Popo wants to take out Waze

[liberpolly]

Originally Posted by snot

I never said make it illegal, I just said I see both sides and decided to debate the side of law enforcement.

The law enforcement side is to demand google to take down an app that is used to avoid traffic congestion and road hazards. Is this what you support?

[snot]

For all the reasons I already mentioned.... Please read the entire thread. Incase you missed it....
Because, no app is worth a life, so just remove the feature and call it EMS?

[InvisiBill]

I have RAM mounts in the car and on the bike. I use Waze like a GPS, mounted up where I can easily see it without it being in the way. I do enter road hazards while driving, if I feel I can do so safely*. There's also an option to flag something as you pass it, and enter the details later when it's safe to do so. It also has voice entry options, but they're not integrated with Siri or anything so they're kind of weird to use. Entering a road hazard is 3-5 taps on the screen, depending on if the defaults are applicable - you're not writing a novel.

I'm not trying to "bust the pigs cashing in on us" or anything. I try to flag anything that I think another motorist (especially bikers, as road hazards are generally much worse on two wheels than on four) would like to be aware of, which does happen to include cops. Usually the police I report are traffic stops or accidents anyway. The cable barriers around here have pretty much stopped the practice of cops sitting in the median for speed traps. As I stated above, I think the cops at accidents and traffic stops probably appreciate that approaching motorists know ahead of time that they're sitting there.

* I realize this is subjective, and I honestly believe that different people have differing levels of skill for doing other things while driving. Some people can manage to answer their phone or change the radio station just fine while driving. Some people can't even seem to just drive while they're driving. I think people should err on the side of caution, but I don't think every single driver needs to be put in an isolation bubble to safely pilot his car.

[Brother Michigan]

Originally Posted by snot

For all the reasons I already mentioned.... Please read the entire thread. Incase you missed it....
Because, no app is worth a life, so just remove the feature and call it EMS?

Please hand over the keys to your bike and/or car. It could potentially be used to commit murder. Also, cancel any phone service, because we can't have you orchestrating any nefarious doings with other people. Oh, and your internet service and or cell service, because we can't have you listening to any scanners and finding out where police might be.

(N.B. All I'm trying to do here is point out the absurdity of your stance on this. Just because it's possible doesn't mean it's a guarantee.)

[liberpolly]

Originally Posted by snot

For all the reasons I already mentioned.... Please read the entire thread. Incase you missed it....
Because, no app is worth a life, so just remove the feature and call it EMS?

And how will it change anything? People will just mentally adjust one for another. And it does not cost lives:

http://www.theatlantic.com/technolog...ic-App/384897/

Let us count the alternatives. Cops tend to congregate at police stations. They make regular appearances at the courthouse. They drive around town in marked cars wearing uniforms and congregate informally in the same parking lots day after day. As Scott Shackford points out at Reason, "would you like to listen to Los Angeles Police and Fire scanner traffic? It’s right here!" If someone intent on locating a police officer still found themselves unable to do so, which strains credulity, there is a widely known, pre-mobile phone app called 911 that anyone can use, anywhere in any American city, to summon police immediately to any location.

Any police officers who were earnestly worried about Waze compromising their safety can stop. Use the app yourself. It'll be obvious that there's no cause to fret. In fact, you may begin to suspect that representatives of law enforcement organizations dislike the police locator feature on Waze for unrelated reasons, but guessed that a tie to the deaths of NYPD officers was the only rhetorical tactic with enough emotional resonance to bully Google into a change. If the mottos on the sides of police cars stated the whole truth, they'd proclaim, "To protect and serve–and, during down time, to generate revenue for the city." I suspect some of the opposition to Waze by police brass is grounded in the fact that, when its automated voice announces that there's a cop car ahead, drivers slow down.

[liberpolly]

Originally Posted by dcj13

The copilot runs Waze and lets the driver know what's ahead (traffic, disabled cars, cops, whatever).

I don't hate cops. But I don't like them, either.

Excellent point. I don't hate cops either. But when so many prominent cops are publicly lying about this one app that makes traffic safer but their revenue-collecting duties harder, one may wonder how often they lie in court in order to convict innocent people just for expediency. The police, collectively, have a duty to act with honor and encourage public trust, and this is achieving just the opposite.

[InvisiBill]

Originally Posted by snot

Because, no app is worth a life, so just remove the feature and call it EMS?

One bad person may have possibly used the feature to aid him in doing something bad (though I think the facts of the case point to him probably not even using it anyway), so a few people are going all "Think of the cops!!!!11" on it and saying the feature should be removed. But giving advance warning of police (traffic stop, accident, etc.) does help, and has probably saved some LEO lives. Other police are saying they actually like the Waze reports because they cause people to drive more carefully. Removing the police feature could actually end up costing more lives than it saves. There's no way to really compare without having parallel universes.

Here's why I don't think Waze really had anything to do with the killings. This news story states that Brinsley had the app on his phone, and had used it earlier in the month. Someone pointed out to him that it wasn't all that reliable because it's just user-reported data about stationary hazards. He ditched the phone miles from where he killed the cops. If you read some background on him, it sounds more like screaming out for attention as he committed suicide, as opposed to being a vicious cop hunter. The Waze screenshot he posted may have been nothing more than thinking it was neat to be able to see reported speedtraps. He definitely wasn't "tracking" (in the stalking sense of the word) officers, because the app simply doesn't have the ability to do that.

I agree with that quote from The Atlantic. Easier identification of speedtraps hurts the bottom line, and this is an attempt to tie it to an emotional issue to get it shut down. There are many and easier ways to find a uniformed police officer in public than via a crowd-sourced traffic app. There is technically a remote possibility it could be used by someone who intended to find and harm an officer, but there are many more documented cases of using 911 for the same purpose.



In related news, Escort and Cobra radar detectors have been doing this for years. http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/...ing/50888878/1

[liberpolly]

Originally Posted by InvisiBill

In related news, Escort and Cobra radar detectors have been doing this for years. http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/...ing/50888878/1

And police wasted loads of time and taxpayer money trying to ban those too.

[fishdip]

Originally Posted by snot

For all the reasons I already mentioned.... Please read the entire thread. Incase you missed it....
Because, no app is worth a life, so just remove the feature and call it EMS?

Playing devils advocate is hard.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by liberpolly

Excellent point. I don't hate cops either. But when so many prominent cops are publicly lying about this one app that makes traffic safer but their revenue-collecting duties harder, one may wonder how often they lie in court in order to convict innocent people just for expediency. The police, collectively, have a duty to act with honor and encourage public trust, and this is achieving just the opposite.

they are probably mad because their boss saw they were sitting in the same place instead of out patrolling

[spooph]

Originally Posted by snot

So, my question to all of you using the app.... I don't use my phone at all while driving, in fact it is in my purse and out of reach. Do you use this while driving, like a GPS or is it interactive? I ask because distractive driving is also illegal, and in Ohio they are push hands free by 2016.

Wow snot! Tops to you for continuing on. Believing in what you know to be right is a very good thing! Internet keyboard cowboys and all that...

Anyway, to answer your question, yes, I use it while driving and riding all the time. If I'm able to report something safely, using either the voice recognition or the tapping feature I do, if not, somebody else will... The reason Wayz is so cool is because it will alter the route depending on traffic, which means I can set it to start, and it takes care of me - perfect for the bike where it's tucked into a jacket pocket. If it finds a faster route, it tells me, and all I have to do is listen... Me thinks you should try it. It is free afterall...

[snot]

Originally Posted by Brother Michigan

Please hand over the keys to your bike and/or car. It could potentially be used to commit murder. Also, cancel any phone service, because we can't have you orchestrating any nefarious doings with other people. Oh, and your internet service and or cell service, because we can't have you listening to any scanners and finding out where police might be.

(N.B. All I'm trying to do here is point out the absurdity of your stance on this. Just because it's possible doesn't mean it's a guarantee.)

You forgot I should hand over my oven because I could burn down the house
For the last time.... The first post... in a Dec. 30 letter, LAPD Police Chief Charlie Beck cited last month's killings and told Google CEO Larry Page, "Your company's 'Waze' app... poses a danger to the lives of police officers in the United States."

All I am doing is pointing out why I agree it CAN be dangerous, and again just call the feature EMS and include all EMS. Debates on the internet can also be dangerous to your health, when others want to engage like high school kids. Just because you disagree with my OPINION doesn't mean it is all wrong. I never said illegal or to get rid of apps, just questioning the real reason behind them.
Carry on, I just ask you stop reading what is not there and adding words or meaning that was not said.

[InvisiBill]

Originally Posted by snot

For the last time.... The first post... in a Dec. 30 letter, LAPD Police Chief Charlie Beck cited last month's killings and told Google CEO Larry Page, "Your company's 'Waze' app... poses a danger to the lives of police officers in the United States."

All I am doing is pointing out why I agree it CAN be dangerous, and again just call the feature EMS and include all EMS. Debates on the internet can also be dangerous to your health, when others want to engage like high school kids. Just because you disagree with my OPINION doesn't mean it is all wrong. I never said illegal or to get rid of apps, just questioning the real reason behind them.
Carry on, I just ask you stop reading what is not there and adding words or meaning that was not said.

Yes, it can be dangerous. So can a lot of other things which also have many good, life-saving benefits as well. Putting PD locations in Google Maps also "poses a danger to the lives of police officers in the United States" since a bad guy could go there and shoot the place up. However, it's generally considered much more helpful to know where the PD is than to worry excessively about a fringe case of someone using that information to do something bad. Wearing uniforms "poses a danger to the lives of police officers in the United States" but we still think it's better overall for them to be identifiable (in normal duty situations). The fact that police officers carry firearms "poses a danger to the lives of police officers in the United States" because their gun could be taken and used against them (or even an accidental self-shooting). Let's start a proposal to increase officer safety by disarming them and see how far it gets...

Basically everything out there can be dangerous in some way. A knee-jerk reaction to try to get rid of anything that has a remote chance of being used in a bad way will most likely result in a lot of undesired consequences and side-effects, and trying to ban desired technology rarely works anyway. You'll probably end up with a bunch of stupid laws banning app buttons that say "Police" on them or something, and every app will now come with a button for donuts or pork products instead.

To use a line from American Sniper, I feel that the police are the sheep dogs of our society. They're the brave ones willing to protect others at their own expense. We give them some special privileges beyond a normal citizen's rights so that they can efficiently protect us. It's inherently a dangerous job, and I'm pretty sure everyone older than elementary school realizes this. I don't want to put officers needlessly at risk, but I also don't want my protectors to be the ones who are clamoring to shut down anything anywhere that could theoretically pose the slightest possible risk to them. A website called ihatecopsandwanttokillthemall.com that does nothing but collect and publish cops' personal info? Yeah, shut that down. A traffic app that allows motorists to report hazards (including police cars) along the roadway? Not so much.

On the surface, I like the idea of altering Waze to use "Emergency Vehicle" instead of "Police", to better cover more situations. The live map shows entries as speedtraps, while the iOS app simply says police, so there's already some confusion around it. Perhaps they need to break out "speedtrap" specifically in addition to an "emergency vehicle" option (there's already an option for speed cameras). However, I don't think it would really have much effect on anything in the real world. How often do you see an ambulance or fire truck just parked along the road without a related road closure? Everyone searching for cops would still know that an emergency vehicle sitting in the median is a cop. If everyone knows it's a cop anyway, a generic "Police" option is kind of nice because you're alerting people to his presence (which results in more careful driving) without giving away whether or not he's in a position to ticket (speedtrap vs. accident/existing traffic stop) a speeder who's just trying to avoid getting caught breaking the law. It achieves the desired goal of alerting the driver to a hazard and driving more carefully, without giving the speeder full notice of whether or not he can continue breaking the law without worry.

[alex.s]

Invisibill for pres

[liberpolly]

Originally Posted by snot

For the last time.... The first post... in a Dec. 30 letter, LAPD Police Chief Charlie Beck cited last month's killings and told Google CEO Larry Page, "Your company's 'Waze' app... poses a danger to the lives of police officers in the United States."

And since there is no connection between last month's killings and the Waze app, what does it make LAPD Police Chief Charlie Beck?

[250rr]

We don't need this app. We don't need people butting into our business unnecessarily even more.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by liberpolly

And since there is no connection between last month's killings and the Waze app, what does it make LAPD Police Chief Charlie Beck?

http://changingminds.org/principles/distraction.htm

[snot]

Sorry boys, I have better things to do...going back to the kitchen. I hope I don't burn the food.

My opinion was never up for debate, it's an opinion and its mine. I am not trying to change your mind on what you believe, and again I could of debated both sides. Both are good and bad, I picked one 50/50 chance of it not being what the majority wants. But, with out my opinion this thread would of died long ago. So, now I have home work and house work and my audit at work is due.

[fishdip]

Originally Posted by snot

Sorry boys, I have better things to do...going back to the kitchen. I hope I don't burn the food.

My opinion was never up for debate, it's an opinion and its mine. I am not trying to change your mind on what you believe, and again I could of debated both sides. Both are good and bad, I picked one 50/50 chance of it not being what the majority wants. But, with out my opinion this thread would of died long ago. So, now I have home work and house work and my audit at work is due.

Interesting thing every one is fighting about them keeping it but its a way for police to track you. considering it shows what speed others are doing its a good tool for the cops.

[JohnnyBravo]

So since any app on any smart phone; lets just ban all smartphones, apps, cell phones, rocks, flip phones, pencils, plastic bags, and medical devices etc etc. Cause each and every one of those has had a part in some persons death at one point or another in history.

Oh an buckets too... You know babies can drown in a bucket

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by snot

Sorry boys, I have better things to do...going back to the kitchen. I hope I don't burn the food.

My opinion was never up for debate, it's an opinion and its mine. I am not trying to change your mind on what you believe, and again I could of debated both sides. Both are good and bad, I picked one 50/50 chance of it not being what the majority wants. But, with out my opinion this thread would of died long ago. So, now I have home work and house work and my audit at work is due.

having such a firm stance on your own opinion is a disservice to your fellow humans.

everyone needs to understand that their opinion can be wrong. you can be wrong. i can be wrong. we can all be wrong, and probably are wrong most of the time. (obligatory godwin's law) hitlers opinion was wrong. so you saying that your opinion is not up for debate... this is the same as a religious person who is unwilling to discuss with an atheist why they believe in god. "I just have faith" they say. if your opinions are based on facts from reality and not fallacies and lies and untested ideas, then you should be open to discussing your opinions and how they were formed. if your opinion is based on facts, you should be able to properly communicate those facts and how they contribute to the opinion formed. because if those facts aren't logically conclusive to the opinion you formed, you are in fact forming an incorrect opinion.

too many people forget that opinion is FORMED from your view of the world. it is not something that just exists in you already and the outside world must get to it. your opinion will change as time goes on because your view of the outside world changes as time goes on. more information becomes available to you. things look different on the other side of the grass.

do you have the same opinion as you did as a child? are humans of the opposite sex still "icky"? does the tooth fairy collect your fallen teeth? of course not because your opinion on the matter has changed from your learning about each subject. i'm still trying to trap that damn easter bunny though.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by JohnnyBravo

So since any app on any smart phone; lets just ban all smartphones, apps, cell phones, rocks, flip phones, pencils, plastic bags, and medical devices etc etc. Cause each and every one of those has had a part in some persons death at one point or another in history.

Oh an buckets too... You know babies can drown in a bucket

yeah! lets go north korea on this sucka~!

[fishdip]

Originally Posted by JohnnyBravo

So since any app on any smart phone; lets just ban all smartphones, apps, cell phones, rocks, flip phones, pencils, plastic bags, and medical devices etc etc. Cause each and every one of those has had a part in some persons death at one point or another in history.

Oh an buckets too... You know babies can drown in a bucket

Not just babies alex almost die in one last week

[alex.s]

last week? ...every week...

[snot]

Originally Posted by snot

Knowing what is on the road (hazards) is good. The cop thing CAN have a negative impact that CAN out weigh the positive. That is all I was trying to point out..

Originally Posted by snot

I never said make it illegal, I just said I see both sides and decided to debate the side of law enforcement.
I support our rights for freedom, anytime something is made illegal there is always something else the govt tries to slip past. More laws = less freedom.

Originally Posted by snot

All I am doing is pointing out why I agree it CAN be dangerous...Debates on the internet can also be dangerous to your health, when others want to engage like high school kids. Just because you disagree with my OPINION doesn't mean it is all wrong. I never said illegal or to get rid of apps....

Originally Posted by snot

it's an opinion and its mine. I am not trying to change your mind on what you believe, and again I could of debated both sides. Both are good and bad, I picked one 50/50 chance of it not being what the majority wants. But, with out my opinion this thread would of died long ago.

Sturing the pot...on the stove...

I am just a silly girl, obviously I am wrong and should stick to cooking.....

I don't agree with removing the app like the chief wants, but to modify it or investigate other issues it could pose would be a good idea. Just because you think it is right doesn't mean it is... And just because you think my opinion sucks doesn't mean it doesn't hold any value.
You should be happy I even engaged in the conversation, what else could you have done with your time and energy? After all it is winter and us ladies can handle our PMS.

[fishdip]

Originally Posted by snot

Sturing the pot...on the stove...

I am just a silly girl, obviously I am wrong and should stick to cooking.....

I don't agree with removing the app like the chief wants, but to modify it or investigate other issues it could pose would be a good idea. Just because you think it is right doesn't mean it is... And just because you think my opinion sucks doesn't mean it doesn't hold any value.
You should be happy I even engaged in the conversation, what else could you have done with your time and energy? After all it is winter and us ladies can handle our PMS.

Silly women the only place women have on the internet is porn.

[snot]

Originally Posted by fishdip

Silly women the only place women have on the internet is porn.

That's what my mom said!

[Alex]

Originally Posted by snot

Sorry boys, I have better things to do...going back to the kitchen. I hope I don't burn the food.

[liberpolly]

Originally Posted by snot

Sturing the pot...on the stove...

I am just a silly girl, obviously I am wrong and should stick to cooking.....

I don't agree with removing the app like the chief wants, but to modify it or investigate other issues it could pose would be a good idea. Just because you think it is right doesn't mean it is... And just because you think my opinion sucks doesn't mean it doesn't hold any value.
You should be happy I even engaged in the conversation, what else could you have done with your time and energy? After all it is winter and us ladies can handle our PMS.

So when it turns out that your opinion is just plain stupid, you chose to hide behind women liberation? Oh, and "let's investigate other issues it could pose", that's some perennial schtick that never gets old.

[Alex]

[snot]

Originally Posted by liberpolly

So when it turns out that your opinion is just plain stupid, you chose to hide behind women liberation? Oh, and "let's investigate other issues it could pose", that's some perennial schtick that never gets old.

I don't hide. I also have the right to no longer engage in a thread that is constantly derailed from the original topic. Its an opinion not a fact, get over it. I am not going to take this **** any longer. I pointed out the girl thing for sarcasm, just because I chose a side that disagreed with you does not give you the right to belittle me. A proper debate sticks to opinions, points of view and facts on the topic. This particularly thread was on opinion, or at least that is what I was debating, one of my opinions.

Now, I will let it go because I do have better thing's to do. I also choose not to use my phone when driving, so I have no use for this type of app of at this time.

[JohnnyBravo]

[liberpolly]

Originally Posted by snot

I also choose not to use my phone when driving, so I have no use for this type of app of at this time.

Out of curiosity - how do you find your way on unfamiliar roads?
Paper maps?

[JohnnyBravo]

Stop being mean to snot

[snot]

Originally Posted by liberpolly

Out of curiosity - how do you find your way on unfamiliar roads?
Paper maps?

I am not a moron...

1: I use a GPS in my car
2: written or memorize directions
3: I pull in to gas stations or other parking areas when I need to verify a route.
4: I don't randomly drive on unfamiliar roads unless I am intentionally trying to get lost.

I also know how to tell direction based on the Sun, shadows, stars and moss.

[allanoue]

Originally Posted by liberpolly

Out of curiosity - how do you find your way on unfamiliar roads?
Paper maps?

I have agreed with most of your posts in this thread but your last 2 posts are very out of line.
Stop

[JohnnyBravo]

Is it odd that I have one of those big books full of maps... Those things are like fossils (an atlas)

[JohnnyBravo]

Stop being mean to Polly an give him a cracker

[allanoue]

I live on waze but when my gf and I go on a road trip she gets paper maps

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by snot

Sturing the pot...on the stove...

I am just a silly girl, obviously I am wrong and should stick to cooking.....

I don't agree with removing the app like the chief wants, but to modify it or investigate other issues it could pose would be a good idea. Just because you think it is right doesn't mean it is... And just because you think my opinion sucks doesn't mean it doesn't hold any value.
You should be happy I even engaged in the conversation, what else could you have done with your time and energy? After all it is winter and us ladies can handle our PMS.

california has very strict no-cellphone-use rules that very clearly exempts using a cellphone for navigation/gps or directions.
waze is a navigation app with a feature for users to report what they see on the road. nothing more than that.
posting a notification while you are driving would break that law, because you are using your phone for a non-navigation-required action. so if you want to post them you need to stop, or have a passenger.

you are right that using any tool for malice is wrong. i believe (and i think many others here also share my belief) that we should not have to give up our constitutional rights because a few assholes are crazy murderers. being a police officer is a dangerous job. by definition. you deal with the danger to protect others from it. that is what the job is. and so some guy killed some cops. it's terrible and ****ed up. does that mean the police should start dictating what apps we can use, and how we can use them? i believe that going in that direction is a bad idea. i believe when you let small things encroach into your world because of a confined incident you change your society and you change what world children are raised in. it becomes the normal, instead of "temporary, because of ..." there is no "because of", just "is".

let's look at what happened for what it actually was. a distraught chief who was seriously disturbed by losing two of his officers. keep that in mind when you read what he says. would you put much weight behind the words of a grieving widow crying at a funeral? i don't think so.