work well that way, and then figuring out something new. With the video, I show the final version of a method that is proven to work. If I get a second kit for my second bike, then once I have all the parts, I could probably have it installed in a few hours minus the bungs.

The bungs are special. The header pipes have to be sanded clean of any rust and to do that you need the front cowling off. But then to fit the nut, you need the cowling back on. Then to remove the headers, the cowling has to come back off as well as the mufflers. Also, during welding of the bungs, you need to be concerned about warpage of the header so it needs to be done such that warpage is at a minimum. And then the headers, mufflers and cowling have to go back on. If you do the install all at the same time, having the cowling off makes it easier to install the O2 sensors into your freshly welded bungs.

Bottom line, unless you are in a big hurry, I suggest building it in separate stages.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

The trick is to have everything you need before you start. Not everything comes with the kit. So there will be a few trips to the hardware store and other places.

This.

I did a more straightforward install than D did. (No making it a unit like the carbs because I used a pod filter) But I had it all planned out so it only took me an afternoon/evening from putting the bike on a stand to getting it fully dressed and firing it up for the first time.

If it's alright to post them here D, I need to get some pictures so you can see my install too. Just to give some more options for other ecotrons users.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

This.

I did a more straightforward install than D did. (No making it a unit like the carbs because I used a pod filter) But I had it all planned out so it only took me an afternoon/evening from putting the bike on a stand to getting it fully dressed and firing it up for the first time.

If it's alright to post them here D, I need to get some pictures so you can see my install too. Just to give some more options for other ecotrons users.

Sure, no problem. I do have to ask what is so special about pods that you think that the modular install wouldn't work for them? I heard they take up LESS room than the airbox.

[choneofakind]

Right! That means I had more space to play with. Because of this, I didn't need to make it modular to fit with the air box and could do a much simpler install. Unlike carbs which have to come out to be tuned, the TB's and fuel injection components never have to come out once their installed, even for valve adjustments.

I also wanted to get the fuel pump as far away from the engine as possible (on the battery box) to keep the pump temp in check. Keep an eye on that with your pump placement. Lolibater had to wrap his in exhaust wrap to keep it cool because he was having fuel cavitation issues.

I really like your MAP sensor holder. I will look into that later this season.

[EMSRacer07]

Dang great job. very detailed.

[lgk]

Good work.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by mgithens

So for us on the verge of pulling the trigger... how much would you approximate you had to spend to "complete the kit"?

I think I misread your post.

I thought you meant spending time, but after re-reading it, I think you meant money.

Here is a list of stuff I bought:
====================
1/4" brass barbed elbow X3
1/4" brass barbed Tee
1/4" straight brass barbed to 1/8" MNPT threads
1/8" MNPT close nipple
1/8" FNPT Tee
1/8" MNPT Fuel Test Port (dieselorings.com)
1/2" EFI clamps X10
Spring fuel hose clamps X14
Quick fuel disconnects X2
Permatex Aviation gasket sealer liquid
RTV
Petcock gasket
1"x1"x1/8" x 1" long aluminum angle
Small sheet of 0.025" aluminum sheet metal (6" x 6")
1/8" pop rivets
1/4" x 1' fuel injection hose (alcohol resistant)
5/16" x 2" fuel injection hose (may be included in kit)
1/4" x 2' blue fuel hose (included in the kit)
3/16" x 1' Standard black rubber fuel hose
Black vinyl electric tape
Package of zip ties (larger ones - smaller ones are in the kit)

Tools
==============
Pop Rivet gun
Sheet metal snips
Sheet metal pliars
Drill bits
O2 sensor socket (optional)


The brass parts tend to be kindof pricey so figure about $5 each. Most of this stuff can be purchased locally, but some will have to be ordered online and shipping charges add up. If you have to buy everything in the above list (not including tools) then you are looking at about $100-$130. That's really not that bad considering the quality of your final install.

If you have to pay someone to weld on the bungs for you, that will be extra.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

... the TB's and fuel injection components never have to come out once their installed, even for valve adjustments.

I also wanted to get the fuel pump as far away from the engine as possible (on the battery box) to keep the pump temp in check. Keep an eye on that with your pump placement. Lolibater had to wrap his in exhaust wrap to keep it cool because he was having fuel cavitation issues.

Why would you remove the carb to do your valves?

Regarding fuel pump temps, the fuel itself acts as a coolant so as long as its running and flowing, the pump isn't really going to overheat. I have heard about people parking their bike and coming out to find it wont start because of fuel vapor cavitation, but in this install the fuel pump outlet is a good bit lower than the inlet which force bubbles back into the tank. I took great pains to make sure that any bubbles have an unrestricted flow back to the tank.

[choneofakind]

You don't have to remove them. That's the point. A valve job is probably the most invasive service on these bikes, yet the fuel parts never have to come off. That's why I didn't worry about making the FI parts into a single unit.

IDK, just saying to keep an eye on it. Loli's issues were fixed once he wrapped his pump with header wrap. Mine's all the way back on the battery box without issue. Yours should be just fine as well.

[lgk]

my pump is under the air filter as well.

[n4mwd]

How did @lolibater attach his fuel pump to the throttle body? Did he just bolt it on or did he use a bracket? Just bolting it on means it can't be tilted so the outlet is lower than the inlet. I just measured mine and the pump is about 3" away from the engine.

[drphils87]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

I can post the bracket drawings.

I'm in no hurry, but can you post them please.

Should I still put the body together like this even if I have a new gen, except without the modifications needed to get it to fit on the pre gen, right?

[drphils87]

Yes I think I will paint the headers to match the engine. I've always found the pipes ugly when I look behind the front tire. I don't really want to spend 150 on a cheap plastic cover that might crack or bust anyway.

Also I don't own a rivet gun or have I ever used one, but I looked at the price and it's only $10 to $20. (rivets included) I'm guessing it's easier and less likely to fall apart than using small machine screws?

Would you say it functions better having all the parts close together like this?

Thanks again for your detailed video.

[choneofakind]

It functions the same way no matter how you install it. The only reason to make it compact like this is for use with the air box. If you use pod filters, you have a ton more space and don't really need to make your install compact.

You can easily have any install method done in an afternoon if you have stuff laid out beforehand. The one item that causes the most down time is getting the bungs installed in the headers. I had my bungs welded in ahead of time, so it took about 3 hours from putting the bike on stands to starting it and checking the readings on procal.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by drphils87

I'm in no hurry, but can you post them please.

Should I still put the body together like this even if I have a new gen, except without the modifications needed to get it to fit on the pre gen, right?

I just modified the first post in this thread to include the drawings in PDF format. Print them at 100% and verify the printed dimensions with a good ruler or a caliper.

To cut out the brackets, cut the paper ones out with a nice margin and then glue or tape that to the aluminum metal. Then use tin snips to cut the aluminum using the drawing as a guide. Once cut, drill holes using the drawing as a guide. After holes are drilled, you can bend the metal to shape in a vice or with pliers. Its thin and very easy to bend.

Originally Posted by drphils87

Also I don't own a rivet gun or have I ever used one, but I looked at the price and it's only $10 to $20. (rivets included) I'm guessing it's easier and less likely to fall apart than using small machine screws?

Would you say it functions better having all the parts close together like this?

Harbor freight has one for $5 on sale right now and comes with the rivets. Definitely worth a ride to you local store.

I think it does function better being tight and compact like that. Less tubing means less friction. So far, I have had zero problems with the install itself. I'm still working out some of the adjustments, but no problems with cavitation.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

I think it does function better being tight and compact like that. Less tubing means less friction. So far, I have had zero problems with the install itself. I'm still working out some of the adjustments, but no problems with cavitation.

Have you started playing with the ignition timing/rich map/warm-up enrichment yet?

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

It functions the same way no matter how you install it. The only reason to make it compact like this is for use with the air box. If you use pod filters, you have a ton more space and don't really need to make your install compact.

You can easily have any install method done in an afternoon if you have stuff laid out beforehand. The one item that causes the most down time is getting the bungs installed in the headers. I had my bungs welded in ahead of time, so it took about 3 hours from putting the bike on stands to starting it and checking the readings on procal.

I don't know if pods buy you anything more than extra space. Yesterday I was only able to get it up to about 98 mph indicated WOT Rich mode. That's about 10mph less than the carbs with the same bike. I think the limitation is the size of the injectors - not air volume. And getting bigger ones may not be an option for technical reasons.

But that said, under 98mph, the EFI bike seems to have superior performance.

Yes, the bungs are the biggest thing. That's why I recommend installing in stages - as your schedule permits. My bungs were also installed previously. They are a pain because on the pregen you have to remove the two mufflers to get the header out. Not sure what's involved with the newgen.

As far as whether my install will work on a newgen, I don't know for a fact, but I don't see why not. Another thing is that with a newgen you already have the petcock gasket and throttle cables.

Once you have your bungs welded, your throttle body assembly complete, and your carburetor out, the rest will take you about an hour to complete. Major time variables are the bungs and the carbs.

If you have the battery box mod done on a pregen, then the carbs come out pretty quick. I'm not sure what's involved with the newgen.

The time you spend on the bungs are dependent on what you have to do to get them welded. If you have access to your own welder, then you can do it yourself usually faster than taking them to a guy.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

I don't know if pods buy you anything more than extra space.

Yes, I agree with you. I've been saying that for months and I'm considering going back to the air box because I really liked that setup when I had carbs.

Originally Posted by n4mwd

That's about 10mph less than the carbs with the same bike.

so I'm guessing you're going by the speedo?

Anyhow, the supplied rich map is too rich and the ignition timing is retarded compared to the stock pregen timing. That is why you're noticing less top end. Have you changed that yet?

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Have you started playing with the ignition timing/rich map/warm-up enrichment yet?

I haven't played with any of the variables yet. It runs so well that I am afraid to mess with anything.

I think my adjustment screws are too far out. Matt had me open them up when I was having starting problems (turned out it was a bad battery), and the bike now hunts while idling. I made a procal recording and sent it to Matt yesterday, but I think he's just going to say to tighten the screws back in a bit. It didn't do that before I opened them up.

Actually, I can send you the procal recording if you want. I'd like to know if its running too lean. I smelled stuff yesterday, but I'm thinking its the paint on the headers.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

so I'm guessing you're going by the speedo?

Anyhow, the supplied rich map is too rich and the ignition timing is retarded compared to the stock pregen timing. That is why you're noticing less top end. Have you changed that yet?

Yes, "indicated" usually means the stock speedometer.

Perhaps I wasn't clear on my experience. I only got up to 95mph in eco mode so rich mode actually got me a little faster. However, slower than that, rich mode really sucked. I thought it was supposed to be the same as eco mode but with a little more gas, but what I'm seeing is that eco mode delivers much better performance in the low and mid range.

[choneofakind]

If you're worried about lean, just look at the readout from your O2 sensors. That will give you an idea. 0.450 mV is consistent with 14.7 AFR.

Start playing with the rich map and ignition timing I've posted. The rich map feels significantly better at 0.88 instead of 0.82 or whatever the supplied map is at. I haven't ridden on the more advanced ignition map yet, but igk and Lolibater both said it feels good. I think if you do those, you'll be able to get the top end back. I think the injectors are well capable of delivering enough fuel for top end performance; they have the same flow-rate as the OE injectors on the overseas model.

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Yes, "indicated" usually means the stock speedometer.

Perhaps I wasn't clear on my experience. I only got up to 95mph in eco mode so rich mode actually got me a little faster. However, slower than that, rich mode really sucked. I thought it was supposed to be the same as eco mode but with a little more gas, but what I'm seeing is that eco mode delivers much better performance in the low and mid range.

yeah, the rich mode also needs work down low. That's also part of what I'm been working on. I've been trying to make it a more smooth transition from lean AFR's where rich isn't needed to rich AFR where performance is needed. It's tricky to get it to feel just right.

[n4mwd]

I'll try to look at the recording to see if the O2 sensors are at .45V.

Is there a way to save my old rich map if yours doesn't work out? Does Loli have an airbox or pods?

The UK injectors are 200cc/min and the ecotrons ones are 170cc/min. So the UK injectors may have an advantage on the top end, but may sacrifice on the lower end. Bigger is not always better.

I'm riding a lot slower since my accident so 95mph is plenty good enough for now.

[choneofakind]

Yes. Every time you save a file on procal, it makes you save as a new file. It's annoying, but the end result is you can keep every setup along the way. Also, you're just using the supplied rich map. That's the same one as on your disk.

Loli's using pods. But that has no effect. Like I keep telling you, each individual ecu learns what to deliver to get 14.7 at certain rpm's/throttle openings. The rich map then uses those relationships and extrapolates to get a desired AFR. So the ratios on my rich map will all work on your bike because your requirements for 14.7 are already known by your ecu.

[n4mwd]

I just heard back from Matt and he says my O2 sensors are acting funny. I looked at the plot and it looks like they are at .45V and then gradually increase in value as it idles. Maybe at idle, they aren't getting hot enough to work right. If that's true, then it would certainly dispel the theory of it being too lean.

[choneofakind]

Higher voltage from the O2 sensors means it's reading the exhaust to be lean correct? So that means it would be continuously adding more fuel? or am I backwards.

Side note: looks like Matt updated the install thing. This is how I was debating doing it with the air box. I think I do this eventually. I'll just mount the pump to the front of the air box and hope it doesn't get too warm.
http://www.ecotrons.com/files/Ninja2...anual-v2_1.pdf

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Higher voltage from the O2 sensors means it's reading the exhaust to be lean correct? So that means it would be continuously adding more fuel? or am I backwards.

Side note: looks like Matt updated the install thing. This is how I was debating doing it with the air box. I think I do this eventually. I'll just mount the pump to the front of the air box and hope it doesn't get too warm.
http://www.ecotrons.com/files/Ninja2...anual-v2_1.pdf

Wherever you install it, make sure the outlet is on the left side. If its on the right side, the pump can cavitate when its on the kick stand. I'm not sure about the O2 sensors, but other than varying the idle speed between 1K and 2K RPM, it seems to run fine.

[choneofakind]

I've never had issue with the kickstand. Mine's pointing to the right side. I never thought about that. I'll have to look into that.

Dang. It's so convenient to run it out the right side and then back. I'll have to run more hose and flip it around.

[Red250R]

When buying the brass fittings, what size should all the barbed sizes be for the hose connections? Since theres 3 different sizes of hose being used, shouldn't it matter what size the barbed sides are? Or once you clamp the hose on using the spring clamps it won't make a difference? I just don't want to buy the wrong size barbed fittings.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by Red250R

When buying the brass fittings, what size should all the barbed sizes be for the hose connections? Since theres 3 different sizes of hose being used, shouldn't it matter what size the barbed sides are? Or once you clamp the hose on using the spring clamps it won't make a difference? I just don't want to buy the wrong size barbed fittings.

See post #11 in this thread for a complete list.

EDIT:
I just realized I said 1/8" FNPT elbow when it should have been Tee. I corrected that.

Use 5/16" tubing for the inlet to the pressure regulator + EFI clamps.
Use 3/16" tubing to connect to the low pressure side of the fuel pump + EFI clamps.
The short length of 3/16" tubing on the bubbler port connects to a 1/4" barbed elbow. The hose needs to be soaked for a few minutes in hot water to make it limber enough for the fit. All low pressure fittings that have a barb can use spring clamps, but any hose attached to the fuel pump needs EFI clamps because it has no barbs.
The straight barb that I put on the fuel rail is 1/4" barb and the hose is also 1/4". All barbed elbows are 1/4". The Tee is also.

Make sure you look at the addendum of the video because I had to change the way some of the tubing is connected because of leaks.

[Red250R]

Yeah I saw the list. I already wrote it down because I have some shopping to do. I was trying to watch the video and figure out what size hose went in each place so I can figure out what size each barbed size of the fittings were. I'm trying to find somewhere online where I can buy the majority of these parts all at once instead of a little bit in different places.

[EMSRacer07]

Originally Posted by Red250R

Yeah I saw the list. I already wrote it down because I have some shopping to do. I was trying to watch the video and figure out what size hose went in each place so I can figure out what size each barbed size of the fittings were. I'm trying to find somewhere online where I can buy the majority of these parts all at once instead of a little bit in different places.

a lot of that stuff isnt needed. I still havent gone outside the scope of the original kit and mine has been running daily for the past year now.

[lgk]

i pretty much ran the basic kit with upgraded fuel lines/clamps and added a filter.

ended up spending $50 extra for stuff.

[Red250R]

Ah alright. I guess we'll see what I decide to do once I get the kit and play around with it a bit myself

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by EMSRacer07

a lot of that stuff isnt needed. I still havent gone outside the scope of the original kit and mine has been running daily for the past year now.

^^ this. It's not "ideal", but it works. No problems with the hardware and mine's seen 2000 miles of reliable use. The only issues I've had have been user error.

Originally Posted by lgk

i pretty much ran the basic kit with upgraded fuel lines/clamps and added a filter.

ended up spending $50 extra for stuff.

^^ and this. I'm working up to the point Jason's at now. Once I'm all done doing new line/cutoffs/elbows/better clamps, I'm done. I'm more interested in getting a good tune on the bike because I know what it can be with perfect carbs.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by Red250R

Yeah I saw the list. I already wrote it down because I have some shopping to do. I was trying to watch the video and figure out what size hose went in each place so I can figure out what size each barbed size of the fittings were. I'm trying to find somewhere online where I can buy the majority of these parts all at once instead of a little bit in different places.

I edited post #33 with info that you may have missed.

Like others have said, you can simply just start bolting things up with tubes and hoses running everywhere, or you can make a clean modular install. But when you when you do a spaghetti install, you are really on your own when things don't work right.

[choneofakind]

You're the same level of on-your-own with any method you use.