FI version tuning

[pomartin]

Hy

i have a few questiones about 2008 fuel injected ninja 250R performance modifications.

If i made any changes- change airfilter, slip-on or full exhaust system, power commander.... Do i have to do anything else?
this is my first FI bike, so for now i know only that i can not re-jett it... and this is kind of new for me...
Is FI system self-adjusting, or do i have to do some changes in PWC?.. or maby take it to the nearest tunning servicer to set PWC up?

for start, i have in plans to change stock airfilter with K&N, and muffler with akrapovič one.
then maby this PWC: http://www.power-commander-shop.com/...070_236-411-00

Please help

[Jiggles]

Only aftermarket fuel injection systems will autotune. If you make any major changes, like new exhaust, or pod filters, then you will likely need a power commander to change the fuel input. Your EFI system has a set air to fuel ratio, it knows what the air input is when stock and so it uses a map to figure out how much fuel to add to that. If you make any mods, you will increase the air flow, but the bike won't know you've done that and will continue putting in the same amount of gas. This will make your bike run lean. Running too lean will damage your engine.

You could probably get away with a slip on exhaust but most other mods would require you to also change the fuel input

[pomartin]

i googled for aftermarket fuel injection system for ninja 250r but didnt found nothing... so is powercommander the thing i need, so my bike wont run lean after any changes ?

and sory for stupid questiones.. i am newbie in a 4stroke-computer controlled world...

[loz944]

I asked similar questions and yes the power commander is the way to go also le vince do one

[pomartin]

Thanx

ok i found their maps.. is this it?: http://www.leovince.com/en/catalog-k...008_2009/12087

so can i use their maps on any PWC with their exhaust, or do i need to buy their PWC?

.. and how about using their maps with different aftermarket exhaust? would it be better than stock PWC map?

[loz944]

Originally Posted by pomartin

Thanx

ok i found their maps.. is this it?: http://www.leovince.com/en/catalog-k...008_2009/12087

so can i use their maps on any PWC with their exhaust, or do i need to buy their PWC?

.. and how about using their maps with different aftermarket exhaust? would it be better than stock PWC map?

yes that's it as for using with a different PWC I am not sure if the software/format etc are compatible.

as for using on different exhausts again all systems are different it is really something that should be matched to the exhaust you are running......powercomander site has many maps to download .

[pomartin]

this site? powercommander.com

and one more question.. i was told that 08 is the same as 09, 10, 11 and 12... so how come there is no powercommander 5 for 08?

[mrcrunch]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

Only aftermarket fuel injection systems will autotune. If you make any major changes, like new exhaust, or pod filters, then you will likely need a power commander to change the fuel input. Your EFI system has a set air to fuel ratio, it knows what the air input is when stock and so it uses a map to figure out how much fuel to add to that. If you make any mods, you will increase the air flow, but the bike won't know you've done that and will continue putting in the same amount of gas. This will make your bike run lean. Running too lean will damage your engine.

You could probably get away with a slip on exhaust but most other mods would require you to also change the fuel input

Do you know this for sure? MAP based EFI on cars use the O2 sensor to tune the A/F mixture. You can increase breath-ability all day long with no upgrades to the electronics or fuel injectors. Except at WOT in closed loop mode.

Does the ninja FI system not used an open loop mode with the O2?

[Jiggles]

Nope, EFI ninjas have no O2 sensors, I know most cars do, I don't think many bikes do

[mrcrunch]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

Nope, EFI ninjas have no O2 sensors, I know most cars do, I don't think many bikes do

ok. I was wondering.

That's just more info to back up how archaic FI is on bikes. They need to catch up. Cars have had highly tuned FI on budget economy cars for over 20 years now. My 87 dodge was more efficient (with respect to displacement, weight and economy) than my 2007 kawi, lol.

I mean, carbs? how quaint. ;-)

[raybolic]

I'd probably choose power commander 5 over LV's fast inject.. I haven't heard many ppl use LV fast inject so there's gonna be a lot less support when you need it.

[DaBlue1]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

Nope, EFI ninjas have no O2 sensors, I know most cars do, I don't think many bikes do

These are the list of sensors on the bike;
O2 sensor
Speed Sensor
Main Throttle Sensor
Subthrottle Sensor
Vehicle down Sensor
Crankshaft Sensor
Water Temp Sensor
Inlet Air Temp Sensor (mounted on the airbox)
Inlet Air Pressure Sensor (aka Kleen Air System)

Originally Posted by raybolic

I'd probably choose power commander 5 over LV's fast inject.. I haven't heard many ppl use LV fast inject so there's gonna be a lot less support when you need it.

LeoVince Exhaust Systems have a new ECU for the EFI version 250 Ninjas. These units will be installed in the 250 Ninjas for The WSBK European Junior Cup. Race-equipped Junior Cup Kawasaki Ninja 250R bikes will be equipped with a full race exhaust and ECU from LeoVince. I imagine that being a sanctioned race sponsor they would have a full support system.

http://www.leovince.com/en/catalog-k...008_2009/12087

Leo Vince has a system that works with or without the O2 sensor
http://www.leovince.com/en/catalog-k...008_2009/12087

The Power Commander bypasses the O2 sensor, which you need a plug (O2 eliminator)for.
http://www.power-commander-shop.com/...inja-250-R.htm

[DaBlue1]

Originally Posted by pomartin

...i googled for aftermarket fuel injection system for ninja 250r but didnt found nothing....

Kawasaki Ninja 250cc Fuel Injection Conversion kit
http://ecotrons.com/Kawasaki_Ninja_250cc_EFI_kit.html

[greg737]

Originally Posted by mrcrunch

Do you know this for sure? MAP based EFI on cars use the O2 sensor to tune the A/F mixture. You can increase breath-ability all day long with no upgrades to the electronics or fuel injectors. Except at WOT in closed loop mode.

Does the ninja FI system not used an open loop mode with the O2?

You're not quite right here. Most factory EFI systems (cars and motorcycles) use one or more narrow-band O2 sensors, but these sensors aren't used in the manner you've described. These sensors are there mainly to confirm that the EFI system is functioning as it was designed to by the engineers. And on cars most of their concern is centered around emissions control.

In a factory EFI system the narrow-band O2 sensors are mainly there to confirm that the fueling is occuring correctly. If the system gets slightly off and the narrow-band O2 sensor reports crossing its 14.7 to 1 air/fuel ratio sweetspot at the wrong time the system is programmed to compensate a bit.

But if the narrow-band O2 sensor continually reports instances of "crossing 14.7" at weird or unexpected times compared to what the ECU is factory programmed for, as it would if you'd changed or modified the intake and exhaust, the EFI system will "throw a code" for maintenance and might even go into a "limp-home" mode.

You might have been thinking about a wide-band O2 sensor system, which is much more complex and expensive. An aftermarket EFI system like the Microsquirt ECU that I use on my EFI project bike is purposefully set up for use with a wide-band O2 system so it can carry out "self tuning" operations on a do-it-yourself fuel injection system. A wide-band O2 system (the wide-band sensor plus a wide-band controller and a wide-band capable ECU) can read the whole spectrum of air/fuel ratios that an engine might experience during operation (while a narrow-band can only report when the air/fuel ratio crosses 14.7 to 1 air/fuel ratio).

You don't find wide-band O2 sensors on production vehicles because they cost quite a bit, they don't last nearly as long as narrow-band, and vehicle engineers don't need them anyway because they develop the car or motorcycle in a laboratory type environment in which they account for the engine's entire operating envelope ahead of time during testing.

They don't need or want to build in adaptability to allow people to change exhausts or intakes, where's the profit in that? There isn't any profit in that, which is why there's so many warnings about actions like that "voiding warranty". Messing with or changing the equipment, as installed at the factory, is bad for reliability which is the goal of a vehicle producer.

Having said all that, there's always an exception to every rule. There are aftermarket EFI systems that can do a pretty good amount of "auto tuning" activity. There's some tricky programming that can allow the ECU to predict and react to the small amount of information that a narrow-band sensor provides. The Ecotrons system does this.

[pomartin]

Originally Posted by DaBlue1

Kawasaki Ninja 250cc Fuel Injection Conversion kit
http://ecotrons.com/Kawasaki_Ninja_250cc_EFI_kit.html

as far as i understand this is convertion kit.. so if you want to change carburetors with FI you use this... but i allready have FI.

And yes, FI ninja have O2 sensor

[Somchai]

Martin,

you can tune the FI-Ninjette also and much easier then you can do to a carb-version, maybe not as cheap as.
The first get a good exhaust system, it must be a full system and here the leovince evo2 would be one of the best selections.
For the second you can get the leovince fast fuel-system with the right mapping (see the link above, this is the right on) and with the full-system exhaust you choose ref. 8408 (with or without air box modification). For this modification you need the o2-sensor removal plug and remove the o2 sensor(this is a MUST). But if you like you can get the PCV also, there you don't have a map, so you need a dynorun (what also would be good with the leo FAST). The Autotune I wouldn't recommend.
The third change is to disconnect the KLEEN air system but don't disconnect the sensor because this will give you an error in the fi-system. You only close the hoses.
Number four take out the catalytic converter (this is a can, so you must not do but i would recommend).
With this changes you should have around 40 to 42 hp.
If you need your engine be very aggressive, then go and buy the ignition advancer from Factorypro. This will give you a 5 degree advanced ignition. The plus in power is maybe 1 or 2 hp only, but the engine feels very strong.
If this is not enough then you can send your ecu to Kiirus http://kiirus.in/ to get your ecu remapped what gives you 3.5 to 4 hp more.
And the last idea is to get an electrical waterpump what gives you 3 more hp.
So at least it is easy to get 50 plus/minus 2 hp with the fi-model.
This all will be app. 2,000 USD in cost.

But never forget when you change your engine to have it stronger that the brake always MUST BE STRONGER then the engine. So it strongest recommended to change your brake calipers to brembo calipers, 4-pot in the front and 2-pot in the rear.
Good luck.

[pomartin]

woow dude.. tnx
i owe you a beer man hehe... actually a whole barrel :P

its preety expensive... maby i will apply all this changes in future... current account balance wont let me xD... but i guess it may be better to buy a stronger bike hehe... but then again, the bike would be unike and strong enough for a few more years :P

Does somebody know how all this tunning would affect engine life-time, service cost.. and so on?

Guess i will go with tunning... my problem is that i prefer tunning than driveing.. i know its wird, but the best thing for me is to see and feel how a change you made affect engine performance

[the big mike]

Originally Posted by Somchai

Martin,

you can tune the FI-Ninjette also and much easier then you can do to a carb-version, maybe not as cheap as.
The first get a good exhaust system, it must be a full system and here the leovince evo2 would be one of the best selections.
For the second you can get the leovince fast fuel-system with the right mapping (see the link above, this is the right on) and with the full-system exhaust you choose ref. 8408 (with or without air box modification). For this modification you need the o2-sensor removal plug and remove the o2 sensor(this is a MUST). But if you like you can get the PCV also, there you don't have a map, so you need a dynorun (what also would be good with the leo FAST). The Autotune I wouldn't recommend.
The third change is to disconnect the KLEEN air system but don't disconnect the sensor because this will give you an error in the fi-system. You only close the hoses.
Number four take out the catalytic converter (this is a can, so you must not do but i would recommend).
With this changes you should have around 40 to 42 hp.
If you need your engine be very aggressive, then go and buy the ignition advancer from Factorypro. This will give you a 5 degree advanced ignition. The plus in power is maybe 1 or 2 hp only, but the engine feels very strong.
If this is not enough then you can send your ecu to Kiirus http://kiirus.in/ to get your ecu remapped what gives you 3.5 to 4 hp more.
And the last idea is to get an electrical waterpump what gives you 3 more hp.
So at least it is easy to get 50 plus/minus 2 hp with the fi-model.
This all will be app. 2,000 USD in cost.

But never forget when you change your engine to have it stronger that the brake always MUST BE STRONGER then the engine. So it strongest recommended to change your brake calipers to brembo calipers, 4-pot in the front and 2-pot in the rear.
Good luck.

Your post is just... complete This is exactly the type of information I want to find on this forum. As noobs, we need a full explanation just like the one you just gave us. I had no idea my bike could be modded this extremely and even if I did, I would never ever know where to start.
Thank you man, good job

[Jevans]

Originally Posted by Somchai

Martin,

you can tune the FI-Ninjette also and much easier then you can do to a carb-version, maybe not as cheap as.
The first get a good exhaust system, it must be a full system and here the leovince evo2 would be one of the best selections.
For the second you can get the leovince fast fuel-system with the right mapping (see the link above, this is the right on) and with the full-system exhaust you choose ref. 8408 (with or without air box modification). For this modification you need the o2-sensor removal plug and remove the o2 sensor(this is a MUST). But if you like you can get the PCV also, there you don't have a map, so you need a dynorun (what also would be good with the leo FAST). The Autotune I wouldn't recommend.
The third change is to disconnect the KLEEN air system but don't disconnect the sensor because this will give you an error in the fi-system. You only close the hoses.
Number four take out the catalytic converter (this is a can, so you must not do but i would recommend).
With this changes you should have around 40 to 42 hp.
If you need your engine be very aggressive, then go and buy the ignition advancer from Factorypro. This will give you a 5 degree advanced ignition. The plus in power is maybe 1 or 2 hp only, but the engine feels very strong.
If this is not enough then you can send your ecu to Kiirus http://kiirus.in/ to get your ecu remapped what gives you 3.5 to 4 hp more.
And the last idea is to get an electrical waterpump what gives you 3 more hp.
So at least it is easy to get 50 plus/minus 2 hp with the fi-model.
This all will be app. 2,000 USD in cost.

But never forget when you change your engine to have it stronger that the brake always MUST BE STRONGER then the engine. So it strongest recommended to change your brake calipers to brembo calipers, 4-pot in the front and 2-pot in the rear.
Good luck.

Sorry to bring this topic back from the dead, but thats utter bull. I came on here to share my tuning tips with other Ninja 250R owners, because its a very quiet topic at the moment - You claim 50hp? Not a hope in hell.

Over here in England, I drag race motorcycles for cash on the side. I've invested over £6,000 ($10000) in performance mods. My 2008 Ninja 250R is currently sporting:

A 283cc bore.
High performance K&N air filters.
A twin Yoshimura expansion exhaust system.
A custom electronic throttle and launch system.
18" Pirelli Demon rear tyre.
A custom built 1.2" induction turbo system @ 3/4 bar.
Custom stream efficient panels.
Ultra light weight wheels, front and back.
A finely tuned PC with over 800 dyno test runs for maximum gain.
High pressure electronic cooling system linked to upgraded battery.
Along with smaller upgrades like windshields, streamline mirrors etc.

My bike dyno'd with 51bhp at the rear wheel, does 0-60mph in 4.6 seconds and has a top speed of 'off the clocks' or 121mph (measured by GPS)

You're telling my that you've changed a few filters and put an exhaust on to get a 20hp gain. Bollocks. Not only have you lied to the community, but you've embarrassed yourself. I'd understand if you were claiming 50hp at the crank, but at the rear wheel. No.

Seriously guys, if you want to improve an FI Ninja 250R, purchase a PC and some dyno calibrating time, a full exhaust system and some air filter pods. It'll cost you around £800-1000 ($1400-1700) and it'll give you a gain of around 5hp over stock, bringing you to roughly 31/32bhp total. Any other performance gain you can achieve is into serious money.

Sorry I ranted.

Ride safe.