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Old July 16th, 2018, 04:00 PM   #1
DannoXYZ
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MOTM - Nov '17
Ninja 250R vs. 300 vs. 400 at Thunderhill East

Did a quick comparison on these three bikes in stock form as provided by Feel Like A Pro track-bike rentals. Same tyres were used on all bikes. I selected same track, Thunderhill East (3-mile) and picked same rider in races in same month, 1-year apart.:

Ninja 250R = 2:30-2:33
Ninja 300 = 2:23-2:26
Ninja 400 = 2:13-2:18

Apparently 400 is significantly faster than 300 is over 250R. However, these times spanned 3-years, so I suspect lot of difference is also due to rider improving their skill as well.

Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; July 18th, 2018 at 04:26 PM. Reason: corrected 400 times
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Old July 16th, 2018, 06:49 PM   #2
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The 400 has a notable torque increase down low compared to the 300. It's not just N300 * 4/3. Somewhere around 7K it holds an approx 55% power advantage. Around 7700 it eclipses the N300's peak power.
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Old July 16th, 2018, 07:28 PM   #3
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Innnnteresting.... Thanks for that!
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Old July 16th, 2018, 07:56 PM   #4
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Great info!
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Old July 17th, 2018, 08:45 AM   #5
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Unless it was same rider and same tires on the same day I wouldn't put much value in that data.
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Old July 17th, 2018, 09:20 AM   #6
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All it says is with same rider, each later bike is faster than previous. Note wide variations in times of each bike. This is due to different weather conditions, tyres, rider’s performance, phase of moon, etc. All variables that affect lap-times. Plot all times and compare peak of bell curve. I bet for most people, they would be faster than 250R on 300 and faster yet on 400.
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Old July 17th, 2018, 01:21 PM   #7
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What is the "usual" lap time around THill on a small bike? At least from the AFM race results, it seems like the 300 is capable of running a 2:04-2:12 for racers (from latest AFM results there).

I would agree that the 400 should be a bit faster than the 300, but I would expect it to be about 3 seconds or so for the same rider on the same day.
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Old July 17th, 2018, 01:25 PM   #8
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Let me put it another way:
It is obvious that the 300 has the potential to be faster than the 250 and the 400 to be faster than the 300.
The data above is useless in determining how they really compare. It's worse than useless because it is misleading.
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Old July 17th, 2018, 07:17 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgold View Post
Let me put it another way:
It is obvious that the 300 has the potential to be faster than the 250 and the 400 to be faster than the 300..
The data above is useless in determining how they really compare. It's worse than useless because it is misleading.
You made two mistakes:

1. Jumping to conclusions and assumed that past-performance data is being used as predictor of future results. Note that data presented is only past historical data. It's was recorded by AMB/MyLaps transponders on X-date ridden by Y-rider in Z-race. And Z2 race same month one year later on 300 and Z3 race 2 years later on 400. Kaput, done! It's actual facts in reality and nothing can change that.

It's like me saying:
Quote:
On 12 Thursday 2018, sun rose at 5:57am in San Francisco.
On 13 Friday 2018, sun rose at 5:58am in San Franciso.
On 14 Saturday 2018, sun rose at 5;59am in San Francisco.
It's done! Actual factual numbers recording events in reality on certain dates that can never ever change. However, it does NOT say anything about sunrise times in 3-months or 5-years. YOU are one that jumped to conclusion that I was using that data to predict anything. Or if I had said:
Quote:
On Thursday, Mary had burger & fries for dinner.
On Friday, Mary had pizza for dinner.
On Saturday, Mary had lamb for dinner.
You inferred that I'm trying to say something about Mary's dinner next week. Nope, I just reported what she had for dinner in past.


2. Assuming that I made same mistake by inferring that data meant something else. Note I did not say you or anyone else will be getting those times or those spreads between models.

All I presented was actual times achieved at actual track used by same rider year after year. That's all, anything extra, you brought into this.
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Old July 17th, 2018, 07:48 PM   #10
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MOTM - Nov '15
Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
You made two mistakes:

1. Jumping to conclusions and assumed that past-performance data is being used as predictor of future results. Note that data presented is only past historical data. It's was recorded by AMB/MyLaps transponders on X-date ridden by Y-rider in Z-race. And Z2 race same month one year later on 300 and Z3 race 2 years later on 400. Kaput, done! It's actual facts in reality and nothing can change that.

It's like me saying:


It's done! Actual factual numbers recording events in reality on certain dates that can never ever change. However, it does NOT say anything about sunrise times in 3-months or 5-years. YOU are one that jumped to conclusion that I was using that data to predict anything. Or if I had said:


You inferred that I'm trying to say something about Mary's dinner next week. Nope, I just reported what she had for dinner in past.


2. Assuming that I made same mistake by inferring that data meant something else. Note I did not say you or anyone else will be getting those times or those spreads between models.

All I presented was actual times achieved at actual track used by same rider year after year. That's all, anything extra, you brought into this.

Let me make it simpler for you: It's worthless information.
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Old July 17th, 2018, 07:51 PM   #11
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MOTM - Nov '17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mechanikrazy View Post
What is the "usual" lap time around THill on a small bike? At least from the AFM race results, it seems like the 300 is capable of running a 2:04-2:12 for racers (from latest AFM results there).

I would agree that the 400 should be a bit faster than the 300, but I would expect it to be about 3 seconds or so for the same rider on the same day.
Well, tyre selections alone can be 2-3s on exact same bike, on same day, with same rider. Picking exact same model bike between different riders or classes is unpredictable because we don't know kinds of legal or cheater mods they've done. Different riders on different model bikes? Way more variables that we can't even pinpoint. So there's wide variations possible there.

For example, Dave Moss used to dominate 250-Superbike, getting 2:02 times on his CBR250RR. Guy's a monster! Doing all his laps within 1/4-sec of each other.



But we don't know what kind of mods he's done because rules only require frame & engine match, that's it. Or Marc Edwards, MotoAmerica hotshot, has gotten 2:01 times on R3, which should be stock in order to drop down into 250-Superbike. But again, we don't know exactly how "stock" his bike was for those races. His R3 is now slower since it has to conform to 300WSS rules.

That's why I went with only stock bikes provided by Feel Like A Pro, to rule out all mods. They also use same Pirelli Supercorsa/Rosso-II tyres on all their bikes, further equalizing variables. Finally I picked same rider doing races in same month year after year. This rider is only interested in drive-up-and-race scenarios, leaving all maintenance to FLAP. So there's no monkeying with physical aspects of bike that we don't know about. Since FLAP rents bikes to competing racers, they do darn good job of making sure all their bikes are very equal in stock performance.
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Old July 17th, 2018, 07:53 PM   #12
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MOTM - Nov '17
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgold View Post
Let me make it simpler for you: It's worthless information.
Again, you're jumping to conclusions and assuming that everyone else makes same inferences as you. It's obvious from other's posting that it's not worthless to them. Some people get value out of knowning facts like when sun came up or what Mary had for dinner. Or what kind of times same rider got on three different bikes.


If you don't like it or find it worthless, that's fine, but that doesn't change facts or that those things did happen. You can't change history.

In end, all that matters is what stopwatch says. No arguing around fact that someone beat you by 1.3421 seconds.
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Old July 17th, 2018, 09:32 PM   #13
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sorry tgold, it's not worthless. this is very interesting.
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Old July 18th, 2018, 04:46 AM   #14
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OK then, Here's a fact: I beat a Formula 450 bike, an Aprilia SXV450, an FZR400, and a TZ250 in the last race I was in on my 300 Ninja, yet I got beat by a guy on an R3. That says exactly zero about the potential of any those bikes.

I deal with measurements, data, and "facts" every day and my job is to look at that information evaluate how it was obtained and decide how relevant it is so that I can make decisions based on it.

You are the one making inferences that the 400 Ninja is faster than the 300 which is faster than the 250. Well no s**t!
The data you are using is full of known and unknown variables that influence the laptimes. It's worthless.
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Old July 18th, 2018, 08:27 AM   #15
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MOTM - Nov '17
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgold View Post
OK then, Here's a fact: I beat a Formula 450 bike, an Aprilia SXV450, an FZR400, and a TZ250 in the last race I was in on my 300 Ninja, yet I got beat by a guy on an R3. That says exactly zero about the potential of any those bikes.
What if YOU were riding the Formula 450 bike, Aprilia SXV450, FZR400, TZ250 and R3 yourself?
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Old July 18th, 2018, 09:37 AM   #16
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MOTM - Nov '17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mechanikrazy View Post
I would agree that the 400 should be a bit faster than the 300, but I would expect it to be about 3 seconds or so for the same rider on the same day.
Ah... that's sticky point. I'm going to look for someone with both 300 and 400. Maybe FLAP will let me ride them alternately for one rental fee...
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Old July 19th, 2018, 12:27 PM   #17
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Yup the bigger the number the more vroom sometimes
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