The value of death seems to be greater than the value of life

[MrAtom]

This is going to be a long post because I've thought about this a lot and every time I've tried to voice this opinion, people assume I'm a cold, heartless monster and don't listen to me. So please read the majority of it before you leave a reply.

I'm a 19 year old young man. This means an unfortunate number of my peers are getting drunk and dying in car crashes, or otherwise testing the limits of their new-found adulthood freedoms just a little too much, leading to their life being cut short.

And it really pisses me off to see people who had no interaction with said dead person for years pretending to care about them. One thing that's often said that particularly pisses me off is "I wish I'd been able to get to know you better," when posted on Facebook. To me, that just seems blatantly disrespectful and self-centered. People are supposedly valued so much more when they're dead.

In fact, I know I'm going to sound like an asshole here, but I knew one guy who died who was a complete prick. I wouldn't say he deserved to die, or that I'm glad he's dead, but you can bet I don't care that he died. I'm not going to pretend to have been chummy with him now that he's passed. If someone did that to me, I'd be pretty pissed off if I were alive to hear about it. I'd never voice that opinion to anyone specifically tied to him or any of his loved ones; they don't need that. In fact, I've only said that to one other guy before.

I think there are two possible reasons people would be posting about the death of a stranger/acquaintance for:

1. To gain some likes on Facebook and to be the center of someone else's attention while looking like a good person. In a world where social media constantly demands "Who are you?" a typical person would like to seem like a good person.

2. They're realizing that life is dangerous and they could be killed as well, and are unable to come to terms with this newly-discovered sense of vulnerability, so they misinterpret it for a sense of remorse for the recently passed.

I also think that if you're upset about the death of someone you hardly knew, you should be upset at the fact that people are dying, constantly, all the time, and never be happy again. Otherwise you're a hypocrite, or completely full of **** and don't care at all that someone died.

I figured I'd get this forum's opinion because the world of motorsports is dangerous and involves much more death than a typical sport. I respect the opinion of the members of this forum on this topic much more than I would most people. What do you guys think?

[VaFish]

Well I have a couple of thoughts on the issue.

1. I can never understand people who get upset at the death of a celebrity, rock star, sports personality, ect.... People crying because Michael Jackson, Prince, or Elvis died. I mean you didn't know them. Just makes no sense to me.

2. I have a lot of family scattered around the country, it's a shame but I don't get to see them very often. Last few years it seems like the only time we get together is for a wedding of a funeral. In those cases I really do wish I could have spent more time with them, but work, distance, ect... just gets in the way and we keep putting off getting together.

3. I don't go to funerals or say nice things about the dead for the dead people. I do it for the living people, to show support for the family members that are surviving.

[DEFY]

This world is full of drama, people feed off it. They try to relate most anything to themselves. I joined FB before it became a thing and also left it by the time it started becoming a hype. FB has become mostly an area for people to grip about themselves. If I didn't know you before you died I certainly am not impacted from your death, sorry it happened. I could care less about the lives of celebrities and when they pass I certainly don't want to hear about it on the news for the next week.

Live Your life!

[NevadaWolf]

The one that gets me is when someone implies that a deceased person could have brought so much positive change to the world. My brain always kicks in and says "Unless they turn into some evil corrupt monster or psycho serial killer." Potential can go either way.

I've seen some random condolences that have zero meaning to the person posting, and little chance of being seen by those involved. Yeah, there probably is some narcissism involved (look how good I am for posting how sorry I feel) but there may also just be a wish to let those involved know that they are not alone in their grief with no way of getting the word to them. That's how I tend to view the simple "I'm sorry for your loss" or "You have my prayers" posts in any website comment section.

Originally Posted by VaFish

1. I can never understand people who get upset at the death of a celebrity, rock star, sports personality, ect.... People crying because Michael Jackson, Prince, or Elvis died. I mean you didn't know them. Just makes no sense to me.

This one I can understand actually.

A person may not have known the celebrity personally, but that celebrity may have been a big part of the person's life.

A song while fighting a bad time in life that gave hope. A supporter for a cause that is personal. A performance that brought family and friends together.

Did I know Robin Williams personally? Nope. I had zero impact on his life. But his roles, his routines, just "him", was a big part of my childhood. So word of his death hurt. Not as much as word of losing a family member or friend would hurt, but still hurt.

[allanoue]

Originally Posted by NevadaWolf

The one that gets me is when someone implies that a deceased person could have brought so much positive change to the world. My brain always kicks in and says "Unless they turn into some evil corrupt monster or psycho serial killer." Potential can go either way.

I've seen some random condolences that have zero meaning to the person posting, and little chance of being seen by those involved. Yeah, there probably is some narcissism involved (look how good I am for posting how sorry I feel) but there may also just be a wish to let those involved know that they are not alone in their grief with no way of getting the word to them. That's how I tend to view the simple "I'm sorry for your loss" or "You have my prayers" posts in any website comment section.




This one I can understand actually.

A person may not have known the celebrity personally, but that celebrity may have been a big part of the person's life.

A song while fighting a bad time in life that gave hope. A supporter for a cause that is personal. A performance that brought family and friends together.

Did I know Robin Williams personally? Nope. I had zero impact on his life. But his roles, his routines, just "him", was a big part of my childhood. So word of his death hurt. Not as much as word of losing a family member or friend would hurt, but still hurt.

Stevie Ray Vaughan's passing made me very sad.

[sharky nrk]

Originally Posted by VaFish

Well I have a couple of thoughts on the issue.

1. I can never understand people who get upset at the death of a celebrity, rock star, sports personality, ect.... People crying because Michael Jackson, Prince, or Elvis died. I mean you didn't know them. Just makes no sense to me.

2. I have a lot of family scattered around the country, it's a shame but I don't get to see them very often. Last few years it seems like the only time we get together is for a wedding of a funeral. In those cases I really do wish I could have spent more time with them, but work, distance, ect... just gets in the way and we keep putting off getting together.

3. I don't go to funerals or say nice things about the dead for the dead people. I do it for the living people, to show support for the family members that are surviving.

^^ honestly this.......all of this.

[toEleven]

Originally Posted by MrAtom

This is going to be a long post because I've thought about this a lot and every time I've tried to voice this opinion, people assume I'm a cold, heartless monster and don't listen to me.

The fundamental thing about opinions is that they are neither right (facts), nor wrong (falsehoods). I don't want to guess, so indulge my curiousity: what do you expect to gain from this thread? Is there something you expect to be different if your opinion is heard, rather than ignored - particularly in the case of something so intrinsic as death?

Originally Posted by MrAtom

I think there are two possible reasons people would be posting about the death of a stranger/acquaintance for:

If you're ever pondering the reasons that motivate human action, you can be fairly certain that a list of finite length will be too short (or overly reductive). The first omission that comes to mind in your particular list is societal expectation, or social norms. X happened; the appropriate response among the society I was raised in is to do Y. So I do Y. It doesn't require any deeper desire to appear good/moral/ethical/etc. You wave; I wave back. We could probably enumerate possible motivations endlessly.

I don't think you're wrong (again, opinions don't have that quality), but you may be limiting your perspective with the list approach.

The only thing you've written that I'd expressly disagree with is the title of this thread: "The value of death seems to be greater than the value of life" and its relation to the behavior you cite. Unless you're measuring "value" by the number of facebook comments/likes/whatever, nothing about the behavior in question values death higher than life. From my perspective, it's more like being conspicuous by absence. Death - the immediate resolution of previously vast possibilities - highlights the value of life.

Originally Posted by MrAtom

I figured I'd get this forum's opinion because the world of motorsports is dangerous and involves much more death than a typical sport.

Good enough, but the world of motorsports has a paltry amount of death compared to the non-sporting portion of the world. If you've glanced at the NY Times list of military deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan* a few times in the past 15 years or so, you would've seen plenty of individual days with more deaths than decades of sports - all sports - combined.

*I highlight that specifically because it contains names, locations, hometowns - things more humanizing than numbers.

[Whiskey]

Originally Posted by MrAtom

This is going to be a long post because I've thought about this a lot and every time I've tried to voice this opinion, people assume I'm a cold, heartless monster and don't listen to me. So please read the majority of it before you leave a reply.

Nothing wrong with being a cold heartless monster, I know a few borderline (and some full on) psychopaths who diagnose cancer for a living.

They're good at what they do, because they don't get burned out by it

Now to your other point.

Don't take life too seriously, nobody's gotten out alive yet

[MrAtom]

Originally Posted by toEleven

The fundamental thing about opinions is that they are neither right (facts), nor wrong (falsehoods). I don't want to guess, so indulge my curiousity: what do you expect to gain from this thread? Is there something you expect to be different if your opinion is heard, rather than ignored - particularly in the case of something so intrinsic as death?

Thank you for your long, well thought out post. I don't like being censored. That really pisses me off. I also don't like seeing others being essentially exploited. I know you brought up the "its basic human behavior" thing, but I don't buy that. I think the reason for these posts is just narcissistic self affirmation that the poster is a good person. The same type of person who brags about a good deed they did.

Also, I was going to accept that I was a jaded asshole and should stop being such a prick if I saw any respected members of this community say they thought so, but I guess that's not the case. I guess I just don't play well with others. I try not to have an ego or to think I'm in one way "better" than other people but that's difficult for me sometimes; I'm kind of a dick. I was almost hoping to be humbled by responses to this post. I think I just need a few hours of introspection and meditation to get back to normal.

[toEleven]

Originally Posted by MrAtom

...
I know you brought up the "its basic human behavior" thing, but I don't buy that. I think the reason for these posts is just narcissistic self affirmation that the poster is a good person. The same type of person who brags about a good deed they did.

I hope it helped. In any specific case where multiple people offer post mortem sentiments, both possibilities could exist in the group. It may just be the way you've written it or the way I'm interpreting, rather than your intent, but using the words "the reason" makes it seem like you wish to ascribe a single motivation to everyone. I don't think that's a wise strategy. Identical results do not guarantee identical causes. Joe may be a narcissist, Jane may be doing what's expected, Jack might be working his way through a 'brilliant' plan to hook up with the deceased's widow/sister/mother/whatever.

Personally, I find it interesting that no matter how much time we spend discussing it or pondering it, we will never be certain of anyone's motivations. We each have direct access to one mind - our own. For all the others we encounter, we only get what they choose to report and the actions they express. That leaves a lot of guesswork, and a statistically insufficient sample (your own mind - a single data point) to infer from.

[MrAtom]

Originally Posted by toEleven

Personally, I find it interesting that no matter how much time we spend discussing it or pondering it, we will never be certain of anyone's motivations. We each have direct access to one mind - our own. For all the others we encounter, we only get what they choose to report and the actions they express. That leaves a lot of guesswork, and a statistically insufficient sample (your own mind - a single data point) to infer from.

How incredibly fascinating and lonely this existence is.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by MrAtom

......... I'm a 19 year old young man...........
And it really pisses me off to see people who had no interaction with said dead person for years pretending to care about them.....
...... What do you guys think?

You have seen nothing yet, simply because you are opening your eyes to life.
It is extremely good that you are thinking about human behavior.

It is natural that some of that behavior upsets you; nevertheless, that is extremely bad: it leads you nowhere, into an obscure spiritual place that seems to be above all other beings: a blind spot.

A more direct and effective path to understanding people, which is the first step away from hating them, is looking honestly and boldly inwards.
We all are very complicated inside ourselves and very similar in essence.
It is not until you observe your fears and discover their sources that you can become free of them and understand how it works in others.

I have been alive and meeting and observing people for about half a century more than you have.
Although I am mostly confused about human behavior still, I can state that most persons are moved by deep fears and conflicting feelings.
Most see nothing but their dreams and mental world of fantasies: they believe they know, but they don't.
They have not been aware of the real world and life surrounding them: remorse is a natural result of that.

"Life is what happens while you are busy making other plans." - John Lennon

[RacinNinja]

Originally Posted by MrAtom

Thank you for your long, well thought out post. I don't like being censored. That really pisses me off. I also don't like seeing others being essentially exploited. I know you brought up the "its basic human behavior" thing, but I don't buy that. I think the reason for these posts is just narcissistic self affirmation that the poster is a good person. The same type of person who brags about a good deed they did.

Also, I was going to accept that I was a jaded asshole and should stop being such a prick if I saw any respected members of this community say they thought so, but I guess that's not the case. I guess I just don't play well with others. I try not to have an ego or to think I'm in one way "better" than other people but that's difficult for me sometimes; I'm kind of a dick. I was almost hoping to be humbled by responses to this post. I think I just need a few hours of introspection and meditation to get back to normal.

Hi, I'm a dick too! Although, it gets old after a while. Also, being nice is hard and takes work.

However, you're only 19. You've a long time to figure things out. Your view on things will change and so will you.

[toEleven]

Originally Posted by Motofool

...
Although I am mostly confused about human behavior still, I can state that most persons are moved by deep fears and conflicting feelings.
...

Relevant, and with more levity than anything else I've added here

[InvisiBill]

You're a jaded asshole. Stop being such a prick.

I think toEleven makes some good points. Different people have different reasons, and varying levels of multiple reasons, for the things they do. Some people are almost certainly doing it for attention, some because they suddenly realized their own mortality, some because offering condolences is the polite thing to do.

I'm definitely a very logical, not-so-feelings-y person. I hate customs of doing things for no reason other than it's custom. Like you, it bugs me when people who had little to do with someone in life suddenly act like they lost their best friend in death.

I really like this:

Death - the immediate resolution of previously vast possibilities

Instantly, all that person's potential has been decided. It's not a case of them making a bad decision, and needing to work their way back from it. There's no chance of them going on to do great things. Their life is now permanently written in stone - nothing in the past can be made up for, and nothing else can happen in the future.

While I don't think we should pretend like jerks were saints, I think most people overall are mostly good. At this point, there's no way for them to make up for the bad things they've done, or to do any more bad things, so there's not much reason to keep harping on them about their imperfections. Hopefully everyone will learn from the deceased's mistakes and strive to be a better person, but continuing to be a jerk because they were a jerk doesn't accomplish anything.

Link to original page on YouTube.

When my time comes
Forget the wrong that I've done
Help me leave behind some
Reasons to be missed
And don't resent me
And when you're feeling empty
Keep me in your memory
Leave out all the rest

Just don't forget to help yourself leave behind some reasons to be missed.

[Toly]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...r-tribute.html

[corksil]

Some things are better off un-pondered. Please trust me on this.

I think it was nietzsche who said something to the effect of... "When you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss also gazes long into you."

When a man seeks to find something, he will ultimately find something indeed. The difficult thing, is reintegrating that found 'thing' into the thought structure of the man he was before he began to seek. Be careful what you are looking for because you WILL find it. However, the thing that you find will not be the thing that you originally set out and began looking for. The things that you find cannot be un-found, and you will carry them along with you and they will change you. That is an eventuality, not a probability.

I guess what I'm trying to say is to be aware of your thoughts because they will take you to places in the mind that you may be better off not visiting. Think of your mind as a tool to be used for personal benefit and teach yourself how to turn it off when it no longer serves a useful purpose.

I don't have any answers brah.

[subxero]

Originally Posted by MrAtom

This is going to be a long post because...

And it really pisses me off to see people who had no interaction with said dead person for years pretending to care about them. One thing that's often said that particularly pisses me off is "I wish I'd been able to get to know you better," when posted on Facebook. To me, that just seems blatantly disrespectful and self-centered. People are supposedly valued so much more when they're dead.

In fact, I know I'm going to sound like an asshole here, but I knew one guy who died who was a complete prick. I wouldn't say he deserved to die, or that I'm glad he's dead, but you can bet I don't care that he died. I'm not going to pretend to have been chummy with him now that he's passed...

I think there are two possible reasons people would be posting about the death of a stranger/acquaintance for:

1. To gain some likes on Facebook and to be the center of someone else's attention while looking like a good person. In a world where social media constantly demands "Who are you?" a typical person would like to seem like a good person.

2. They're realizing that life is dangerous and they could be killed as well, and are unable to come to terms with this newly-discovered sense of vulnerability, so they misinterpret it for a sense of remorse for the recently passed.

I also think that if you're upset about the death of someone you hardly knew, you should be upset at the fact that people are dying, constantly, all the time, and never be happy again. Otherwise you're a hypocrite, or completely full of **** and don't care at all that someone died...

(for some reason I can't highlight things right now to bold the things I want to address so I just trimmed a bit )

As far as acknowledging people you hardly knew after death and saying things like "wish I could have known you better" IMO life is a strange thing, just because I didn't hang out with someone doesn't mean I didn't want to or didnt have a desire to. Various "obstacles" of life can get in the way of things that sound quite simple.

Then the second half of that is saying such a thing is a no commitment statement, their is no chance that you will have to follow up on what you said, so you are more at ease to let it loose and have no repercussions but still get to put yourself out there as "caring"

Next, to address when an A holes dies, well it is well accepted that you don't put the dead through the wringer, bite your tongue and let people say what they want and paint this fictional picture of the life this person led, that is just the way it goes. Recently some kid I went to High School with died from OD, every news story, post whatever was nothing but, "such a sweet charismatic guy" "best athlete ever" blah blah blah, I barely knew the guy but knew he was headed down a bad path since high school.... 15 years ago, this story was no surprise and in fact once I heard he passed, I would have put money on the cause and this is without hearing anything about the kid for over 15 yrs so that should say something. Just searching the person name brought up several police reports, ect... meanwhile everyone just sugar coated everything to make the deceased come out sounding like a saint It is what it is, and it's not my place to say anything and if it was my place to say something, then maybe I should have done something about it before it was too late.

Lastly, someone you knew, even if just in passing dying vs people you don't know/never met is going to always affect people more, that little connection changes things quite a bit for the average person IMO.

Personally, I can be a little "cold" when it comes to people passing, even close family. It is the scientist/naturalist inside of me , but I still try and be there for the other people that may need it. You will most likely find things change all the time in life, how you feel now may not be how you feel in a few years.

[toEleven]

Some things are better off un-pondered. Please trust me on this.

I think it was nietzsche who said something to the effect of... "When you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss also gazes long into you."
...

I'm off topic OP, but if you're going to read Nietzsche quotes, read them in context. Stripped of their context, they are (like most quotes) exceedingly easy to distort into any meaning desired.

edit to add quote without context, because the irony is amusing: "The unexamined life is not worth living."

[corksil]

^^ part of the fallacy within english language. People often quote others in an attempt to make their own words seemingly more insistent and meaningful.

If a person said something similar to what I am saying, it gives more clout to my words and adds gravity to their meaning.

Yes, I mis-quoted. Yet I shared the words of another because I thought they could better illustrate the point I was trying to make. Perhaps the person I [mis] quoted was better able to articulate what I was trying to communicate which is why I attempted to reiterate their words in my own way.

Originally Posted by from OP

...They're realizing that life is dangerous and they could be killed as well, and are unable to come to terms with this newly-discovered sense of vulnerability, so they misinterpret it for a sense of remorse for the recently passed.

^^^^^ Yup!

Okay, here's another one. "When you dance with the devil, the devil doesn't change. The devil changes you." What I am trying to say is that when you think at length about mortality, death, and the ultimate end of existence for an organism (human or otherwise) -- the thoughts affect you and they change you, most often in ways that most people cannot comprehend or relate to. As a result it can alienate you. SO -- watch what you think about because your thoughts create your perspective of the world.

Try to focus on more positive things. Find things to look forward to, and focus on them instead of this sort of stuff. Life is good, brah. Why are you thinking about death? Life can seem hard at your age, but it's all in your mind. Do you live in an empowering reality, or a disempowering one?