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Old August 2nd, 2017, 12:15 PM   #1
Ninjettin_it_25O
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"New" Vesrah pads feel smooth and not gritty. Is this right?

Hello members of ninjette, hope you're all having a good week. Making this post in regard to some "new" vesrah sintered HH pads I bought off of ebay for my bike.... They are the model VD 427 JL for the front brakes. I just opened the "new" package, which was obviously opened up before and closed again with staples/tape. But I guess this doesnt mean they were definitely used and put back in the pacakage.. Hence this post.

After further inspection of the pads, the material feels smooth (minimal grittyness) and leaves some residue if I rub them with my fingers.. The package looks old, so maybe this just built up overtime or bouncing around when shipping.. Idk. Is this how a sintered pad they should be? Or are the pads likely used and need to be returned? My organic kevlars felt very gritty out of the packages, these are my first sintered pads. Any help is appreciated!!
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Old August 2nd, 2017, 02:12 PM   #2
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Hi and welcome!

Post photos of your pads and let's see what they look like. Organic pads are at bottom of performance heap, so it's not uncommon for them to have inconsistent composition.
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Old August 2nd, 2017, 03:27 PM   #3
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Should have got RJL pads, way better especially for "classic" brake equipment. Sintered pads are garbage.
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Old August 2nd, 2017, 03:38 PM   #4
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^^^ I have no clue what John is talking about.

Been using sintered pads for years. I made the switch to the vesrahs about 2yrs ago. Nothing but good comments on them in my experience.

ps... Moved my brake marker about a bike length in the brake zone. That is positive in my book.
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Old August 2nd, 2017, 06:42 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Zaph42 View Post
Should have got RJL pads, way better especially for "classic" brake equipment. Sintered pads are garbage.
Just put a set of RJLs on my street SV.

The brakes weren't terrible, but they do have better initial bite and overall better feel with the Vesrah pads.
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Old August 2nd, 2017, 07:02 PM   #6
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You should be able to see if they're used by looking for the streaks that would be made by the rotating disk, and by the thickness. Heck, I bought a used Ninja 250 caliper and made an adapter so I could put it on my 1972 H2. It had EBC HH sindered pads that were about 1/4 worn out, but they still work very well, so I'm going to go ahead and use them.

EBC HH sintered pads are good in my experience.
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Old August 2nd, 2017, 07:47 PM   #7
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Maybe you can see enough of the pads in my pic?

Full size
https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4281/3...8b2a3144_o.jpg

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Old August 2nd, 2017, 08:32 PM   #8
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I can't see much, but an opened package may mean that someone tried to use them and discovered they were the wrong ones, so he put them back in the package.
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Old August 3rd, 2017, 07:40 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkv45 View Post
Just put a set of RJLs on my street SV.

The brakes weren't terrible, but they do have better initial bite and overall better feel with the Vesrah pads.
Yeah that's what I mean. The initial bite is the most important on weak OEM brakes.

The pad the OP bought are bottom of the barrel and in general purchased because they are cheap. Weak initial bite and not fade resistant at all. But... The pads are probably fine if the bike is just a commuter and replacing old OEM pads.

I know RJL's are popular on SV650's too.
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Old August 3rd, 2017, 07:48 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by algs26 View Post
Maybe you can see enough of the pads in my pic?

Full size
https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4281/3...8b2a3144_o.jpg

I don't see any obvious evidence of wear. I'm not sure what you're really expecting wrt the feel of the pads. I've never felt a "rough" new pad.
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Old August 3rd, 2017, 08:50 AM   #11
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Well, interesting stuff going on here.

Is this just an SV thing? I have tried many different pads but always seem to come back to something sintered. Honestly, I am confused AF.... I lift the rear on corner entry every track day and have raced enough races to know that my EBC HH (250 & r6) and Vesrah on the track bike get the job done enough to be damn near lap record pace.

Pretty open minded guy here... What gives on the RJL's? Is it just the initial bite you guys are looking for? If so.... then we can talk further about 200ft+ of sustained EXTREME braking. The initial bite is important, but it aint everything. In fact, the more I ride, the less extreme initial bite I want. Application is important though, skill and street vs track riding will dictate what you like better I am guessing by the context of this thread.

Help a guy out here, what is the real deal?
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Old August 3rd, 2017, 11:38 AM   #12
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When you say EBC HH, you have to specificy which ones. The base model HH sintered or organic are horrible. The only good ebc pads are EPFA (Extreme Pro) and GPFA (racing)

Base model HH pads (of any make) generally have lower friction, initial and sustained, and lower fade resistance. EP and GP are both fade resistant and higher friction but differ a bit. EP pads have lower initial bite while GP is higher initial bite. GP pads also have to heat up more so they are considered racing only. My 675R I used EP because with the Brembo power on those GP is too much that control via level modulation is more difficult. But if you enjoy 1 finger braking on supersports and can get good lever control, GP might work.

Brake systems that are weak from the factory such as Ninja 250 and 300 and SV650's, need both higher initial bite and higher sustained resistance. Then not only do you get more braking force with your initial grab, you get more control via less grip strength required at the lever.

I think Vesrah RJL are somewhere between EP and GP and they are totally fade resistant. EBC doesn't make GP pads for these crusty old calipers. I would be all over them if they did. But Vesrah RJL's come close.

I've heard so many complaints about base model HH pads at the race track that I would never run them. I've seen some warped into a smiley face shape. My very first track day years ago I had base model HH pads. Weak, fading crap. I hated them.

All IMHO. everyone has differing experiences.
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Old August 3rd, 2017, 11:45 AM   #13
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I'll have to double check, but I thought all EBC HH pads were sintered, and I didn't think EBC sold more than one type of HH rated pads. HH, of course, refers to the coefficient of friction, numbers farther from A being higher. The first letter refers to cold pads and the second hot.
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Old August 3rd, 2017, 11:57 AM   #14
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Braking performance for various Vesrah pads:



Why aren't the regular plain JL pads shown here? Because people who buy them are generally not concerned about performance.
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Old August 3rd, 2017, 12:49 PM   #15
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I'm currently running the EBC Extreme HH pad on both the 250, and 500 and I'm very happy with their performance.

To each his own.
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Old August 3rd, 2017, 01:06 PM   #16
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I'm currently running the EBC Extreme HH pad on both the 250, and 500 and I'm very happy with their performance.

To each his own.
Yea, I am also running the EBC Extreme HH pads on the 250 and street r6. Last season I switched to the SRJL XX on my track r6 and it has been more fitting to my current riding style and skill.

Thanks y'alls for the added info.
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Old August 3rd, 2017, 01:24 PM   #17
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I'll have to double check, but I thought all EBC HH pads were sintered, and I didn't think EBC sold more than one type of HH rated pads. HH, of course, refers to the coefficient of friction, numbers farther from A being higher. The first letter refers to cold pads and the second hot.
I don't know if that's the case. EBC GPFA pads are still considered HH pads, and those have wicked high friction. Typical model numbers are GPFAxxxHH. I had tried those on my '13 675R and the friction was so high I found it to be difficult to control. (or maybe I'm just too meat fisted on the brakes) I had to go back to the EPFA pads to get more control while trail braking.
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Old August 3rd, 2017, 01:47 PM   #18
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I checked EBC's site and the DOT brake pad codes. It looks like any pad with a coefficient of friction between 0.55 and 0.65 is considered HH. EBC does say the GPFAX pads are race-only, very high friction and not recommended for street use. They're only good for racing tires on a race-prepared surface. I learned something today.

I may try their EPFA pads on the H2 next time, which they say are based on their HH pads, with some additional ingredients.
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Old August 4th, 2017, 08:01 PM   #19
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Thanks for all the feedback everyone, sorry for the late reply. Just gettting back on here now. Happy Friday!

After getting some feedback from a couple of sources the other day I installed the pads. Having just finished a caliper rebuild along with changing out the pads and deglazing the rotor, I tried the zip tie trick to help finish bleeding.. The brake pads themselves felt pretty good after some bed-in stops, and I like the rough bite I get off the pads. Still cant get a firm lever though.. Pretty stuck atm. Might need to rebuild the master cylinder or replace the oem lines (This is a used 2000 EX250, probably never had the lines swapped).

However I'm having trouble seeing how it could be anything but air in the lines. Before I rebuilt the nasty gunked up front caliper the brakes were plenty firm when you pressed the lever.. But I did stupidly let the MC get completely dry when removing the line from the caliper, so I started with a dry MC when refilling the system. Took me using a long hose on the caliper's bleeder valve and making a vacuum with my mouth to get the fluid moving again.

After this I went on to try conventional bleeding, the zip tie trick twice (tapping the lines etc.), bled at the MC banjo bolt (which definitely had air in it, first bleed splattered all over the place), and replacing with fresh fluid after the zip tie trick to help remove the contaminated fluid. Even tried reverse bleed method with a syringe/hose, but the syringe could have been better for this application. So I'm up for buying one of those big animal feeder ones and trying it again.. My first attempt at the reverse bleed got me a lot closer to having a good lever, but still no luck :/. After the last attempt at the zip tie trick I still only have like 40-60% of what should be there. Haven't measured the rotor or anything yet, but it looks fine and I haven't had any brake wobble since purchasing this bike. Hoping to get this done soon, considering buying a vacuum bleeder and trying that next.
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Old August 4th, 2017, 08:03 PM   #20
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Here are the pics of my pads before I installed them. sorry I forgot to link them!
http://imgur.com/a/moTEV
http://imgur.com/a/5qsw2
http://imgur.com/a/OF5OY
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Old August 4th, 2017, 09:12 PM   #21
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If everything is uphill from the caliper to the MC, it may get better with time. Every front brake system I have on my motorcycles will bleed themselves, given enough squeezes of the lever, even without tying the lever to the handlebar overnight.
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Old August 4th, 2017, 10:09 PM   #22
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Here are the pics of my pads before I installed them. sorry I forgot to link them!
http://imgur.com/a/moTEV
http://imgur.com/a/5qsw2
http://imgur.com/a/OF5OY
Brand new unused from the one photo I looked at.

I'd just give them a quick blast with some brake clean or contact cleaner and get them in.
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Old August 4th, 2017, 10:19 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Zaph42 View Post
When you say EBC HH, you have to specificy which ones. The base model HH sintered or organic are horrible. The only good ebc pads are EPFA (Extreme Pro) and GPFA (racing).
I've been using the "base" HH compound sintered EBC pads for years in my TZ's with a feel I like etc and never have a fade problem etc, though I'm not that desperate on the brakes!

BUT, I have to say I ordered up a set of HH's for the Ninja as they are the pads I like and frankly was disappointed. Stopped okay, but no matter what I did, I could not get a good lever. Always lots of travel and not very good on the confidence scale.

I fitted a set of Street Sinter Vortex pads and even when the pads were not even bedded in the lever "came back" and was what you'd expect to feel for a nicely bled system.

Never had that before. The Vortex pads wear fast though...two - three days of racing and they are done, where I usually get ages out of everything else.

Thanks for your comments on the the GPFA andf EPFA etc - I have not until recently found them for many of my bikes.
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Old August 5th, 2017, 12:37 AM   #24
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You should be able to see if they're used by looking for the streaks that would be made by the rotating disk, and by the thickness. Heck, I bought a used Ninja 250 caliper and made an adapter so I could put it on my 1972 H2. It had EBC HH sindered pads that were about 1/4 worn out, but they still work very well, so I'm going to go ahead and use them.

EBC HH sintered pads are good in my experience.
I just replaced my rear pads and the O.E.M.s were sintered. I replaced them with sintered pads - reluctantly. There are light wear groves on my discs from the sintered pads. My 82' Honda has had nothing on it but organic pads and the discs are as smooth as a baby's ass. I personally don't like sintered pads because I believe they damage the discs. I don't mind replacing organic pads more often. The damage was done so I used the sintered aftermarket pads as a replacement.

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