He hit a deer

[ZeroGravity360]

Link to original page on YouTube.

Is there anyway this could have been avoided? It happened so fast. Skip to 4:30 ish

[DEFY]

well it certainly came out better than it could have. However, he might have been able to swerve left and avoid it. In these kinds of situations there is not much time to respond, the space looks more open so I'm surprised he didn't catch glimpse of the deer sooner. In more wooded areas you can certainly be surprised.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by DEFY

In more wooded areas you can certainly be surprised.

This is the story of my life....

[VaFish]

From the time the deer first appeared in the video until he hit it was 2 seconds. If he saw the deer immediately that is still barely enough time to react. A swerve to the left to go behind the deer might have save him, but it's tough to miss them when they come running out in front of you like that.

My truck wears one of these because I've hit deer before.

Unfortunately I don't think the Ninjette would move if I mounted one on it.

[CaliGrrl]

They do move quickly and show up in surprising places. This weekend, I was out with my hubby and the bike club we ride with, and there was a deer in an orchard. Luckily the leader saw her, and slowed down, and was able to warn the rest of the line.

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by csmith12

This is the story of my life....

mine as well, my commute is through multiple forests

[alex.s]

if he was paying more attention he could have gotten on the brake sooner and might have just barely missed it. but that's a pretty tough one. he might not have. moral of the story: dont let talking to yourself on camera distract you from actually riding the bike.

did think it was funny he kept talking while he was going down. lmao

[VaFish]

Originally Posted by alex.s

if he was paying more attention he could have gotten on the brake sooner and might have just barely missed it. but that's a pretty tough one. he might not have. moral of the story: dont let talking to yourself on camera distract you from actually riding the bike.

did think it was funny he kept talking while he was going down. lmao

As a new rider he also might have locked the front brake and dropped the bike anyway.

Animals are funny creatures and don't always act the way we would predict. I've had deer stop and turn around as they were crossing the road, I've had them stop and look both ways before they crossed the road. I've had friends that had deer run into the side of their cars.

I've also had friends hit cows, camels, and emu on their bikes, so it's not just deer.

Just pay attention to your ride, know they can come out of anywhere and do your best to avoid them through braking and/or evasive maneuvers is all you can do.

[Sirref]

watching the video on the technique side I saw 3 things

1. he didn't have the brake covered = increased stopping distance
2. he pulled the clutch not allowing the bike's engine braking to work = increased stopping distance
3. he didn't use the full power of the front brake, this is the most understandable of the three, by not modulating the lever at all to load the front before hard braking he simultaneously decreased braking performance while putting himself at risk of locking up the front brake (90% sure that bike had abs and am just as confident that said abs kicked in) I noticed a slight hesitation from the front that suggested he was about to tuck the front from his panic braking without actually hitting the deer before he actually hit the deer

The first two are perfectly avoidable, the 3rd is understandable and pretty normal but can be beaten with extensive training and focus

[Lazarus]

Everyone can analyze this video up and down for the rest of forever but I've been in this situation as recently as yesterday morning and I'm sure most riders on this forum have had an incident with deer/other wildlife. 1st time it happened to me it was a small fawn and it turned around/jumped away from my bike instead of crossing the road. Had I swerved I would have been toast, instead I used front/rear/engine brake to drop my speed from 60 to 50 and that gave me enough time to avoid her. 2nd time (yesterday morning) a full size doe ran out and crossed the road, I did an imitation speed wobble while slightly braking to try and anticipate which way I needed to move. Point Is every situation deserves different emergency maneuvers so know them all!

I was scared s**tless both times but I'll tell you what it made me a hell of a better rider and I realized that I could be 6ft under very quickly if I'm not careful. Sorry about the down tone of the reply haha ride safe everyone

[toEleven]

...the space looks more open so I'm surprised he didn't catch glimpse of the deer sooner.

The deer seems to have been in a drainage ditch adjacent to the road. The openness of the area doesn't help when they use cover so well.

[wendyjboss]

On Monday morning, a guy from just north of the border hit a deer on the interstate while commuting to work. He is fighting for his life today in a Boston area hospital. The commuter traffic is unpredictable. Combined with deer crossing the road in heavily wooded areas ... Ugh ... the family has a kick starter campaign going now. He broke his neck and shattered his leg on top of where he shattered the leg 20 years earlier in a motorcycle accident. It's a ßobering reminder we need to always be aware and even then, bad things can jump or pull out in front. Ugh ... so sad.

[empire00]

I had a similar thing happen to me. It was in the ditch beside the road and jumped out into the front of the bike. I was going down a hill doing about 50. I just touched the brakes when I hit it. I got thrown off the bike and down the rest of the hill dropping about 6ft before I landed on my hand. Bike cartwheeled in behind me and the tank landed on my heel while I was sliding. Steel toe of my boot was ripped from the sole. Minor ankle injury and a broken wrist from catching my fall. Just a reminder to wear ATGATT I am certainly glad I had my steel toe work boots still on I would hate to think about what that would have done to my foot and ankle otherwise. My 08 Ninjette was 6 days off the showroom RIP.

[akima]

I loved his message at the start about gear.

There's always that chance that you will get in an unavoidable crash or you will make a momentary mistake at just the wrong time: that's when you need gear. When Plan A goes to sh*t, gear is our Plan B.

Something he sadly didn't say in his intro:
"I'm a new rider. Maybe I should STFU and concentrate a bit more!"

I don't know if he would have avoided hitting that deer if he had been concentrating on his ride, but I'm pretty sure he would have been on the brakes sooner and reacted sooner.

I know personally that if I'm talking to someone or even if I start thinking about things unrelated to my ride, my reaction times go up and the quality of my decision making while riding goes down. About 9 months ago I had a very minor accident with another vehicle. It wasn't my fault (someone cut me up), but at the time time, my mind had started to wonder. I'm pretty sure I could have better predicted the impending danger and reacted better if I was fully focused on the my ride.

[AwDang]

looked to me like he got fixated on the deer and turned a bit right just before impact.

[DEFY]

Originally Posted by VaFish

My truck wears one of these because I've hit deer before.

Have you hit a deer with that grill guard, I'm on the fence with putting one on my truck? Hear they can actually do more damage since they attach to the frame. I don't think a lil deer will damage the frame hitting it with the grill guard on but other situations could prevent such opportunity.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by akima

(SNIP)

I know personally that if I'm talking to someone or even if I start thinking about things unrelated to my ride, my reaction times go up and the quality of my decision making while riding goes down. About 9 months ago I had a very minor accident with another vehicle. It wasn't my fault (someone cut me up), but at the time time, my mind had started to wonder. I'm pretty sure I could have better predicted the impending danger and reacted better if I was fully focused on the my ride.

Absolutely.

We have seen this before with people narrating their GoPro footage as the ride. They are thinking about things other than riding, and it's obvious they shouldn't be when a quick action is required and they can't quite pull it off.

I've punched a deer on a cycle also. On the Interstate, 2-up, at dusk. It's a hard landing, even with full leathers on. Totalled my new (at the time) '87 Ninja 750 and sent my passenger to the hospital. Worst part is when you stop sliding and tumbling and realize you are laying in the fastlane on the Interstate and it's almost dark. That's the part that really scares you.

[InvisiBill]

Originally Posted by akima

I loved his message at the start about gear.

There's always that chance that you will get in an unavoidable crash or you will make a momentary mistake at just the wrong time: that's when you need gear. When Plan A goes to sh*t, gear is our Plan B.

Something he sadly didn't say in his intro:
"I'm a new rider. Maybe I should STFU and concentrate a bit more!"

I don't know if he would have avoided hitting that deer if he had been concentrating on his ride, but I'm pretty sure he would have been on the brakes sooner and reacted sooner.

I know personally that if I'm talking to someone or even if I start thinking about things unrelated to my ride, my reaction times go up and the quality of my decision making while riding goes down. About 9 months ago I had a very minor accident with another vehicle. It wasn't my fault (someone cut me up), but at the time time, my mind had started to wonder. I'm pretty sure I could have better predicted the impending danger and reacted better if I was fully focused on the my ride.

This.

This is one of those "unavoidable" crashes. The deer was in the ditch, behind a raised driveway, so it did just pop up almost immediately at the road. Sometimes you can't avoid an accident, and that's why we wear gear.

Swerving for animals is iffy. Sometimes they'll also change directions just as you swerve. Hitting while off-balance or at a weird angle could make the accident worse too.

However...

He's a newer rider. I'm not sure how much seat time he has, but he was literally on his way home from getting his endorsement.

I'm sure he was dedicating some of his attention to narrating his video. Whether it was enough to affect how he handled the situation is up for debate. However, I'm willing to bet that if he had been focused solely on riding and scanning for hazards, he would've seen it and reacted more quickly.

Along with that, his left hand was off the bar, gesturing for the video. We all take our hands off the bars occasionally, whether it's due to "boring" riding conditions, needing to do something else with that hand (switch to Reserve, flip your visor up, etc.), or just needing to change positions a bit. After realizing there's a deer in the road, it takes him a moment to get his hand back on the bar too. You cover the levers because it takes longer to move your fingers from the grip. How much longer do you think it takes when you don't even have your hand on the grip?

If you watch the slow-mo part, he just barely clips the back end of the deer. If he had both hands on the bars and had been paying full attention, he might have been able to slow a little more quickly and manage to completely miss it. I think this is very borderline "couldn't do anything about it", but I also think some of his actions definitely worsened the situation, and could be the deciding factor between hitting it and missing it.

Source: 1 2 3 (Duck feer! Duck 'em all!)

[akima]

Originally Posted by jkv45

We have seen this before with people narrating their GoPro footage as the ride. They are thinking about things other than riding, and it's obvious they shouldn't be when a quick action is required and they can't quite pull it off.

Makes me think of this crash:
(50 seconds in)

Link to original page on YouTube.

[toEleven]

I'm either very confused or have encountered a new personal knowledge gap: how would having my left hand on the bar get me stopped any quicker? I don't necessarily need to operate the clutch, and most bikes other than those with thumb brakes don't seem to have braking controls on the left. What am I missing?

[csmith12]

I am going to vid my trip home one night from karate class. It's 12 miles of deer dodging every Mon. and Thurs. for the past 12yrs. Monday night was ridiculous, 8 deer in 12 miles... fml

ps. It's even worse during hunting season.

Poor feller, at least he should have all his paperwork in order just coming back from getting the endorsement. :\

[InvisiBill]

FYI, it looks like he just edited the video. It's now only 2:00 long and starts right where he's riding off from the intersection. The crash is now at about 0:45 and there's no slow-mo or commentary in the yard.

Originally Posted by toEleven

I'm either very confused or have encountered a new personal knowledge gap: how would having my left hand on the bar get me stopped any quicker? I don't necessarily need to operate the clutch, and most bikes other than those with thumb brakes don't seem to have braking controls on the left. What am I missing?

Nothing on the left bar directly stops you. And while you should be squeezing the tank with your legs, you'll probably brace against the bars during an emergency stop (especially if you're a newer rider or a big guy like me on a little bike like an EX500). Even as someone with a lot of experience, do you think you can panic stop more quickly one-handed or with both hands on the bars?

Here's a screencap I got yesterday of when you first see (just barely) the deer pop up.


Here's another I just took of where he actually starts to squeeze the brake.


Notice that he's already put his left hand back on the bar and fully pulled the clutch, and he's just starting to pull the brake. That's probably BRC training kicking in (regardless of whether you should or shouldn't pull the clutch). But the point is that for his process, he put his hand on the bar and pulled the clutch while he was braking. Even if he had done everything else exactly the same way, having his hand on the bar would've shaved off some of the time it took for him to start braking.

If your response involves having your hand on the bar, having to move it there from somewhere else delays your response. (Whether you need to have your hand on the bar for the response is a completely separate question.)


This is one of my big issues with practicing emergency stops. If you're just practicing by yourself, you know when you're going to start the emergency stop. It's great for practicing technique, but you lose that moment of being startled and having to react to it. "Panic stopping when your wheel gets to this line" isn't really an accurate reproduction of having to stop as quickly as possible for a sudden emergency. You almost need another person (or some sort of randomizing device) to tell you when to stop to add that element of surprise back into it.


For general skill improvement, also notice how far he's traveled between those two shots, compared to the utility pole on the right. Two seconds at 45mph works out to over 130'. If you can react more quickly, you can brake sooner and reduce the distance you're covering while still at full speed.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by toEleven

I'm either very confused or have encountered a new personal knowledge gap: how would having my left hand on the bar get me stopped any quicker? I don't necessarily need to operate the clutch, and most bikes other than those with thumb brakes don't seem to have braking controls on the left. What am I missing?

Seriously?

It would put you in a much better position to make an evasive maneuver or deal with maximum braking.

[VaFish]

Originally Posted by DEFY

Have you hit a deer with that grill guard, I'm on the fence with putting one on my truck? Hear they can actually do more damage since they attach to the frame. I don't think a lil deer will damage the frame hitting it with the grill guard on but other situations could prevent such opportunity.

It's not just a grille guard, it is a very heavy bumper.

But no I have not hit one since putting the bumper on.

[akima]

Originally Posted by InvisiBill

This is one of my big issues with practicing emergency stops. If you're just practicing by yourself, you know when you're going to start the emergency stop. It's great for practicing technique, but you lose that moment of being startled and having to react to it. "Panic stopping when your wheel gets to this line" isn't really an accurate reproduction of having to stop as quickly as possible for a sudden emergency. You almost need another person (or some sort of randomizing device) to tell you when to stop to add that element of surprise back into it.

I've thought about this quite a lot and have 2 approaches to this which have so far worked out well for me so far:

1. Train Your Lizard!

When something happens very quickly and you just have moments to react, there is zero conscious decision making going on. Instead something else kicks in. I've heard lots of names for this something else. I like to call it the lizard brain.

How does the lizard brain know what to do in response to any given event? Does it figure anything out? It's my understanding that the lizard brain doesn't really figure anything out and it isn't at all creative. Instead it works based entirely on past experience and pattern recognition. It quickly relates the current event happening right now to previous similar events from your past (events that fit the pattern). It then performs an associated response. The response is just whatever you've done in the past in response to other events that fit the pattern.

If you accept the above as true, then what does this entail for your riding? ... practise! Regularly practise emergency braking. Do this as frequently as possible. During your practise you should brake as hard and perfectly as you can. You should ensure that the only type of hard braking you know how to do is perfect hard braking. You should familiarize yourself with how it feels to brake hard. You should make your wheels chirp. You should practise braking so hard that you are forced to engage your leg and core-strength muscles in order to stay on the bike.

Your lizard now knows what hard braking feels like. It knows it's safe to feel that hard braking force on your body and it knows that the bike will stop quickly if you use the brakes properly. It doesn't know anything else.

Something extra I do when practising. I try and simulate in my mind a sudden dangerous event. I could for example, imagine a deer jumping out in front of me. I make it as real as possible in my mind. I think really good movie actors do this in order to create a natural emotional response to a completely contrived scene. I think most of us are capable of it to a lesser or greater degree.

2. Don't Use Your Lizard!

Motofool talks about this quite a lot. Essentially: don't let yourself get into an immediate danger to begin with.

Constantly scan the road and predict traffic. If you can avoid the emergency to begin with then the lizard doesn't even need to come out. There's no near miss. Everything is cool and calm!

Don't let yourself be surprised. Always expect that every vehicle around you will do the worse possible manoeuvre at all times. Are you near a hedge?... well: there is a deer in that hedge waiting to jump out at you. If you already expect some dangerous event to occur you can consciously determine what reaction to perform if the danger is realised. The lizard doesn't need to come out.



This is all just my personal approach to this street riding problem. I came to these conclusions based on past experience with training my lizard brain for non riding related purposes.

[toEleven]

Originally Posted by InvisiBill

...
Notice that he's already put his left hand back on the bar and fully pulled the clutch, and he's just starting to pull the brake. That's probably BRC training kicking in (regardless of whether you should or shouldn't pull the clutch). But the point is that for his process, he put his hand on the bar and pulled the clutch while he was braking. Even if he had done everything else exactly the same way, having his hand on the bar would've shaved off some of the time it took for him to start braking.
...

Got it. I can appreciate how it applies to the rider in the video; your initial post involves a generic "you", so I read it as applying to everyone.

Originally Posted by jkv45

Seriously?

It would put you in a much better position to make an evasive maneuver or deal with maximum braking.

Yes, seriously.

I specifically said getting stopped, not evasive maneuvers. If i'm using my arms to deal with braking forces, I'm already doing it wrong. Keeping as much weight as possible off the bars is an all the time thing. Bracing myself in a different manner does nothing to increase braking force or available traction.

[toEleven]

Originally Posted by akima

...
If you accept the above as true, then what does this entail for your riding? ... practise! Regularly practise emergency braking. Do this as frequently as possible. During your practise you should brake as hard and perfectly as you can. You should ensure that the only type of hard braking you know how to do is perfect hard braking. You should familiarize yourself with how it feels to brake hard. You should make your wheels chirp. You should practise braking so hard that you are forced to engage your leg and core-strength muscles in order to stay on the bike.
...

Reminds me of a frequently repeated phrase from someone more famous than myself:

"Practice doesn't make perfect. Practice makes permanent."

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by toEleven

I specifically said getting stopped, not evasive maneuvers. If i'm using my arms to deal with braking forces, I'm already doing it wrong. Keeping as much weight as possible off the bars is an all the time thing. Bracing myself in a different manner does nothing to increase braking force or available traction.

Good point - sorry I didn't address your "question" accurately.

It looks like you already have all the answers you need.

[akima]

Originally Posted by toEleven

"Practice doesn't make perfect. Practice makes permanent."

I like that

[toEleven]

Originally Posted by jkv45

Good point - sorry I didn't address your "question" accurately.

It looks like you already have all the answers you need.

Why the quotation marks (air quotes) Jay? I genuinely realize that I do not know everything, or even a meaningful subset of everything, and my question - which is exactly what it was - is the only way I'm going to get any closer to finding out what I don't know.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by toEleven

Why the quotation marks (air quotes) Jay? I genuinely realize that I do not know everything, or even a meaningful subset of everything, and my question - which is exactly what it was - is the only way I'm going to get any closer to finding out what I don't know.

Your reply sounded like you had your answer already.

[toEleven]

Originally Posted by jkv45

Your reply sounded like you had your answer already.

I had belief X. I was presented with information Y. I asked a question about Y so that i could evaluate it further, and determine whether or not I needed to adopt new idea Y or adjust existing idea X.

If I don't ask and simply assume that my answer is right, I lose out on the chance to be corrected. Without that chance, I risk unknowingly continuing on with a wrong answer. In my opinion, evaluating new ideas and adjusting my beliefs is a vastly superior strategy to having an answer and ignoring anything that appears to disagree with it.

There are plenty of risks I'm willing to take. I'd rather risk the pseudo-embarrassment of declaring my misguided ideas and (hopefully) being corrected than the far worse risk of assuming I know and suffering because of my self inflicted ignorance. I really don't think I deserve snarky remarks and air quotes for that.

[csmith12]

I didn't really want to get into this braking debate but it looks like it's headed in a better direction.

Imho, had his hand been on the bar it could have bought him that fraction of second. And sometimes... that is all ya need.

As someone who takes braking to extremes on a regular basis AND while doing it one handed "kinda" like the video... your gunna want your hands on the bars during really, really, REALLY hard braking (including ebraking).

Think about it... It's hard enough come to terms with preventing wheel lock up but still brake at the limit + staying on the bike + if you do get some lock up to purposefully unlock it + all the visual stuff that caused your braking in the first place. Now with only one hand on the bar your adding to that mix; keeping the bike straight (no accidental steering inputs), making it harder to stay loose on the bars, increased stresses and additional strength is required (upper and lower body) to keep you locked on in the saddle, ect.. ect.. All while your focus is getting stopped.

How do I know this? Because I live it every track day. A few hundred riders have followed me down the back straight at mid-ohio to 100+mph and watched me blow past "their" braking limits with my left hand in the air. It's very sobering to see the rider in front of you brake harder and in a shorter distance while one handed. It really helps riders put in perspective how much braking power they are NOT using. I am not trying to blow my own horn here, I AM saying if you can brake pretty good with one hand in the air. Cool!!! Truth is though, it's NOT EVEN CLOSE to what is possible. And that "untapped braking potential" would have come in real handy for rider in the vid. I haven't seen anyone in absolutely NO WAY come close to braking at max potential one handed. I am all ears if you can figure it out though. I have some top pack "I" riders that I would love to show where my "A" braking markers are and that skill would make my job easier. Also, I would bet if this rider took the BRC (msf), then it was still fresh in his mind to cover all 4 controls during an emergency.

Lastly, while on the street, I will pull in the clutch when braking hard. When inches count, the last 10ft or so... the engine is PUSHING you, not trying to stop you (the engine WANTS to run). And, if you can get your speed slow enough, the engine will stall locking your back wheel.

Much of that stuff is simply avoided by pulling the clutch. If you're depending on engine braking during your time of need, your doing something really wrong anyway.

[CaliGrrl]

I guess for me from years of driving a manual transmission car, pulling in the clutch while braking seems rather ingrained. It's certainly a habit I have. You'll get a bit of engine braking if you don't, but only for the first little bit of a second until your speed drops and then you get nothing from it.

Lizard brain handles emergencies: I can agree.

Don't engage lizard brain: Yep. Totally seems like a thing to avoid any time you can.

[Ghostt]

I live in the middle of nowhere Kentucky, deer are a concern for sure, especially at night.

I have an 55w/5k HID headlight, which is nice and bright, and offers extended range over the OEM bulb.

I have seen them and slowed down, especially if I see one, there's always more somewhere for sure.

The closest I've come to one was one night, I came around a turn on the hwy and there he was 4 points, on the shoulder, and then he took off running along the shoulder, I went wide, and actually passed him running, I could hear him running, hooves on the pavement, etc.. a bit too close for my taste

The more dangerous animals are the smaller ones, possums, skunks, dogs, cats, foxes, etc... Especially the fresh roadkill ones. I'm constantly looking and scanning like crazy, but I'm used to it.

A better lighting set-up, and constantly looking is the best defense

Or maybe something like this


Or this


personally I've wanted one of these for a long time, anyone remember Megaforce?

If not you can still buy it
Megaforce https://www.amazon.com/dp/B008D9NIK4..._885AxbV026WDG

Link to original page on YouTube.

Link to original page on YouTube.

[Ghostt]

A classic,

Link to original page on YouTube.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by toEleven

I had belief X. I was presented with information Y. I asked a question about Y so that i could evaluate it further, and determine whether or not I needed to adopt new idea Y or adjust existing idea X.

If I don't ask and simply assume that my answer is right, I lose out on the chance to be corrected. Without that chance, I risk unknowingly continuing on with a wrong answer. In my opinion, evaluating new ideas and adjusting my beliefs is a vastly superior strategy to having an answer and ignoring anything that appears to disagree with it.

There are plenty of risks I'm willing to take. I'd rather risk the pseudo-embarrassment of declaring my misguided ideas and (hopefully) being corrected than the far worse risk of assuming I know and suffering because of my self inflicted ignorance. I really don't think I deserve snarky remarks and air quotes for that.

OK, well it's my opinion that having both hands on the handlebars during braking will help you keep control of the motorcycle, especially when immediate and intense braking is required.

I guess I can't understand why you don't agree, or are even questioning it - it seems like common sense to me. I don't really understand your "belief X" (sorry, but they are real quotes) either.

You asked a question, but didn't seem very open to answers.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by csmith12

This is the story of my life....

[toEleven]

Originally Posted by jkv45

OK, well it's my opinion that having both hands on the handlebars during braking will help you keep control of the motorcycle, especially when immediate and intense braking is required.

I agree that both hands will help you keep control. That statement is not what I questioned.

Originally Posted by jkv45

I guess I can't understand why you don't agree, or are even questioning it - it seems like common sense to me. I don't really understand your "belief X" (sorry, but they are real quotes) either.

If your statement about control is what you're assigning my disagreement to, then it makes sense that you don't understand. Assigning me views I did not express is a fine way to make my statements less comprehensible. To recap with the faint hope of clarity:

Originally Posted by InvisiBill

...
If he had both hands on the bars and had been paying full attention, he might have been able to slow a little more quickly and manage to completely miss it....

Originally Posted by toEleven

I'm either very confused or have encountered a new personal knowledge gap: how would having my left hand on the bar get me stopped any quicker? I don't necessarily need to operate the clutch, and most bikes other than those with thumb brakes don't seem to have braking controls on the left. What am I missing?

(note: you added this exact same emphasis in your first reply)

Originally Posted by InvisiBill

...
Nothing on the left bar directly stops you
....

InvisiBill answered my question in a succinct 8 words, and elaborated beautifully on his original points. csmith12....covered all sorts of bases. They both added to the discussion in a civil manner. I was focused on the portion of time spent actually slowing down. InvisiBill identified my mistake regarding their post, and added emphasis where required.

If images will help, see below. My question could be restated as: how does my left hand shorten the red portion of this graphic? And the answer I received was that it doesn't; it shortens the blue section for a rider who feels compelled to squeeze the clutch before touching the brakes. The red section is unaffected if clutch usage is identical.

Originally Posted by jkv45

You asked a question, but didn't seem very open to answers.

It's not answers I've taken issue with. It's your insistence on snarky remarks. The way you chose to address me is what I'm not open to. As others have demonstrated, it's entirely possible to express an opinion without being a dick about it. I won't speculate on your intent, but that's how your snark was perceived.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by toEleven

(SNIP)

It's not answers I've taken issue with. It's your insistence on snarky remarks. The way you chose to address me is what I'm not open to. As others have demonstrated, it's entirely possible to express an opinion without being a dick about it. I won't speculate on your intent, but that's how your snark was perceived.

Well then - you told me!

I still have no idea what your question really was...

But we'll move on.