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Old March 31st, 2018, 03:19 PM   #1
algs26
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Revzilla article on TD lawsuit

One our local track day providers is getting sued after a crash. It got picked up by Revzilla.

https://www.revzilla.com/common-trea...nd-club-racing
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Old March 31st, 2018, 04:24 PM   #2
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So they're *grossly* negligent with the claim that the organizers should have paid more attention to something that has been accepted as sufficient for the last decade or more, and then mentioned it in the morning riders meeting?

...if they had mentioned it in the morning meeting and he hit it, the question of negligence would have been "well why didn't you remove it since you knew it was there and was a hazard??"

This is a slippery slope. By the end of this, we'll have to let people drive tracks on Gran Tourismo with VR goggles from a climate controlled, padded room so they don't hurt themselves. How much hand holding do we need?


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Old March 31st, 2018, 05:08 PM   #3
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The guy didn't even show up in time for the rider's meeting. Plus he'd put in at least 10 laps before this happened, so he knew the bags were there and could have decided not to continue at any time. Plus his excuse that he changed his line to deal with a slower bike is utter BS, as clearly shown in the video... so his credibility is questionable. Plus the sandbags are there in the first place to control runoff, thereby arguably making the track safer overall.

This is going to come down to a battle of "expert" witnesses.
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Old March 31st, 2018, 08:57 PM   #4
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The guy's a knob, and it's clear where any motorcyclist whose ever been to a trackday would likely feel about the merits of the suit. Even the video (shown in that link) makes it even more clear where fault lies - the rider completely screws up, unforced error, and pays the price.

But what I don't see in this article or other threads going on here on local boards, is the question of who is driving the lawsuit. It's one possibility that it's Kim driving it, which plays into the narrative that he's the ass. It's also possible his insurance company is really calling the shots. Couple hundred thousand in medical costs, with a reasonable chance of recovery, I wonder if they made it a requirement for Kim to sign off on. If they (insurance company), are requiring his participation in lawsuit for continuation of coverage, he might not have a choice in the matter.
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Old April 1st, 2018, 10:15 AM   #5
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Quote:
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The guy didn't even show up in time for the rider's meeting. Plus he'd put in at least 10 laps before this happened, so he knew the bags were there and could have decided not to continue at any time.
I worry about this. Most organizations state up front that you must attend the rider meeting. Most will also let experienced riders on if they show up late or want to do a half-day. But by not adhering to their own safety policy, I'm thinking a decent lawyer could make that into negligence on the part of the track day provider. I realize it's extra work, but I'm thinking a lunch safety briefing might be a good idea - and don't let late arrivals on track without attending, period. Half hour late? Tough ****, ride after lunch.

That or do like a lot of car track days and have a licensing process whereby you are acknowledged as someone who knows their safety procedures and has a basic skillset. Obviously ride-alongs aren't practical for motorcycles, but maybe require a session with a marshal observing you and safety test to get out of C group (racing license could allow this to be waived).

I'd actually really like to see the second regardless. On a 300, I'll never get into A group, and I'm heartily annoyed with some of the straight-line heroes I have to deal with in Bs who clearly don't belong there, but "I ride a Ducati and have pristine Dainese leathers, so I can't be amongst the common rabble." Can't wait for the OMRRA/OPRT days with a LW session!
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Old April 1st, 2018, 10:44 AM   #6
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I think his best lawsuit would be against Ducati for selling a motorcycle to a moron.
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Old April 1st, 2018, 11:53 AM   #7
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Yeah, idiot unskilled rider on bike he never should have used on track. He's about 3-sec/lap slower than me on my Ninjette!

I think bigger problem is legal system that allows these kinds of frivolous lawsuits to occur. It would've been tossed out immediately upon filing in EU. Insurance companies are idiots, they made the gamble and lost, just pay up and move along. Greedy bastards have already driven our costs of living skyhigh. And I actually work for one.

Anyway, we need to go organize a class-action lawsuit against Kim for ruining our enjoyment of tracks. The villagers need to organize their torches and pitchforks dammit!!!
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Old April 1st, 2018, 01:13 PM   #8
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Yeah, idiot unskilled rider on bike he never should have used on track. He's about 3-sec/lap slower than me on my Ninjette!
Agree with almost all of that, but I'm not sure I follow the 2nd part. You're running 1:41's at Laguna on a Ninjette? Articles have him doing 1:44. Not race pace, but not terribly slow for a trackday either.
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Old April 1st, 2018, 06:45 PM   #9
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Ah.. good point, with Keigwins I was running in B-group on Ninjette and A-group on CBR600Rr. Reviewed my videos and I was 1:51 on Ninette and 1:41 was CBR600rr.
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Old April 2nd, 2018, 08:02 AM   #10
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Ok here I go, I'm going to be the guy that disagrees. Preparing flame suit.

At first I and many others were on the side of the track day org. (Keigwins) I had assumed the guy, a typical Panigale rider with a dangerous lack of skill and a bike that's way faster than he has any business being on, blew a turn and rode off until he hit something. But a lot of people saw the video and opinions changed. The sandbag right was at the edge of the track in a place where there should be runoff area. Not good. There you have it - someone was negligent.

I already know all the typical responses - He missed the morning meeting, He knew the sandbags were there as he saw them on a previous lap, He was riding above his skill level, he needs money for hit startup, etc. But putting a sandbag right next to the track and leaving it there is almost as negligent as putting a lamp post there. There is no talking around that.

Make no mistake, I love our track day orgs, and I hate idiots who try to sue when they crash in what is an inherently dangerous activity. But there are elements of this case that greatly favor Kim. As big of a dirbag as Daniel Kim seems to be, Keigwins is likely to lose the case. It doesn't make me happy though.

Does anyone see what I'm saying?
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Old April 2nd, 2018, 09:31 AM   #11
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I disagree with the lawsuit, but I think this crash should be taken as a lesson learned. Plenty of trackdays do course prep before the event. Placing air fence and the like around the course. I cant see how moving some sandbags that could potentially cause something like this again shouldn't be placed into the normal track prep from now on.
I don't think they were negligent but there is always room for improvement.
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Old April 2nd, 2018, 09:43 AM   #12
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For those who didn't click on the link, here's the video. Camera from bike 2 ahead of the crash, facing backward through turn 5. The slow motion is annoying, it would be easier to interpret if there was a full-speed version as well.

Link to original page on YouTube.

Sandbag or not, it still looks like he would have crashed pretty hard. Bike already out of shape before sandbag, and plenty of ruts in the runoff already.

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Old April 2nd, 2018, 11:40 AM   #13
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The only reason he crashed is because he freaked out and gave up on the corner.

I hate to laugh when someone gets hurt but watching his own bike run him over (and the law suit) kind of made me chuckle.

He bought a bike that was way over his head of talent.
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Old April 2nd, 2018, 11:59 AM   #14
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That's pretty fast. @ROJOracing runs 1:50s on a 250.
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Old April 2nd, 2018, 02:42 PM   #15
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Looks to me he would have crashed anyway. The bike had already compressed the front forks before the sand bags. The rear was leaving the ground and then he hits the bags. One could argue hitting the bag may have saved his life. If he had gotten to the gully he may have broken his neck.

Gotta blame someone these days because noting can be "your" fault, always has to be someone's else's fault. Little Johnny can't be at fault and he wants a participation trophy to boot.
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Old April 2nd, 2018, 05:27 PM   #16
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Trackday trophies only go to people who finish without crashing. We like winners .
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Old April 2nd, 2018, 09:16 PM   #17
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When in doubt Throttle out...Lightening the front wheel over obstacles has saved many asses, that would have saved him over the sandbag, but the ruts he would have been screwed regardless at those speeds. As Stoner said to Rossi, "your ambition outweighed your talent."
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Old April 2nd, 2018, 09:18 PM   #18
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Ok here I go, I'm going to be the guy that disagrees. Preparing flame suit.

At first I and many others were on the side of the track day org. (Keigwins) I had assumed the guy, a typical Panigale rider with a dangerous lack of skill and a bike that's way faster than he has any business being on, blew a turn and rode off until he hit something. But a lot of people saw the video and opinions changed. The sandbag right was at the edge of the track in a place where there should be runoff area. Not good. There you have it - someone was negligent.

I already know all the typical responses - He missed the morning meeting, He knew the sandbags were there as he saw them on a previous lap, He was riding above his skill level, he needs money for hit startup, etc. But putting a sandbag right next to the track and leaving it there is almost as negligent as putting a lamp post there. There is no talking around that.

Make no mistake, I love our track day orgs, and I hate idiots who try to sue when they crash in what is an inherently dangerous activity. But there are elements of this case that greatly favor Kim. As big of a dirbag as Daniel Kim seems to be, Keigwins is likely to lose the case. It doesn't make me happy though.

Does anyone see what I'm saying?
or he is the first rider of thousands upon thousands of riders to blow the corner and hit the bags, with his "skill" level he should have been able to negotiate that turn with out issue with a "slower" rider in front of him.
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Old April 2nd, 2018, 09:22 PM   #19
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this is Laguna Seca:
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Old April 3rd, 2018, 05:42 PM   #20
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Reviewed my videos and I was 1:51 on Ninette and 1:41 was CBR600rr
You're right on Rojo pace with Rojo on a street bike.

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Old April 5th, 2018, 07:41 AM   #21
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Ok here I go, I'm going to be the guy that disagrees. Preparing flame suit.

At first I and many others were on the side of the track day org. (Keigwins) I had assumed the guy, a typical Panigale rider with a dangerous lack of skill and a bike that's way faster than he has any business being on, blew a turn and rode off until he hit something. But a lot of people saw the video and opinions changed. The sandbag right was at the edge of the track in a place where there should be runoff area. Not good. There you have it - someone was negligent.

I already know all the typical responses - He missed the morning meeting, He knew the sandbags were there as he saw them on a previous lap, He was riding above his skill level, he needs money for hit startup, etc. But putting a sandbag right next to the track and leaving it there is almost as negligent as putting a lamp post there. There is no talking around that.

Make no mistake, I love our track day orgs, and I hate idiots who try to sue when they crash in what is an inherently dangerous activity. But there are elements of this case that greatly favor Kim. As big of a dirbag as Daniel Kim seems to be, Keigwins is likely to lose the case. It doesn't make me happy though.

Does anyone see what I'm saying?
I am in somewhat agreement with you.

Having ridden with many, many orgs and on tracks with various "hazards" in place, little to 0 runoff in corners, concrete walls, armco, potholes in the track, cones ON the track surface, ruts in the runnoff, ect, ect, ect, bla bla bla The sandbag thing is a safety issue for me and those that know me note that I have a very high tolerance for risks. But I do adjust my riding and attitude accordingly. At Mid-Ohio this would NOT fly and the track would go red or at the very least... ANOTHER rider's meeting would be called, the area would be well marked with multiple cones and coaches and corner workers would be on high alert. I mean... WTF why even have runoff if you are just going to dot it up with obstacles? Might as well be a mail box there, it's the same difference in the end. This is Laguna we are talking about, they should have this down to a science for a top notch facility. I got a $20 spot that says those bags are not there during AMA/MotoGP racing. Wonder why????

Then there are those comments like; "but the bags where past the corner and in the straight section." This is even WORSE!!! So you're telling me, let's put speed bumps where we are telling riders to be on the throttle and going faster. I am not finding the common sense in that argument.

To me it's rather simple, if the bags are their to control water drainage. AND it's clearly NOT raining in the video, so... someone needs to go pick them up STAT. Wet and soggy runnoff is all too common. While I don't agree with the law suit, the bags add an unnecessary risk factor in relation to the amount of benefit they are providing at the time of use in the video. Imho, this is why the guy will most likely get some sort of settlement.

Plain and simple, if I were coaching a group, any and all ON and OFF track trouble spots would be covered with my group. I would tell them to leave a bit in the tank through that section, JUST IN CASE.

Problem is... you can't fix the error or silliness of some riders.
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Old April 5th, 2018, 07:51 AM   #22
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^^ fair enough.

My reaction is to get grouchy about the suit but I guess with a little more thought, I can see how more rprecaution could have been taken. I still hope he loses though
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Old April 5th, 2018, 03:39 PM   #23
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Glad at least a few of you see what I'm saying. It's easy to get emotionally charged over this case. I did too until I looked at the video and thought about it.

This whole lawsuit has me feeling an equal amount of disdain for both the plaintiff and the defendant, mainly because both are guilty. I still hope Kim loses, but my other hope is that it becomes a lesson learned for track day orgs.

The discussion had me thinking about this old campaign against racing on the street.

Link to original page on YouTube.

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Old April 5th, 2018, 08:41 PM   #24
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Yeah, I'm thinking the onus is going to wind up on the trackday and race orgs. Unfortunately club racing never seems to have the pull to get tracks to do things with MC safety in mind. The *only* track I've ever been to where I felt the runoff was totally safe is in the middle of nowhere. So if you do get seriously injured, it's like an hour ride to the nearest podunk hospital or an hour flight to a trauma center. And the trackday has to shut down if the meatwagon rolls.
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Old April 6th, 2018, 08:22 AM   #25
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This is Laguna we are talking about, they should have this down to a science for a top notch facility. I got a $20 spot that says those bags are not there during AMA/MotoGP racing. Wonder why????
Not for nothing, but Laguna is a pretty unique place. It's a state park, run on a shoe-string budget, staffed primarily by volunteers who are interested in the significant races that they can get to come there. By most measures, it's probably not a "top notch" facility, which is why it always had so many challenges when it does/did have top-level racing there. Yamaha paid to have it repaved, which is why GP was able to come there. Mazda sponsorship paid for a handful of improvements over the years. When the GP races came, they took over the entire track, and yes - became in charge of every inch of the complex, including safety measures with the dozens and dozens of people they bring to do nothing but that. That isn't normal operations at the track, and could/would never be with the resources that they have, separate from any race orgs coming in. It's an amazingly fun track layout in a very interesting and beautiful part of the country. But the track itself is pretty quirky and a lot more low-budget / lightly staffed & supported than one might think, just because they've seen it on TV and in so many video games over the years.
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Old April 6th, 2018, 09:00 AM   #26
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This is Laguna we are talking about, they should have this down to a science for a top notch facility. I got a $20 spot that says those bags are not there during AMA/MotoGP racing. Wonder why????
Yes the bags are removed, but not just because of races, because of the dry season. Winter months are the wet season which is why the bags are there in March. Not to mention, Laguna is not really a top notch facility, everything that has been done to the facility is because those that use it had the money to improve it.
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Old April 6th, 2018, 09:20 AM   #27
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While the surrounding campgrounds are State parks, Laguna Seca itself is actually owned by Monterey County and run by SCRAMP. There's obviously many conflicts of interests here as a large portion of the County's operating budget comes from.... property taxes!!! While the track generates about ~$5-mil in taxes for the County and State of CA annually, I suspect that property taxes on the numerous $5-25mil homes surrounding the track brings in a larger chunk. This puts pressure on the County Board of Supervisors to follow the directives of the largest taxpayers.

The resultant noise-regulations has severely cut back on the numbers and size of revenue-generating events. Formula-1, MotoGP, NASCAR and Indy no longer visit this track. This massive loss of revenues has resulted in major cut-back in capital improvements and facilities operations. For most track day events, in addition to 89-db sound-limits, there's only ONE bathroom available, no water or power services in paddock and no food concessions.

It's been going downhill since the major renovations in 1988 to bring back MotoGP. At rate things are deteriorating, I suspect this track will be closed and scrapped to build more McMansions in the next 10-15 yrs.
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Old April 6th, 2018, 10:00 AM   #28
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Here's a video from about 25-yrs ago back when I was racing cars. Blew up engine going up hill after turn-5. On exit of turn-5, you can see a rut and ... sandbags!!!

Link to original page on YouTube.

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Old April 6th, 2018, 10:19 AM   #29
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Hmmm, while Laguna may have fallen from grace in actuality, it's perception and prestige has not. Hence still remaining a "bucket list" track for many riders. Perhaps as more riders learn of it's current state of affairs, minds will be swayed. Paying a premium price to ride at a "less than" facility kinda sucks. Sad...

However, its still on my list for now, with or without the sandbags.

I have a friend there riding this week with CSS, I will get an update from him and rely any new info.
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Old April 6th, 2018, 10:37 AM   #30
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Yeah, it's still one of my favourite tracks, very challenging. I just make sure to bring my own porta-potties, camping-gear and stoves/BBQs for food! For all that extra effort, we still have to pay higher fees than any other track in area ~$300/day. I'd love to do more than the 8-10 days/year available from motorcycle TDPs
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Old April 8th, 2018, 10:38 PM   #31
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Dang. I knew about the noise limit, but I didn’t realize they shorted riders on trackside logistics, too. Guess I’ll save some cash and enjoy the Ridge when I want some elevation change goodness.
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Old September 12th, 2018, 05:09 PM   #32
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Update: Keigwins@theTrack went out of business, unable to get insurance after the lawsuit, even though Daniel Kim did not prevail in his lawsuit.

There is a reorg and a new company starting under a new name and new ownership. The new org is called Carters @ TheTrack.
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Old September 12th, 2018, 05:53 PM   #33
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Yep, lawsuit's not even over and we've got casualties already.

Was at Laguna couple months ago with PTT and have to say that new management by WeatherTech has greatly improved things. Bathrooms are much cleaner, food shack's open, and they've even opened up garages for dirty bikers.
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