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Old June 24th, 2017, 09:54 AM   #1
Redsvt
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Handle Bar wobble-driving me nuts

cannot figure out for the life of me why I have handle bar wobble. At speeds of 35mph plus, when I take my hands off the handle bars sometimes they wobble violently, sometimes its slight, other times it does not wobble at all. Here is what I have done so far.

1-Replaced front tire. Still does it
2-Re-balanced the front tire, twice-still does it
3-Had the front rotor checked for drift-still does it
4-Replaced the front wheel bearings-still does
5-Checked the handle bar play (there is none) still does it...

I will re-check the alignment of the rear tire, and check pressure, but I do this on a regular basis anyway. Rear tire is stock size as is the front.

What else do I need to check. Its driving me nuts.
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Old June 24th, 2017, 10:39 AM   #2
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If you spin the front wheel with it off the ground (center stand, jack under the engine), is the rim true? Is the tire true?

Play in the head bearings will cause wobble. With my 250, I can tell if there's any play by making a hard stop with the front brake, because it makes a clunk. With the front wheel off the ground, the bearings need to be set for no play, but not so tight as to cause noticeable friction when steering left and right.

Play in the front or rear wheel bearings or swing arm bushings can also contribute to wobble.
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Old June 24th, 2017, 03:41 PM   #3
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Dented races and , or balls in the steering head bearing will make it shake and steer goofy too, like it wants to find it's own path and is searching, needing constant corrections. (being adjusted too tight will cause these symptoms too)
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Old June 24th, 2017, 03:58 PM   #4
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Fork oil/seals?
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Old June 24th, 2017, 04:04 PM   #5
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Check front to rear wheel alignment too. Sounds like the front is HUNTING for the inline path with the rear.

Hope it's that simple for ya.
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Old June 26th, 2017, 09:13 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Redsvt View Post
cannot figure out for the life of me why I have handle bar wobble. At speeds of 35mph plus, when I take my hands off the handle bars sometimes they wobble violently, sometimes its slight, other times it does not wobble at all. Here is what I have done so far.

1-Replaced front tire. Still does it
2-Re-balanced the front tire, twice-still does it
3-Had the front rotor checked for drift-still does it
4-Replaced the front wheel bearings-still does
5-Checked the handle bar play (there is none) still does it...

I will re-check the alignment of the rear tire, and check pressure, but I do this on a regular basis anyway. Rear tire is stock size as is the front.

What else do I need to check. Its driving me nuts.
Low front tire pressure and/or wheel alignment my be the culprits.

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Old June 26th, 2017, 09:49 AM   #7
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it might be in your head.
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Old June 26th, 2017, 09:59 AM   #8
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it might be in your head.
I had slight "head shake" with only 24 lbs of air in my front tire.

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Old June 26th, 2017, 10:30 AM   #9
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Like with bicycles, upgrading from ball-bearing to roller-bearing headset makes a huge different in smoothness and longevity. Contact area is TINY with ball-bearings and puts intense pressure on the balls and races. Roller-bearing has much larger contact area and spreads out weight & bump-loads over wider area for significantly better durability. For heavy-duty downhill MTB racing, it's easily a 10:1 ratio as far as how much better roller-bearings last compared to ball-bearings.
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Old June 26th, 2017, 11:09 AM   #10
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Like with bicycles, upgrading from ball-bearing to roller-bearing headset makes a huge different in smoothness and longevity. Contact area is TINY with ball-bearings and puts intense pressure on the balls and races. Roller-bearing has much larger contact area and spreads out weight & bump-loads over wider area for significantly better durability. For heavy-duty downhill MTB racing, it's easily a 10:1 ratio as far as how much better roller-bearings last compared to ball-bearings.
Man, like you're "All Balls". You're right!

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Old June 26th, 2017, 11:14 AM   #11
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I would probably buy roller bearing replacements if I had to change head bearings, but the thing that destroys the original ball type is lack of lubrication and the resulting corrosion. I put a grease fitting in the head tube of my 1972 H2 back in the late '70s and have kept it greased since then. The bike as something over 40,000 miles on it, and the bearings still feel like new... no notchiness, easy to adjust, etc..
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Old June 26th, 2017, 11:28 AM   #12
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I would probably buy roller bearing replacements if I had to change head bearings, but the thing that destroys the original ball type is lack of lubrication and the resulting corrosion. I put a grease fitting in the head tube of my 1972 H2 back in the late '70s and have kept it greased since then. The bike as something over 40,000 miles on it, and the bearings still feel like new... no notchiness, easy to adjust, etc..
My God, you still have that old horse? I remember reading in "Cycle" magazine about a guy who put 80k miles on that big ring ding and it was still going - like the EverReady rabbit, bet it still goes like a rabbit too! :-)

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Old June 26th, 2017, 01:20 PM   #13
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Yes, I don't see how I could ever sell it. Until about three years ago, it was the only motorcycle I had ever owned. I took my license test on it in 1978. As of the last top end I did for it a couple years ago, it has H2R port timing, intake reeds, big carbs, expansion chambers, and some other goodies, so it is pretty quick. The chassis is tight and in good condition too, so handling is nothing like the folklore would claim.

One of the Australian guys on the triples board had one that he put something like 80,000 miles on... get this... without even changing the top end! He said the pistons were pretty noisy.

Apologies for this latest hijack.
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Old June 26th, 2017, 02:39 PM   #14
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Yes, I don't see how I could ever sell it. Until about three years ago, it was the only motorcycle I had ever owned. I took my license test on it in 1978. As of the last top end I did for it a couple years ago, it has H2R port timing, intake reeds, big carbs, expansion chambers, and some other goodies, so it is pretty quick. The chassis is tight and in good condition too, so handling is nothing like the folklore would claim.

One of the Australian guys on the triples board had one that he put something like 80,000 miles on... get this... without even changing the top end! He said the pistons were pretty noisy.

Apologies for this latest hijack.
Glad she still keepin' on. There are many times over the years that I wished I had my ol' 500 back. I only had Denco pipes and Uni filters on mine. You ought to shoot us a picture. After all this is a Kaw website.

Cheers,

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Old June 26th, 2017, 03:39 PM   #15
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Old June 26th, 2017, 03:58 PM   #16
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Sweeeet! Stainless steel chambers? I've never seen them before. You're a lucky man! Memories

Thanks,

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Old June 26th, 2017, 04:16 PM   #17
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I made those from mild steel. They're coated with Mop and Glo so they don't rust, but I also make them in 304 stainless.
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Old June 26th, 2017, 06:46 PM   #18
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I made those from mild steel. They're coated with Mop and Glo so they don't rust, but I also make them in 304 stainless.
YOU make them. Wow, then you must be familiar with Gordon Jennings book "Two Stroke Tuner's Handbook". You do beautiful work. Where the hell were you in 1974?

Mop and Glow indeed. Is that an acrylic coating like Future Floor Wax?

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Old June 26th, 2017, 07:39 PM   #19
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I promise to be quiet when Redsvt comes back. Those are actually Denco reproductions, but yes, I know Jennings' book and Bell's book. Thank you for the compliment. Mop and Glo is just a cheap liquid "floor wax", and someone found it works on chambers. In 1974 I was 16, so in high school and just learning to drive, and hadn't discovered triples yet. But in '74 Denco was at their peak, and their pipes were about $225 maybe. Wirges pipes were less, like $189 or something, so that's why you see so many of those around even today, but they were not Dencos!
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Old July 25th, 2017, 12:33 PM   #20
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OK.....update.
Removed from tire, re-installed, re-balanced.
Removed rear tire, re-installed, re-balanced...need more weight this time.
Alignment checked, forks re-calibrated and checked, they are perfectly straight.
Loosened and re-torqued all nuts on steering.
Bike shows some improvement, but still head shakes. Only thing I have not done is change out the steering bearings...but there is no clunking on the front end when I brake hard and rock it back and forth. Side to side play is very smooth as well.

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.
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Old July 25th, 2017, 12:50 PM   #21
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any play in the fork stanchions?
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Old July 25th, 2017, 01:00 PM   #22
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I loosened all the bolts and re-torqued everything. To me it all looks great. But something is clearly out of whack. Tire pressure is to factory specs. Just for the record, it has been doing this for a while. When it first started I had the front tire replaced, about four months before that I had a new rear tire. I have since re-balanced both tires.
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Old July 25th, 2017, 01:25 PM   #23
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I don't think you ever said if you got each wheel off the ground and spun it to see it both are true.
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Old July 25th, 2017, 01:27 PM   #24
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Both are true, I checked them this morning right after rebalancing.
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Old July 25th, 2017, 01:29 PM   #25
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I think I might just go ahead and replace out the head bearings with sealed all bearing. From what I can determine that might do the trick. Bike has never been dropped, and utterly babied and kept in a garage when not used.
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Old July 25th, 2017, 02:39 PM   #26
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I guess I'd confirm the rear axle alignment if you haven't already.

How old are the tires? Do they have any scalloped tread wear? Even though they balanced, I don't think that's a guarantee that they are not causing the problems.
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Old July 25th, 2017, 03:07 PM   #27
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Rear tire is about 2 1/2 years old, front tire is 1 year old. Only have about 3k accumulated mileage on these. In fact I replaced the front one as it was has been wobbling for a while and thought the front tire was the culprit, alas not as it still wobbles. I use Pro-Align to check for alignment and its as good as I can get it.
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Old July 25th, 2017, 03:15 PM   #28
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Quote:
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Loosened and re-torqued all nuts on steering.
Does that include the slotted nut under the top triple clamp? That's the most important one you should be checking - and you need a special steering stem nut socket to do that.

Assuming you did check that, what value did you torque it to? A lot of people screw up that torque value with the value of the top nut and wreck their bearings.

250/300 riders who get the common wobble shouldn't waste their time checking, balancing or changing tires. Go directly to the slotted steering stem nut and check that first. If it's loose, properly torque it, and if the wobble comes back, it's time to install roller bearings. That's it.
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Old July 25th, 2017, 03:26 PM   #29
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I did just purchase a steering stem adjustable wrench....that was the next thing on my list. Will do that and report back. Will do this before I spring for bearings.
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Old July 25th, 2017, 03:42 PM   #30
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I did just purchase a steering stem adjustable wrench....that was the next thing on my list. Will do that and report back. Will do this before I spring for bearings.
If this has been mentioned earlier I apologize but I'm not going to reread this entire thread.

I felt my Ninja was riding a-little harsh so I decided to try the recommended tire pressures for my Honda. I took the front tire down to 24 lbs. and had head shake at about 40 M.P.H. Brought the tire pressure back up to 28 lbs. No head shake.

For what it's worth.

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Old July 25th, 2017, 08:25 PM   #31
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Ok.......I have some improvement. Busted out the steering stem adjuster wrench, Zaph42, that was in fact one thing I had not checked. Anyway according to my manual that slotted nut needs to be turned no more than 1/8th at a time. I choose to loosen it and it moved without any force. So I chose to tighten. Spec is 43 inch pounds. There is a slot on the wrench to insert a ratchet, so I can attach my inch pounds torque wrench, set it to 43 inch pounds, but it never clicked. I was applying what I thought was a fair amount. Anyway rather than going to over tighten, I backed off a bit and went for a ride. Low and behold, it is still there but greatly diminished. So I am not sure if my torque wrench is faulty but I will go a tad tighter tomorrow. Feeling wise any idea how much 44inch pounds is. Based on how loose the nut was, I don't believe it to be too much. But I don't want to jack the bearings. I think I might be barking up the right tree. Thank Zaph42
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Old July 25th, 2017, 11:26 PM   #32
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Ok.......I have some improvement. Busted out the steering stem adjuster wrench, Zaph42, that was in fact one thing I had not checked. Anyway according to my manual that slotted nut needs to be turned no more than 1/8th at a time. I choose to loosen it and it moved without any force. So I chose to tighten. Spec is 43 inch pounds. There is a slot on the wrench to insert a ratchet, so I can attach my inch pounds torque wrench, set it to 43 inch pounds, but it never clicked. I was applying what I thought was a fair amount. Anyway rather than going to over tighten, I backed off a bit and went for a ride. Low and behold, it is still there but greatly diminished. So I am not sure if my torque wrench is faulty but I will go a tad tighter tomorrow. Feeling wise any idea how much 44inch pounds is. Based on how loose the nut was, I don't believe it to be too much. But I don't want to jack the bearings. I think I might be barking up the right tree. Thank Zaph42
A "steering stem adjuster wrench". Looks like a new tool for my collection along with a n inch/pound torque wrench. I too thank Zsph42 and you.

Bill
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Old July 26th, 2017, 12:15 AM   #33
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Ok.......I have some improvement. Busted out the steering stem adjuster wrench, Zaph42, that was in fact one thing I had not checked. Anyway according to my manual that slotted nut needs to be turned no more than 1/8th at a time. I choose to loosen it and it moved without any force. So I chose to tighten. Spec is 43 inch pounds. There is a slot on the wrench to insert a ratchet, so I can attach my inch pounds torque wrench, set it to 43 inch pounds, but it never clicked. I was applying what I thought was a fair amount. Anyway rather than going to over tighten, I backed off a bit and went for a ride. Low and behold, it is still there but greatly diminished. So I am not sure if my torque wrench is faulty but I will go a tad tighter tomorrow. Feeling wise any idea how much 44inch pounds is. Based on how loose the nut was, I don't believe it to be too much. But I don't want to jack the bearings. I think I might be barking up the right tree. Thank Zaph42
You might find this helpful;

https://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Steeri...ng_replacement

Bill
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Old July 26th, 2017, 06:54 AM   #34
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A "steering stem adjuster wrench". Looks like a new tool for my collection along with a n inch/pound torque wrench. I too thank Zsph42 and you.

Bill
After I installed the All Balls tapered bearing kit, I must admit that I cheated and used a clutch removal tool to tighten the nut to a manual estimation of torque. I've been using torque wrenches for half my life, so I think I'm pretty good at estimated torque.

If I were still torquing the OEM ball bearings I don't think I would cheat with a manual torque though. Balls and races are dented so easy in those. Tapered rollers take much more torque without damage.
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Old July 26th, 2017, 07:17 AM   #35
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After I installed the All Balls tapered bearing kit, I must admit that I cheated and used a clutch removal tool to tighten the nut to a manual estimation of torque. I've been using torque wrenches for half my life, so I think I'm pretty good at estimated torque.

If I were still torquing the OEM ball bearings I don't think I would cheat with a manual torque though. Balls and races are dented so easy in those. Tapered rollers take much more torque without damage.
I've re-greased and replaced many tapered roller bearings on auto front wheels and never used a torque wrench. I never had a wheel fly off or a wheel bearing lock-up. Just tighten the adjusting nut down and back it off 1/4 turn. Easy.

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Old July 26th, 2017, 09:10 AM   #36
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Yeah, roller bearings can take a lot of abuse and have wide range of operating pre-load. Even if it's too tight, it'll just wear into proper clearance! Too loose is actually worse as that causes all load to be taken by bearing at bottom and wear-rate is faster.

I usually use bicycle lockring tool.
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Old July 26th, 2017, 09:19 AM   #37
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I don't think you want to back off 1/4 turn for steering bearings, Bill. That's a car wheel bearing thing.
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Old July 26th, 2017, 11:34 AM   #38
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How about snugging the collar down slowly until you notice some resistance to the forks tipping to the side from center - then backing it off a smidge?

If they will not drop all the way to the stop from center with a slight touch they are too tight.
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Old July 26th, 2017, 12:23 PM   #39
Ram Jet
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Originally Posted by Triple Jim View Post
I don't think you want to back off 1/4 turn for steering bearings, Bill. That's a car wheel bearing thing.
So noted.

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Old July 26th, 2017, 01:53 PM   #40
Redsvt
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Well, I throw in the towel. At this juncture I might as well by the All Bearings tapered kit. I cranked the steering stem nut tight, backed it off. Went for a ride....NO wobble. Great I thought. Turned around in the street got up to 50mph, let off the gas took my hands of the bars, there it was, WOBBLE WOBBLE.....Dunzo at this point. If the steering bearings are not F%$#%up there probably are now. I had that thing down tight, and still wobbled.
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