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Old September 1st, 2016, 12:14 PM   #1
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Exclamation new piston rings without honing

Curious to hear some opinions.

When would it ever be acceptable to install new piston rings and NOT hone the cylinder walls?
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Old September 1st, 2016, 12:19 PM   #2
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IMO, never. With the proper tools it only takes a matter of minutes. With a hone and a drill and a smidge of oil, it'll take you 5 minutes or less to do both cylinders.

I suppose if the cylinders were new enough and still had cross hatching, you'd be fine.
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Old September 1st, 2016, 12:52 PM   #3
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It is not a general practice.

The honing is to remove any glazing and help the rings seat. It takes a simple tool available at an auto parts store and oil. Plus a drill. Then you will want to clean the cylinders and wash and scrub them with soap and water. Then IMMEDIATELY coat the bore with oil. They will flash rust befor your eyes. This is all done after you clean the base and head gasket serface.
You want to get all the grit out of the cylinders bores after the honing. Otherwise it will grind into the ring gruve and stick the rings.

I am guessing someone can post up some photos of a cross hatch pattern you want to achieve.
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Old September 1st, 2016, 01:21 PM   #4
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The 300 has a nikasil cylinder wall finish less prone to flash rusting in my experience. Also it can be a bitch to hone due to the hardness of the finish. Luckily there is a motorcycle machine shop 2 miles from me that has always honed them for me on a honing bar. Something about a diamond stone?
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Old September 1st, 2016, 01:32 PM   #5
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i agree, NEVER. i am also aware of the process, and how/why this is done, mechanic by trade. apparently the mechanic at the dealer doesnt agree. i picked my bike up today, they replaced crankshaft, 1 rod, 1 piston, 2 rings(so they say), and head milled(so they say). i asked tons of questions they are probably not used to hearing, one of them was did they hone the cylinders. when he said no, i said why not, how are the rings supposed to seat? he got all defensive and said the mechanic that rebuilt this has 30yrs experience and he said it didnt need a hone. i call BS, it takes an extra 10 minutes since the block was already apart(so they say), and any experienced engine builder would home them, its a critical part of block preparation for the build.

what i think happened was that they disconnected the one rod from the crank, and let the piston/ring just dangle in the block since there was no visible damage and they were too lazy to ring it and hone both cylinders lol.

anyways, i told them after i break it in and do a compression test it will be coming back for another rebuild it the numbers are low. i asked him what a healthy engine(ninja 300) psi should be, he had no clue. i said around 200? he said lmk go check. he came out 5 minutes later and said they dont do compression test and they dont have the specs, they do leakdown tests. i said BULLSHIT, ill find out the numbers on my own, and if you dont do compression test, why the **** do they charge for them in all their service packages that are posted right there on the ****ing wall?

only reason anyone other than myself is working on this bike is because WARRANTY.

notes: bike spun rod at 1265 miles. 2013 ninja 300
will seat new rings over the weekend after this hurricane passes. here i come hard break-in
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Old September 1st, 2016, 02:07 PM   #6
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All this paranoid hostility serves no useful purpose and just gets mechanics backs up. At that low mileage I doubt it needs honing but any goodwill you had with that workshop will be in the rag bin by now.
Bet it runs fine and compression will be within spec.
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Old September 1st, 2016, 02:16 PM   #7
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All this paranoid hostility serves no useful purpose and just gets mechanics backs up. At that low mileage I doubt it needs honing but any goodwill you had with that workshop will be in the rag bin by now.
Bet it runs fine and compression will be within spec.
paranoid, no. remember i have that warranty. hostility, maybe a little.

you say "at that low mileage". how many miles do you think it takes to seat rings

i could care less about that shop, the service manager was a dbag, and it was like pulling teeth to get any info on what exactly they were doing to MY bike. not to mention i caught him in a few lies over the month it took them to do an 8.4hr job
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Old September 1st, 2016, 02:32 PM   #8
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This is the second 300 I've heard of that spun a rod bearing. The other one is a member here too and it crapped out on a track day.

Any TSB's or anything out for it?
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Old September 1st, 2016, 02:44 PM   #9
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Let me find out about nikasil. I am not reall up to speed with it and did not realize you had a 300.
If there is a good cross hatch pattern and in some cases that might be OK. I am only
Guessing but I can see the nickel on the cylinder and cast iron rings being good to make a deal.
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Old September 1st, 2016, 03:00 PM   #10
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you say "at that low mileage". how many miles do you think it takes to seat rings
I'd say around 500 before you can really let go. I would think the honing marks will still be there from new at 1250 miles. Best do an oil change after 250 or so.
I would advise against a "hard break in over the weekend" It doesn't work that way. With rings it is more about initially keeping piston speed down than throttle loading.
The spinning rods is a serious sounding weakness. A recall would be very expensive for Kawasaki since there are so many ninjettes. If they can pin the problem down to a narrow window of engine production numbers then they might do it, if it is a general problem don't hold your breath.
What were the symptoms? so that other owners can minimise damage if it happens to them.
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Old September 1st, 2016, 03:17 PM   #11
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This is the second 300 I've heard of that spun a rod bearing. The other one is a member here too and it crapped out on a track day.

Any TSB's or anything out for it?
i initially suspected a broken rod bolt, like this
https://is.gd/FVQZaO
also drained a cup full of oil before i dropped thebike off, there were chunks(8mm or so) or metal, not flakes. if it did indeed spin the bearing, it was because of the rod bolt stretching or backing its way out.

what do you mean tsb's or anything?

Quote:
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I'd say around 500 before you can really let go. I would think the honing marks will still be there from new at 1250 miles. Best do an oil change after 250 or so.
I would advise against a "hard break in over the weekend" It doesn't work that way. With rings it is more about initially keeping piston speed down than throttle loading.
The spinning rods is a serious sounding weakness. A recall would be very expensive for Kawasaki since there are so many ninjettes. If they can pin the problem down to a narrow window of engine production numbers then they might do it, if it is a general problem don't hold your breath.
What were the symptoms? so that other owners can minimise damage if it happens to them.
hard breakins dont work? supporting details please?
you are telling this to a guy who has broken in all my engines that way.

there were no symptoms, it happened really fast. i was a few blocks from home, engine lost power and started to vibrate. i shut it down and coasted home. tried to start it, it did not kick over, sounded like a dead battery. tried 15 mins later, it kicked over and i heard loud banging, and from experience, i immediately thought connecting rod. boy was i right
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Old September 1st, 2016, 03:23 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ØØ View Post
i initially suspected a broken rod bolt, like this
https://is.gd/FVQZaO
also drained a cup full of oil before i dropped thebike off, there were chunks(8mm or so) or metal, not flakes. if it did indeed spin the bearing, it was because of the rod bolt stretching or backing its way out.

what do you mean tsb's or anything?


hard breakins dont work? supporting details please?
you are telling this to a guy who has broken in all my engines that way.

there were no symptoms, it happened really fast. i was a few blocks from home, engine lost power and started to vibrate. i shut it down and coasted home. tried to start it, it did not kick over, sounded like a dead battery. tried 15 mins later, it kicked over and i heard loud banging, and from experience, i immediately thought connecting rod. boy was i right
TSB = Technical Service Bulletin.

It's a list of common failure items on a vehicle or particular things for a mechanic to look for. Like, noise coming from front right, common failure noted is defective driveshaft or something. Very handy when shopping for vehicles.

Just google 2013 Scion XB TSB for example to see what I mean.

https://www.automd.com/tsb/toyota_m/scion-xb_mm/

FWIW, I don't do hard break ins but I'm not easy on them either. Plenty of people do short dyno break ins on motorcycles and then take them to the track. I wouldn't flog it but you don't have to hold back. Every vehicle I've owned new or rebuilt the motor for has been driven like that. I get ya.
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Old September 1st, 2016, 03:27 PM   #13
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TSB = Technical Service Bulletin.

It's a list of common failure items on a vehicle or particular things for a mechanic to look for. Like, noise coming from front right, common failure noted is defective driveshaft or something. Very handy when shopping for vehicles.

Just google 2013 Scion XB TSB for example to see what I mean.

https://www.automd.com/tsb/toyota_m/scion-xb_mm/

FWIW, I don't do hard break ins but I'm not easy on them either. Plenty of people do short dyno break ins on motorcycles and then take them to the track. I wouldn't flog it but you don't have to hold back. Every vehicle I've owned new or rebuilt the motor for has been driven like that. I get ya.
no tsb's, just recalls for ecu and front brake caliper interference. only thing that seems to be the problem is the weak rods/rod bolts lol
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Old September 1st, 2016, 03:29 PM   #14
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no tsb's, just recalls for ecu and front brake caliper interference. only thing that seems to be the problem is the weak rods/rod bolts lol
I'm not sure what an acceptable failure rate is for a part like that but the 300's seem to be a bit on the high side like the previous generation R6.
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Old September 1st, 2016, 03:39 PM   #15
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It would be interesting to see if the torque spec for the rod bolts changed between 2013-2016 in the factory manual. That would tell a little bit of a story.
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Old September 1st, 2016, 03:59 PM   #16
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https://youtu.be/bLQfZsmQb7]" TARGET="_blank">Link to original page on YouTube.
watch from 5:10.
this is the exact same thing that happened to me.

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Old September 1st, 2016, 05:07 PM   #17
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hard breakins dont work? supporting details please?
you are telling this to a guy who has broken in all my engines that way.
Uneven high areas that have not yet worn smooth generate hot spots because the loads are not evenly distributed The higher the speed the more likely temperatures reached at those high points will be enough to burn through the very thin oil film on the bore fuse the metal (seize)
Look, it's your bike and your attitude, if you want to run it in by caning it, do what you want, I'm outta here.
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Old September 1st, 2016, 05:17 PM   #18
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It would be interesting to see if the torque spec for the rod bolts changed between 2013-2016 in the factory manual. That would tell a little bit of a story.
either this, or a change in rod bolt/nut. most likely just a tq spec
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Old September 2nd, 2016, 05:55 AM   #19
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Same rod bolts between the 250s and 300s. Newgen 250 calls for 20 ft lbs torque. 2013 300 manual says .15-.25mm of bolt stretch, or 89 in lbs plus another 120 degrees. Not sure what the newer 300 fsm says.

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Old September 2nd, 2016, 05:59 AM   #20
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Same rod bolts between the 250s and 300s. Newgen 250 calls for 20 ft lbs torque. 2013 manual says .15-.25mm of bolt stretch, or 89 in lbs plus another 120 degrees. Not sure what the newer 300 fsm says.
20ft/lbs seems awfully low for any connecting rods bolt. are you sure thats right?

no wonder they back off, i can tighten them that tight with my fingers. rod bolts must be toothpicks if thats all the tq they take.
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Old September 2nd, 2016, 06:16 AM   #21
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300 manual specs 10 Nm and then 120 degrees or 0.15-0.25 mm bolt stretch.

They're basically the same.
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Old September 2nd, 2016, 06:18 AM   #22
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300 manual specs 10 Nm and then 120 degrees or 0.15-0.25 mm bolt stretch.

They're basically the same.
are these rod bolts/nuts made out of aluminum? lol. obviously they dont take tq. the aluminum valve cover bolting into my aluminum head on my audi takes more tq
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Old September 2nd, 2016, 06:22 AM   #23
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They're torque to yield. Not very tough at all. Probably cheaper to produce though.
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Old September 2nd, 2016, 06:27 AM   #24
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They're torque to yield. Not very tough at all. Probably cheaper to produce though.
almost all important engine bolts(at least on the euro cars i wrenched on) are TTY. front crankshaft, front cam pulley bolt, head bolts, crank mains, rod bolts, pressure plate, some suspension bolts, etc, they are tough as nails
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Old September 2nd, 2016, 06:49 AM   #25
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20ft/lbs seems awfully low for any connecting rods bolt. are you sure thats right?

no wonder they back off, i can tighten them that tight with my fingers. rod bolts must be toothpicks if thats all the tq they take.
You think that's bad? My 1967 289 ford V8's factory spec for the big end rod caps is 18 lb-ft! I got SPS bolts and torqued to a stretch spec, which got them up in the 20s. They're 5/16" diameter bolts.
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Old September 2nd, 2016, 07:07 AM   #26
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You think that's bad? My 1967 289 ford V8's factory spec for the big end rod caps is 18 lb-ft! I got SPS bolts and torqued to a stretch spec, which got them up in the 20s. They're 5/16" diameter bolts.
i would expect a beefier bolt/nut combo on something that revs so high. i guess im just used to wrenching on engines that used 3/8" arp hardware, a whole other ball game. i have never rebuilt a bottom end with stock rods, always forged w/arp hardware, its cheaper, and stronger that way
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Old September 2nd, 2016, 07:25 AM   #27
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In general, the stock 289s of that era were not high revving or high output. Mine's a 4-barrel and rated at 210hp, at a time when that was crankshaft hp on a dyno under ideal conditions. It's a marine conversion, with the original hp rating at 4,400 rpm.

The Ninja 250's pistons and rods are a small fraction of the weight of the 289 Ford's, so it's not surprising to me that the rod bolt torque spec is not high.
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Old September 2nd, 2016, 07:28 AM   #28
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Edit - my earlier post re torque spec was for the 2013 300 manual. I left the "300" part out.
The specs are whats in the FSM's. The 250 spec came from an '08 ex 250 FI FSM. Its pretty easy to find one for download.
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Old September 2nd, 2016, 10:22 AM   #29
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In general, the stock 289s of that era were not high revving or high output. Mine's a 4-barrel and rated at 210hp, at a time when that was crankshaft hp on a dyno under ideal conditions. It's a marine conversion, with the original hp rating at 4,400 rpm.

The Ninja 250's pistons and rods are a small fraction of the weight of the 289 Ford's, so it's not surprising to me that the rod bolt torque spec is not high.
sorry, i was talking about the 300 revving high
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Old September 2nd, 2016, 10:28 AM   #30
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Just talked with two factory trained and really good motorcycle mechanics. Officially you should not hone nikesil cylinders. According to Yamaha Suzuki and Kawasaki they are not serviceable. And you should replace the cylinder block. But they do put a very ,very light hone on used nikesil cylinders. Just enough to remove any glaze. And they don't use the big spring hone just the wire type with the little stone balls.
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Old September 2nd, 2016, 10:32 AM   #31
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^^^^ many small engines are like that. Some models of John Deer and Cub Cadet lawn tractor are just the same.
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Old September 2nd, 2016, 10:42 AM   #32
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Just talked with two factory trained and really good motorcycle mechanics. Officially you should not hone nikesil cylinders. According to Yamaha Suzuki and Kawasaki they are not serviceable. And you should replace the cylinder block. But they do put a very ,very light hone on used nikesil cylinders. Just enough to remove any glaze. And they don't use the big spring hone just the wire type with the little stone balls.
I can confirm said confirmation too. The guy who does my machine work says the same thing.
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Old September 2nd, 2016, 11:00 AM   #33
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Officially you should not hone nikesil cylinders. According to Yamaha Suzuki and Kawasaki they are not serviceable. But they do put a very ,very light hone on used nikesil cylinders.
so disregard the "you should not hone nikasil cylinders"
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Old September 2nd, 2016, 11:15 AM   #34
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It's cool we are all learning some things there.
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Old September 2nd, 2016, 11:24 AM   #35
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Just talked with two factory trained and really good motorcycle mechanics. Officially you should not hone nikesil cylinders. According to Yamaha Suzuki and Kawasaki they are not serviceable. And you should replace the cylinder block. But they do put a very ,very light hone on used nikesil cylinders. Just enough to remove any glaze. And they don't use the big spring hone just the wire type with the little stone balls.
For the two strokes we used to race that had Nikasil liners, we used to use ScotchBrite pads whenever we put a new ring in them. A few swipes would leave some scratches in it for the new ring to seat on.
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Old September 2nd, 2016, 03:33 PM   #36
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^ this

In the off road world where top end rebuilds are way more common scotchBrite is a very common method used on the coated cylinders
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Old December 22nd, 2016, 09:03 AM   #37
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It's not required to hone Nikasil bores, infact due to the thickness of Nikasil (or equivilent) applied, it should generally be avoided. Most Two strokes use Nikasil bores & they get new pistons & rings on a fairly regular schedule, no honing required unless the bore is damaged, & if it is then it usually needs an oversize and replating.

Honing is an OLD technique designed for use on OLD tech cast iron liners like those in the pregen & newgen 250's. I've rebuilt loads of 4 stroke bike engines in the past with new pistons & rings without honing if the bore was in good condition. Just be gentle with the initial break in runs. Never burned any oil or lost compression, nor damaged any rings that way.

YMMV
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Old February 6th, 2022, 08:46 PM   #38
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this is very interesting to me as I have always used a stone hone in all the cylinders I have had off.... weather they needed it or not ! (even re using old rings)
putting those cross hatches in the cylinder really helps seat the rings...
but I have read where these new coatings honing is ill advised because of the coating because it is only a few microns thick if you hone it you remove the coating..... so that leaves me to wonder how long this thin coating will actually last...... pistons and rings really do ware down the cylinder wall fairly fast
and I would guess that within 2000 miles that coating would be completely gone with no hopes of finding any trace of it left..... even IF it is as hard as they say ! with that in mind how many miles do You guys think the coating would last on a cylinder ??? personally I would give it the benefit of the doubt and give it a maximum of 5,000 miles and then it is gone.... from brand new.
so if you have more miles on the machine than that I would think HONING would be a good thing
.... Now I am sure many of you will quote the manufacturers bragging of the coating will last 100,000 miles but do you really think they checked that with mileage on the road ? no they estimated it by the hardness ware of a normal cylinder and the new hardness of the coated cylinder.... which gives a really false impression of it's longevity !!!
....Bob...
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Old February 7th, 2022, 01:22 AM   #39
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These composite coatings simply do not wear like old cast iron bores. That's why there's no reason to hone them. I've replaced rings & pistons on 2T dirt bikes over 10x with Nikasil bores with no honing needed (NiCom in U.S.). The surfaces are easily 10x stronger than cast-iron. Just look up strengths of nickel-steel alloys, they are tough! Further alloying makes them indestructible really.

Similarly, '80s Porsche water-cooled engines started using Alusil, a hypereutecic alloy first used in Chevy Vega (Reynolds 390). It is made with +21% silicon embedded in aluminium. The cylinder surface is prepped just like iron bores to working size. Then final etching/lapping phase is done at end to remove aluminium from between silicon crystals at surface. This leaves tough silicon cylinder surface with pores to hold oil. Many engines having +200K miles when rebuilt, have no measurable wear on cylinders. Porsche's service manual states to not hone and just replace rings and put back together. Iron-coated pistons are needed to match toughness of these silicon bores.

I actually rebuilt one such engine starting at 250K-miles with just new rings. It lasted 2 racing seasons at double factory boost (+450bhp) with no problems. Only blew headgasket because I got greedy and turned up boost just before start of Open Track Challenge without proper dyno tuning. Tore it apart and replaced headgasket overnight in parking lot of Willow Springs to finish event and it went another 2-years without any problems. That's when I rebuilt it... again no wear could be measured; so just valve job; rings and and bearings... good as new!

Honda's silicon-carbide MMC cylinders are even tougher! Not even possible to hone them as surface is tougher than any boring-bar or honing stone available. These engines have easily gone 400K mile before needing rebuild. Again, no measurable wear on cylinders, so just new rings and bearings are needed.

https://www.researchgate.net/publica...e_industry#pf3
https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ication_detail
https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdo...=rep1&type=pdf
http://lnengineering.com/files/2019-...er-Systems.pdf

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Old February 7th, 2022, 01:37 AM   #40
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Geez that's amazing ! i guess the new tech is working then ! wow !
that is amazing !....
i am really surprised it works so well ! because at best all they do it spray on a coating and bake it ...I know they did that for ceramic coatings ... kind'a makes you wonder what else they have come up with that hasn't trickled down yet LOL
...
thanks for the info !
.....
Bob.....
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