Panic Stop Practice gets Panicky...

[Jerry]

I don't preach much on safety, but I'm a true believer in practicing quick stopping...

A recent thread on back wheel locking got me thinking about it again.

I thought I'd try a little quick stop practice without pulling in the clutch. Certainly wasn't planning on locking anything up.

This was on a deserted road at about 12:30 am....dark

As I was hauling 'er down from about 45mph, without pulling the clutch (trying to go 'real world'...I mean, will I really think about pulling the clutch in a 'real' emergency?) I noticed the headlight dim, and kinda heard the engine stall....so yeah I pulled in the clutch...

But the engine was already stalled.....I let off the brakes, kept the clutch pulled in, and coasted along at maybe 10-15mph...and pushed in the starter button....well, the bike didn't start on the first try, and WHOA...the headlight stayed off! Darkness! Still moving! CRAP!!

Pulled in all speed with the brakes, and kinda lurched to a stop in the darkness...took a couple of deep breaths, pushed the starter again, and light, beautiful light, as the engine caught and started...

The takeaway for me was to use caution when restarting a stalled engine, on a rolling Ninja in the dark....stop completely first, then restart the engine.

That headlight-kill-while-starting feature doesn't seem to know when you are moving, and the headlight will go out with the start switch, regardless of speed. Additionally, if the engine doesn't start right up, the headlight will stay off, until the engine is running.

Maybe I coulda got the engine spinning again by popping the clutch at this speed, but truth be told, I don't know what gear I was in...and it was dark.

On the other hand, having practiced panic stopping A LOT, I was not completely panicked, and even in the dark, I was able to come to a complete stop without undue drama.

I'm not lucky, not particularly good...but I do try to get better. Tonight I learned that hitting the start switch turns off the headlight...

[emt250]

Glad you didnt get hurt or anything. Thanks for sharing, good tip to remember in the future = )

[minuslars]

Disengaging the clutch should be an automatic response in a "real" emergency stop, as much as applying the correct braking pressure and shifting into first gear. You need to keep the bike engine running and ready. There is a probability that you may have to get up and go right away in the event of an emergency stop, such as if you start hearing screeching tires behind you....

Glad to hear you learned something But you can simulate most things at low speeds before you try them at high speeds. It's much safer if you're not totally familiar with the operation of the your bike.

[talldrink]

Originally Posted by minuslars

Disengaging the clutch should be an automatic response in a "real" emergency stop, as much as applying the correct braking pressure and shifting into first gear.

+1

[adouglas]

If you can reflexively grab the front brake you can (and should) reflexively grab the clutch.

To be honest I don't think intentionally laying off the clutch is "real world" at all.

In a manual transmission car, a panic stop involves stomping on both the brake and the clutch at the same time. It's not something you have to think through.

Same with a bike, no?

Also... Actually hauling it down from speed doesn't happen instantaneously. Assuming you don't grab the clutch reflexively, there is time while you're applying the brakes and the bike is decelerating to grab the clutch and prevent a stall. If your brain is still engaged at all you should have the presence of mind to do it because the stall won't happen until you're already moving slowly and the panic moment has passed.

[Flashmonkey]

+1 to what was already said...in an emergency its pull everything in, and gear all the way down. I also think its kinda important to be able to stay calm in these types of situations.

I've run into a few instances where the bike has stalled on me, mid down shift, while moving (extremely cold weather). Staying calm and collected helps get that sucker started up again

[adouglas]

Originally Posted by Flashmonkey

+1 to what was already said...in an emergency its pull everything in, and gear all the way down.

I take minor exception to this.

Dropping it down into first or even second can be dangerous because both are so low that if you dump the clutch you upset the bike pretty severely.

I'd click down two or three notches in a typical situation, but not all the way to first.

[backinthesaddleagain]

MSF instructor during panic stop would deduct if you didn't go all the way down to first. However we were only in third when panic stopping. I think gear to drop down to depends on situation. Dumping all your gears down to 1st might cause lockup. What if you have to almost stop to avoid something then accelerate away to avoid another thing. Proper gear would depend on situation.

[kkim]

Jerry... did you take a MSF course? If so, shifting down to first during a panic stop is something they should have taught you during that course.

[Flashmonkey]

Originally Posted by adouglas

I take minor exception to this.

Dropping it down into first or even second can be dangerous because both are so low that if you dump the clutch you upset the bike pretty severely.

I'd click down two or three notches in a typical situation, but not all the way to first.

Agreed...and this has actually come up in my own experience on the roads where I think I need to emergency brake...pull everything in...click all the way down...and it turned out to be nothing. But those situations were caused by my failure to differentiate between what seemed to be an emergency stop and what actually was an emergency stop. I'm getting better at recognizing the difference, but typically during an "aggressive" stop, I do as you mentioned above, and only downshift 1 or 2 clicks as required.

This scenario of a "false emergency stop" is more than likely to happen to everybody, and I think the proper way of dealing with it is to learn how to either:

a) shift up calmly to 2nd gear before releasing the clutch

b) learn to rev match appropriately so that when u release the clutch in first, there is no jump

c) (this is my preferred method) manipulate the clutch and throttle in a way so that you release the clutch gradually, while applying the right amount of throttle to smooth out the transition.

I've tried all three out and option C works the best for me, on a more consistent basis haha. Either way, maintaining a cool head is the key in all this. Oh...and the clutch is your friend for life...never dump it!

[Anthony_marr]

Originally Posted by Jerry

Maybe I coulda got the engine spinning again by popping the clutch at this speed, but truth be told, I don't know what gear I was in...and it was dark.

In that situation, that would be what I would do - not pop the clutch, but slip it at friction point enough to get the engine rotating at a few hundred rpm, regardless of what gear you happened to be in. Your on/off switch would still be on, and the bike should restart. No touching of the starter button required. The whole procedure to get the bike restarted this way from when it stalled could be as brief as 1 second, and maybe that's all the time you'd have.

[Anthony_marr]

Originally Posted by adouglas

If you can reflexively grab the front brake you can (and should) reflexively grab the clutch.

To be honest I don't think intentionally laying off the clutch is "real world" at all.

In a manual transmission car, a panic stop involves stomping on both the brake and the clutch at the same time. It's not something you have to think through.

Same with a bike, no?

Also... Actually hauling it down from speed doesn't happen instantaneously. Assuming you don't grab the clutch reflexively, there is time while you're applying the brakes and the bike is decelerating to grab the clutch and prevent a stall. If your brain is still engaged at all you should have the presence of mind to do it because the stall won't happen until you're already moving slowly and the panic moment has passed.

Here is real world situation from Talonne (A thread for the n00bs) in which the clutch was not disengaged, so I guess it does happen:

"I did lay the bike down once and was sooo disappointed. However, the Shogun frame sliders did their job and all I have is a tiny scuff on the tail part of the fairing to show for it. I was following my boyfriend into a gravelly/rocky alleyway and he slowed down suddenly. I panicked and braked without having the clutch in and stalled. It was tilted and I was trying my hardest to right it again, but I'm just too wimpy. Laid it down gently. Stupid stupid move not pulling in the clutch, but hey... We'll learn from our mistakes, right?"

[Jerry]

Thanks for the comments (and concerns)

The main idea of the post was that if you ever do stall, moving, and you push that button, your headlight will go out. And stay out if the engine doesn't catch first turn.

It was a total surprise to me


Easing the clutch would have been better.

This was a little variation on something I've been doing once a week, 6-8 months a year, for five years, in the same place, on two different bikes...Practicing Panic Stops...so for me it was an "experience." But it was a total surprise...

Just sayin' "Stay off the starter button at night, if you're moving..."

and practice panic stops....

[adouglas]

Originally Posted by Anthony_marr

Here is real world situation from Talonne (A thread for the n00bs) in which the clutch was not disengaged, so I guess it does happen:

Key here is that it was a noob mistake.

Why practice a noob mistake?

Practice what you SHOULD do, right?

Practice panic stopping while grabbing the clutch so you avoid the exact situation that Talonne experienced!

In a high-stress situation you're going to fall back on what you've practiced. If you practice wrong, you'll react wrong.

[rockNroll]

Originally Posted by adouglas

In a high-stress situation you're going to fall back on what you've practiced. If you practice wrong, you'll react wrong.

If you practice it properly and get used to it, you'll do it that way when it's all about reflexes. You won't have to think about it, you'll just do it.

[LazinCajun]

As a new rider, I've been trying to develop good habits, so I've been spending LOTS of time in parking lots etc. I practiced braking gradually etc. to the point where it was natural.... until the guy nearly ran me in to the curb with his trailer, and I grabbed a handful and a half of front brake (enough to make the front tire squeal almost instantly, but I backed off properly!).

I'm now thinking it's necessary to practice dealing with those panicky/fearful/instinctual reactions in addition to gradually applying brakes, but I'm not sure how to simulate those situations safely. Any suggestions?

[Anthony_marr]

Originally Posted by rockNroll

If you practice it properly and get used to it, you'll do it that way when it's all about reflexes. You won't have to think about it, you'll just do it.

Drivers of manual-shift cars may have an advantage in this, because they habitually disengage the clutch during heavy braking (at least I do). Noobs who drive automatic-shift cars may not have this reflex when riding a bike. Just a thought. I may be wrong.

[Flashmonkey]

^^^I think you're right, Anthony, as I have that habit as well. The mechanics are somewhat "reversed", but the mental aspect of that habit is already formed. Minute clutch control also seems to come easier as a result of my experiences in the car. Yay stick!!

[adouglas]

Originally Posted by Anthony_marr

Drivers of manual-shift cars may have an advantage in this, because they habitually disengage the clutch during heavy braking (at least I do). Noobs who drive automatic-shift cars may not have this reflex when riding a bike. Just a thought. I may be wrong.

Agreed, but if you ride a bike with a manual transmission then it is incumbent upon you to learn how to operate the machine properly. Just being able to ride it does not mean you are operating it properly.

(Pet peeve: People who buy ginormous SUVs and never learn how to handle them in parking lots. We've all seen the absurd parking jobs and the endless ham-handed 27-point K-turn maneuvers these people pull.)

Experience is of course the major factor, but so is taking an active role and practicing. Kudos to the OP and others in this thread who are actually taking the time to do this.

[OldGuy]

+1 on all that has been said.

While my MC experience is short my manual transmission and road bike experience is long and I really never had to think about it on the MC after the first demonstration and test run at the MSF course. If I had to write my sequence down for a "quick"/emergency stop down it would be:

1. Recognize need
2. Roll off gas
3. Front brake and rear brake modulate as necessary, disengage clutch
4. Start tapping transmission down.

I've never put a stop watch on it but I'd say you had better be executing Step 1 through 3 in < a second and downshifting right after that.

[karlosdajackal]

Originally Posted by Anthony_marr

Drivers of manual-shift cars may have an advantage in this, because they habitually disengage the clutch during heavy braking (at least I do). Noobs who drive automatic-shift cars may not have this reflex when riding a bike. Just a thought. I may be wrong.

Having done an emergency stop in a manual car with the clutch pedal on the floor and having done one with the clutch not used until then engine was below 1.5k, I'm sticking with leaving the clutch until the last minute. (no abs on the car in question). The clutch down stop resulted in a front wheel lockup and a longer than ideal stopping distance. The engine braking assisted stop was much smoother and more controlled with no lockup.

It really depends how you drive though, if you potter about at really low revs, engine braking isn't gonna help much, in fact the engine could work against you, if your mid way up the revs then that engine braking is a huge help. I think on the ninja once you get below 3.5k you really want the clutch pulled in. If your higher than that and let off the gas you can feel the bike slowing down quite hard, so why not use that decelerating power. Its effectively braking the rear wheel for you and its not going to lock unless your almost completely at a stop so you can concentrate on that front brake.

Also if you happen to be turning even a little to avoid something you don't want the clutch pulled in. Try going around a turn in a manual car and dipping the clutch, you will find the handling is very different with no drive-train connected, and not in a good way.

[Anthony_marr]

Originally Posted by karlosdajackal

Having done an emergency stop in a manual car with the clutch pedal on the floor and having done one with the clutch not used until then engine was below 1.5k, I'm sticking with leaving the clutch until the last minute. (no abs on the car in question). The clutch down stop resulted in a front wheel lockup and a longer than ideal stopping distance. The engine braking assisted stop was much smoother and more controlled with no lockup.

It really depends how you drive though, if you potter about at really low revs, engine braking isn't gonna help much, in fact the engine could work against you, if your mid way up the revs then that engine braking is a huge help. I think on the ninja once you get below 3.5k you really want the clutch pulled in. If your higher than that and let off the gas you can feel the bike slowing down quite hard, so why not use that decelerating power. Its effectively braking the rear wheel for you and its not going to lock unless your almost completely at a stop so you can concentrate on that front brake.

Also if you happen to be turning even a little to avoid something you don't want the clutch pulled in. Try going around a turn in a manual car and dipping the clutch, you will find the handling is very different with no drive-train connected, and not in a good way.

Agreed, as long what we are talking about is orderly slowing down and stopping. Engine braking is a big part of riding.

Case in point, however, is panic braking, in which case disengaging the clutch will at least prevent the engine from stalling, but will also allow you meanwhile to downshift in preparation for powering off from a potential threat from behind.

[rockNroll]

Originally Posted by karlosdajackal

The engine braking assisted stop was much smoother and more controlled with no lockup.

Practice. If you're using any engine braking your stopping distance will be greater than if you use only your brakes... engine braking wastes time and distance when your objective is to get your bike or car stopped or slowed as quickly as possible.

[karlosdajackal]

Originally Posted by rockNroll

Practice. If you're using any engine braking your stopping distance will be greater than if you use only your brakes... engine braking wastes time and distance when your objective is to get your bike or car stopped or slowed as quickly as possible.

Incorrect the engine is helping you slow down when you start braking above its idle speed. Nobody said don't use the brakes, what we said was use the brakes and the engine, both provide decelerating energy. If you watch some motorsport that still uses manual transmissions you will see that they don't pull the clutch while they are braking until the last possible moment when they do all the gearchanges quickly. According to you Ninja manual you should hang on till 5k before you downshift each gear. So in an emergency pull the clutch when you get below 5k.

Check out the august 2009 issue of Bike magazine, they talk to Valentino Rossi about how he takes coppice (great bend on donnigton park). Some random quotes from that article from the great man himself.

• "When you brake without shifting down is more difficult because you don't have the help from the engine"
• "i use the clutch to change down because is more smooth, the bike stay more stable, just two fingers to disengage the clutch just a little bit"
• "I use 95% front brake"
• "so now the rear brake is just to help stop the bike, because five per cent is better than nothing"

Sorry but Rossi is the GOAT (greatest of all time) and if we put him and anyone from this forum on a pair of ninjettes on a track I'd bet he could out-brake all of you. I would love to see people try

Now racing is one thing and an emergency on the street is another, but the goal is the same, get the thing stopped as quickly and safely as possible. If a kid jumps out in front of me, i really don't care if I stall it, my priority is to just stop. Better to have a me and that kid ok and the bike stalled, than a collision..... but hey the engine is still running! I guess the next biker to arrive at the scene of the accident will get a chance to use the killswitch for one

above 5k that engine is helping you slow down
below 5k and above idle it makes no odds either way
at or below idle, the engine is working against you until it stalls

[rockNroll]

Originally Posted by karlosdajackal

Incorrect the engine is helping you slow down when you start braking above its idle speed. Nobody said don't use the brakes, what we said was use the brakes and the engine, both provide decelerating energy. If you watch some motorsport that still uses manual transmissions you will see that they don't pull the clutch while they are braking until the last possible moment when they do all the gearchanges quickly. According to you Ninja manual you should hang on till 5k before you downshift each gear. So in an emergency pull the clutch when you get below 5k.

Check out the august 2009 issue of Bike magazine, they talk to Valentino Rossi about how he takes coppice (great bend on donnigton park). Some random quotes from that article from the great man himself.

• "When you brake without shifting down is more difficult because you don't have the help from the engine"
• "i use the clutch to change down because is more smooth, the bike stay more stable, just two fingers to disengage the clutch just a little bit"
• "I use 95% front brake"
• "so now the rear brake is just to help stop the bike, because five per cent is better than nothing"

Sorry but Rossi is the GOAT (greatest of all time) and if we put him and anyone from this forum on a pair of ninjettes on a track I'd bet he could out-brake all of you. I would love to see people try

Now racing is one thing and an emergency on the street is another, but the goal is the same, get the thing stopped as quickly and safely as possible. If a kid jumps out in front of me, i really don't care if I stall it, my priority is to just stop. Better to have a me and that kid ok and the bike stalled, than a collision..... but hey the engine is still running! I guess the next biker to arrive at the scene of the accident will get a chance to use the killswitch for one

above 5k that engine is helping you slow down
below 5k and above idle it makes no odds either way
at or below idle, the engine is working against you until it stalls

Nope, you're wrong, and Rossi's goal isn't the same.. he's doing more than just trying to stop or slow his bike as quickly as possible, much more.

[OldGuy]

Oh boy this is going to be good. Might even out do "My mom doesn't want be to get a bike".

Pull up a chair and pop a bottle of your favorite.

Now just for giggles I want all of you "the engine doesn't help to try this little test.

1. Find a nice open road where you won't interfere with anyone else.
2. Go to any speed in say fourth or fifth gear.
3. Roll off on the throttle, leave the clutch engaged and roll to a stop with out using the brakes. You don't even have to down shift. Only pull the clutch in to prevent stalling.
4. Repeat except pull in the clutch and wave as you go past the stopping point of engine braking.

[rockNroll]

Originally Posted by OldGuy

Oh boy this is going to be good. Might even out do "My mom doesn't want be to get a bike".

Pull up a chair and pop a bottle of your favorite.

Now just for giggles I want all of you "the engine doesn't help to try this little test.

1. Find a nice open road where you won't interfere with anyone else.
2. Go to any speed in say fourth or fifth gear.
3. Roll off on the throttle, leave the clutch engaged and roll to a stop with out using the brakes. You don't even have to down shift. Only pull the clutch in to prevent stalling.
4. Repeat except pull in the clutch and wave as you go past the stopping point of engine braking.

i didnt say the engine doesnt help, sure engine braking will slow your bike.. we all use it. I'm saying that if you need to stop as quick as possible, you don't want to wait for engine braking. Maximum braking will stop you faster than trying to brake and use engine braking. You're taking it wrong.

[noche_caliente]

Dance monkeys, Dance!!!! Come on, can't you see that he posted this thread just to stir us up? He's very good at this sort of thing.

[OldGuy]

Originally Posted by rockNroll

i didnt say the engine doesnt help, sure engine braking will slow your bike.. we all use it. I'm saying that if you need to stop as quick as possible, you don't want to wait for engine braking. Maximum braking will stop you faster than trying to brake and use engine braking. You're taking it wrong.

OK help me understand why you can not use maximum front/rear brake application AND engine braking at the same time?

[Alex]

Because they aren't complementary. Engine braking provides a small amount of deceleration. Not zero. But not a whole lot either. If you're just coasting to a stop, sure, using engine braking exclusively can be kinda fun and can make for a smoother ride.

But this thread isn't talking about where engine braking can be useful, it's talking about panic stops. And any rear brake usage at all is going to be significantly more powerful than any force that engine braking can provide. Rear braking + engine braking = same max force of rear braking anyway. They are not additive. And any front brake usage is going to dwarf the power of any rear brake usage anyway. Leaving the rear in gear, or not, really doesn't matter in the whole scheme of things in terms of shortening stopping distances. Pull in the clutch, don't pull in the clutch, it won't make much difference. But with the clutch pulled, at least if you do come to the point where you're approaching lockup, you don't have to worry about the motor stalling and refiring while you're concentrating 100% on stopping alone.

[OldGuy]

Originally Posted by Alex

If you're just coasting to a stop, sure, using engine braking exclusively can be kinda fun and can make for a smoother ride.

Which is what i usually do and has just carried over into my "panic" stops.

All that said however - I bow the the Master.

[hybridxx]

During my MSF course. First think our instructor told us was to keep fingers over the clutch..so when someone panics they don't give the bike full gas. sure enough hour later a lady panics, give the bike all the gas u can give it..clutch isnt held down..goes straight for the wall and broke both her legs =/.

[Jerry]

Originally Posted by noche_caliente

Dance monkeys, Dance!!!! Come on, can't you see that he posted this thread just to stir us up? He's very good at this sort of thing.

If you mean me, no I didn't, but yes, I guess I am. Regardless, stirring people up wasn't my point at all, and frankly I'm a bit surprised you took it that way. (If you meant someone else, never mind that part.)

I posted the thread, as I stated, mostly to inform people that pushing the starter will kill your lights, and that could be dangerous, if moving, at night. It seemed pretty important to me at the time, like it could be helpful.

If all the discussion prompts more people to actually spend some time on practicing this, I am pleased. I believe it to be the single most important thing I practice, and I really do practice it a lot, really, weekly, for years.

Was my example the best way to panic stop? Surely not. Is that the way I've done it many, many times? No.

If I gave the impression that what I did was my recommended way, it isn't.

Is it possible that some one else might find themselves costing along in the dark with the engine stalled, and the clutch pulled in? I think so. Anyway, if that person remembers this, they may save themselves a surprise, that's all.

And yeah, Practice those Panic Stops.

[Jerry]

Originally Posted by LazinCajun

I'm now thinking it's necessary to practice dealing with those panicky/fearful/instinctual reactions in addition to gradually applying brakes, but I'm not sure how to simulate those situations safely. Any suggestions?

I would suggest, you read Proficient Motorcycling. I don't have it handy but as I recall Hough's method...

Start slowly, no more than 15 mph
Come to a COMPLETE STOP, FEET DOWN, as quickly as you are comfortable.
Did you stall? Work on that.
Did you lock up a wheel? Work on that.
Did the handlebars push you back up a little more than you expected? Work on that
Repeat until you feel you have it down pat.

Increase speed to 20-25
Come to a COMPLETE STOP, FEET DOWN, as quickly as you are comfortable.
Did you stall? Work on that.
Did you lock up a wheel? Work on that.
Did the handlebars push you back up a little more than you expected? Work on that
Repeat until you feel you have it down pat.

Staying well within your comfort zone, increase your speed a bit at a time, until you feel you have it down pat...

I still feel just a little disoriented after every "Panic Stop." I'm working on that.

Then keep on practicing, to the end of your days, to stay sharp.

Eventually, you start to get a sense of your braking distance at different speeds, and this will begin to take some of the "Panic" out of the "Stop"

[HKr1]

Originally Posted by Jerry

As I was hauling 'er down from about 45mph, without pulling the clutch (trying to go 'real world'...I mean, will I really think about pulling the clutch in a 'real' emergency?) I noticed the headlight dim, and kinda heard the engine stall....so yeah I pulled in the clutch...

But the engine was already stalled.....I let off the brakes, kept the clutch pulled in, and coasted along at maybe 10-15mph...and pushed in the starter button....well, the bike didn't start on the first try, and WHOA...the headlight stayed off! Darkness! Still moving! CRAP!!

Why didnt you just let the clutch back out instead of pushing the starter button???

[Flashmonkey]

Originally Posted by noche_caliente

Dance monkeys, Dance!!!!

Hey....who are you calling a monkey! Oh wait a minute.....

[adouglas]

Originally Posted by Jerry

I would suggest, you read Proficient Motorcycling. I don't have it handy but as I recall Hough's method...

...

Come to a COMPLETE STOP, FEET DOWN, as quickly as you are comfortable.
Did you stall? Work on that.

To come to a complete stop with your feet down and not stall you must pull in the clutch.

What Hough obviously means by "work on that" is that you really should practice grabbing the clutch when stopping.

So you were intentionally not doing so because..... ???

Lesson learned about the light going out in the dark, but this whole thing was just too avoidable.

[adouglas]

Originally Posted by Flashmonkey

Hey....who are you calling a monkey! Oh wait a minute.....

Ook.

[DarkNinja52]

good talk

[Jerry]

Originally Posted by adouglas

To come to a complete stop with your feet down and not stall you must pull in the clutch.

True, that.

Originally Posted by adouglas

What Hough obviously means by "work on that" is that you really should practice grabbing the clutch when stopping.

Actually, that was me paraphrasing, but you're right, and normally I do...

Further, while I don't mind the pointer I will point out that grabbing the clutch at 45, while braking hard, will increase the chances of locking up the back wheel, and that carries dangers of it's own. I have found it better to brake hard, and let off the back brake when I grab the clutch.

Originally Posted by adouglas

So you were intentionally not doing so because..... ???

Regular panic stops are becoming routine for me, not challenging. I may be developing habits that don't apply to all situations...so I change it up a little...get a different perspective..."when exactly does the engine stall? and then what will I do..." Well, pushing the start button isn't option #1 folks.

Originally Posted by adouglas

Lesson learned about the light going out in the dark, but this whole thing was just too avoidable.

That was kinda my idea, help others avoid this. I've appreciated what you have to say.