Getting the Ninja going again !

[DannoXYZ]

But you're shimming needles and opening up gap and making mixtures richer than 95 can deliver without shims.

[Bob KellyIII]

That's very true ! if the truth were known it is probably the equivalent of 98's right now because of the shims ! but it is doing it lower on the taper of the needle outside of the "Flat-spot" if my guess is right. .....
I won't know how good the burn is till I run it and get a plug reading...which will be a while.
.......
Bob......

[Bob KellyIII]

today I started putting the fairings back on the bike and glued the tab I broke off back on on the other fairing... I had to use JB weld because I had no other epoxy ...it may hold, and it may not, but I will try it !
....getting the bike to look like a bike again is encouraging
it's 90 degrees outside today.... perfect riding weather for me....lol.
....
Bob......

[Triple Jim]

Originally Posted by Bob KellyIII

I had to use JB weld because I had no other epoxy ...it may hold, and it may not, but I will try it !

Watch this video. Repairing ABS is best done this way, and all it takes is some scrap ABS and some acetone. I used a scrap of ABS schedule 40 pipe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4LoMJGfhzg

[Bob KellyIII]

Thanks Jim ! I like that repair because you can build up the thickness which the Ninja fairings need in my opinion.
However I don't have any Acetone on hand.... that would work really good for this type of thing though so I may have to get some to have it on hand
... ABS glue for water pipes is supposed to work very well too....I have some but it is very old I doubt it is any good anymore and I didn't even think about it
DUH !
.... I think what I did will hold for the fairing tab.... we'll see !
.... I should order myself some sheets of ABS and PVC plastic to have on hand
I was thinking of making some air scoops for the XR650L to mount down near the base of the cylinder to help add cooling a bit.
We'll see if it holds LOL.... it's already done and drying I'll mess with it tomorrow.
........
Bob.....

[Triple Jim]

Originally Posted by Bob KellyIII

... ABS glue for water pipes is supposed to work very well too.

It's probably the same stuff, but more expensive. With a gallon of acetone from the hardware store and a chunk of pipe, you have a lifetime supply of ABS cement. I recently fixed a motorhome holding tank that was cracked, and it worked really well. I added a layer daily for a week or so.

[Bob KellyIII]

yah I suspect it is as well.... they just add acetone to their powder and sell it for 3 times the amount.... typical !
Acetone dries extreamily fast I wouldn't think it takes a day between applications.... but if you have the time why not right ?
.... One thing I remember about Acetone is that it will desolve almost anything but wood..... just about any plastics ! so I bet they use it to thin most plastics that are out there....
I made the mistake and left a big wide puddy knife in a pan of Acetone when I was helping my Dad in his autobody shop one time.... the blade and a ring was all that was left of the puddy knife the next day.... it is extreamily volitile as well Dad carted home a 55 gallon barrel of used Acetone ,paint thinner and enamel reducer so we could start our brush piles on fire..... ...pour on a 5 gal bucket full on it but do NOT wait ....light it imediately ....
Dad and I came up with a very safe method of lighting it he would pour the Acetone and I would take a can of gasoline and start a trail at the brush pile and back about 25~40ft.... when he was clean he would yell hit it son ! and I'ed take the torch striker and hit the gasoline and back up a long way....
the gas would usually get to about 5 feet from the Acetone and then it would ignite the fumes and WOOM .... that usually burned even green wood
as we were clearing land at the ranch at that time and that stuff didn't want to burn at all.... a cupule hits with the Acetone did the trick though
....and you do not want to re light it with Acetone when there might be hot coals under the ash.....so we waited days between ignition !
.....
one time we didn't have any spare gasoline and dad wanted to start a brush pile I looked around and asked my sister if I could use her hair sprey and she looked suspiciously at me and said for what ? so I said to light the brush pile
she said I gott'a see this and followed me out I had my handy dandy flint and lighter fluid lighter in one hand and the hair sprey in the other... held the lighter about 18" away from the hair sprey and struck the lighter and then hit the hair sprey it shot a cone of flame about 8' ....Dad saw that and said ok get ready and then he splashed the Acetone on the brush pile and said Hit it son I did and it went KAWHOOMP and I picked myself off the ground laughing hysterically. he put alot on it that time ! .....some times I wonder how I survived my youth ! HAHAHAHAHA

[Triple Jim]

Originally Posted by Bob KellyIII

Acetone dries extreamily fast I wouldn't think it takes a day between applications.... but if you have the time why not right ?

The problem is that the acetone doesn't just stay in the glue, it also softens the ABS you're trying to repair. If you don't give it enough time to fully evaporate between coats, you can end up softening everything, and depending of what the item is, you could have a problem. You can tell if it's not fully dry if you stick your thumbnail in the surface and it leaves a mark. It's best to allow plenty of time for drying between coats. I think that was mentioned in the video, too.

[Bob KellyIII]

Well, I got the fairings back on, turn signals hooked up, front fender well on, and everything is buttoned down..... I think ! put the side covers on and then took it out of the shop..... fired it up and moved it to it's parking spot
seems to be running real good....hitting on both when it's cold and it takes throttle.... so I turned it off and took a break ! LOL
.....
Bob.....

[Bob KellyIII]

for the last week we have had storm after storm here.... not a whole lot of rain with it but not warm either ! I have a fire going in the pellet stove right now as we had a thunder shower earlier and it cooled everything off down into the low 60's
... and of course the little Ninja is sitting out in the rain.... but it's a bike it can handle it !
HAHAHAH
...
My fork seals should show up tomorrow so maybe if the weather behaves I can get started on putting in the new seals.
....
Bob........

[Bob KellyIII]

Well after getting the fairings on and all that I decided to do the seals in the front forks so the fairings had to come back off.... it is getting easier to put on and off the fairings so that is something !
....
I jacked up the front of the bike under the oil filter hitting on both sides of the center bolt where the cap mates with the engine so I wouldn't crush the cap down there.
once the weight was off the front and it was balanced on the 3 points, side stand rear wheel and sizzor jack, I could take off the front wheel to get the fender brace/fork brace out of there and out of the way.
then it was just a matter of un doing the pinch bolts on the tripple trees and slide out the forks..... I took loose the handle bars too but I don't really think that was necessary.
so I am doing one fork at a time and I pulled the bottom allen bolt and let the fork oil drain out all night and will get back to that this afternoon !
.....
I have a doctor appointment in about 2 hrs so I get to go and hurry up and wait for a while.... LOL
.... I haven't been back to the doctor for about a year and a half...maybe 2 years so I think I should go and at least complain about the pills I have quit taking.... now that I'm off the pills I feel much better anyway.... I think I'll tell him no more pills ! unless he has something for chronic fatigue syndrome
which they never do.... so it's a waste of time ....
....
later all !
Bob.......

[DannoXYZ]

heh, you have ADHD, get it checked out and confirmed.
Lots of good meds for it to help you focus and be more efficient.
Also helps with chronic fatigue syndrome!
Soccer mums in mini-vans abuse them all the time to go-go-go!!!

[Bob KellyIII]

now where's the fun in that Jac ? if they said I had ADHD there would be no excuse !
HAHAHAHAH..... and no I don't ! and yes I have been checked for it when I was in school
because I was flunking math.... Turns out I was flunking because I never did the stupid home work..... and I never did ! I gave them too much time as it was ! ...changed teachers and I got a B instead of an F ....no homework from him !....
I told the counselor I will not do home work ! she said well you have to I said NO, I DON'T..... You guys say I do is the only reason...and that is not a good enough reason for me.... I have things to do when I get home and home work is not one of them.
needless to say My Mom and Dad Hated me for that ! they got calls daily for a while
and finally My Dad asked Why do you give the kids so much homework anyway....
the problem was cured because I did my homework on my lunch break.... all the teachers were all smiles then but I told them I did not do it at home !...the teachers didn't care one bit.... and I got B's the rest of the year....the idiots thought they got me to cave in but I didn't I stood by my guns ! My Dad asked did you do your homework Son ? I said Yes Sir I sure did on my lunch brake.... he just shook his head and said you're a hard head you know that ! I said no it's the principal of the thing they take way too much of my time as it is...I have other things to do ! ....Dad gave me one of those looks and said Well if you get a failing grade again their be hell to pay ! ....
.... Man I haven't thought about that crap in years.....it was better left burried ! HAHAHAH I hated school !
....
Bob

[Bob KellyIII]

I think I may well better pull the side plate over the clutch on the XR650L....
the clutch is grabbing the more I ride it the worse it gets.... I think something is amiss with the clutch....
I went for a long ride today.... a tough one... it beat the snot out of me and machine!
I went to Bluff Lake way up the mountain..... so many Rocks I lost the spring off the side stand ! ... I had to tie it up with a rope to get home ! I couldn't put it back on out there, that is a strong spring !
....
here's a pic.
....
Bob.......

[DannoXYZ]

Originally Posted by Bob KellyIII

.... Man I haven't thought about that crap in years.....it was better left burried ! HAHAHAH I hated school !
....
Bob

Ahahahahh!!!

Yeah I hated school too! Just didn't have patience for it, always had better things to do. Would end up finding corner in back somewhere to read moto mags, or books from other classes. Practice wire-knotting, spinning nuts onto bolts one-handed under desk, etc. University was so much better with self-paced curriculum... Especially engineering classes with labs.

[Bob KellyIII]

yah College was alot better ! like you say the labs were great....
I was one history class away from my AA degree and said that's enough I can't aford all this playing around ! time to get serious about making some money !.... so I went to work as a small engine mechanic LOL.... I made more money at the gas station ! but the hours were better .... and I had a wife and Kid now so I had to do something ! it just as well be something I like ! so I started gathering better tools instead of the hand me downs I had..... and that is still going on..... more tools....we need more tools !
HAHAHAH
....
Bob.........

[Bob KellyIII]

Hummm.... today I got into the Ninja's front forks er one of them anyway....
but I can't get the bloody thing apart your supposed to pull out the inner tube to drive the seal out and after about 30 minutes of pounding on it and braking it free every time because it jams up at the very end I've got the seal about 1/16" from coming out....
I hate to admit it but I did start pounding on it before I had the keeper clip out...my bad
I should have noticed it but the clip was coated in black oil and I didn't notice it till after about 5 minutes of pounding on it.... I got the clip out and it moved alot several times and then vertually stopped coming out ! they have a special tool you clamp on the lowers to add weight but they don't tell you how your supposed to clamp the upper tube with out damageing it ! wrap it in rags and put the rags in the vice and pound a few times while it slowly slides out I guess..... but I almost got it out now ...i had to take a break.... I'm still sore from that ride yesterday and the beating I took getting to that lake. glad I did finally make it to the lake because I won't be back there...once was enough ..... and no fishies either !
I had a hell of a time getting the spring clip out of the top of the shock... but I finally got behind it with the cap pushed down about 1/8" and got the end out and then worked around it and got it out....
it should be as easy as replacing the seals but getting the silly inner tube out of the outer tube is a bear ! I may have to replace the bushings as well because of all the pounding.... I hope not I think I can freshen them up with some fine emery cloth
but right now their kind'a binding going in and out.... not good !
....
Bob.....

[Bob KellyIII]

well, I got'em apart and it's going back together fine....
I need to stop and go get fork oil.... #8 says the manual !
because there is no way to put in fork oil after the upper stop and clip are put in.... seems kind'a odd but what ever !
so before I put the top on I have to add fork oil.....
I suppose I could use ATF but I'm not going to risk that the new parts wouldn't desolve using that ! LOL
....
I didn't have any trouble getting the bottom bolt tight it snugged up and didn't turn inside on me like I thought it might...
....so one fork is done, all but the oil.... I'll do the other after I get the fork oil and get the 1st one all done and in the triple trees.
....
all in all it wasn't bad except getting the lower and upper tubes to seperate ...I bet I pounded on that thing about an hour total time ! and the lower bushing looked fine so I just put it all back together ! everything slid on the shaft like it was supposed to. so I think it's good to go.... the proof will be in the riding and see if the forks jam at the top when I hit a bump....
.....
holding the fork tube in the vice without maring it is easy with 2 pieces of 3/4" plywood on on each side to cover the jaws and you can hold it real tight too....
I thought about that but I didn't have to use that trick.... the things finally seperated with about 20 more whacks....
I cut a 24" piece of 2" PVC water pipe to drive in the new seal and that drove it in easy
I started using a screwdriver to drive it in but got worried that I might hurt the seal as it was getting real hard to move and I had a long way to go to get that clip in there so I got the PVC pipe and drove it in nice and straight.
....
Bob......

[Triple Jim]

I don't remember having to pound on anything when I did mine.

[Bob KellyIII]

when getting the upper and lower tubes to separate. you must slide them apart hard to drive the seal out of the bottom part..... the one I just did was extremally hard to get apart ! there was no visual damage to cause that I guess they drove in the seal with a 30 pound sledge hammer ! it was really in there .... the one I put in did not go in that hard...
it must have been a defective seal and they put it in anyway ... too big for the fork !
I have had bearing's go in like that but never a seal....you know when it's the bearing for it and it's 2 thow over the size of the hole when it should be 1 thow ? LOL
Kind'a common to have that happen actually.... switch brands and all bets are off on fitment ! ....one manufacturer's tolerances are not ALL manufacturers tolerances !
.... but the new one went in great... makes me wonder if the other one will have to be pounded on for an hour to get them apart or not ! I hope not !
....
Bob......

[DannoXYZ]

Odd, I seem to recall yanking upper fork-tubes about 5 times and it pulled out oil-seal from lower-fork tube fairly easily...

I made sure to oil outside of new seals before installing.

[Bob KellyIII]

I figured sense they made a special tool ...a weight that it might be hard but that was silly ! at most on other forks like that that didn't un screw the seal
it was 4 or 5 wacks.... but this wasn't that way at all.... might also be the reason it failed so early in life... only 5600 miles at last check they should not have failed this early !
.... No biggy I guess.... I'll just pour 12 oz of #8 fork oil in each and call it good enough ! LOL
....
Bob.....

[Triple Jim]

There is some information about fork oil level here:

https://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/How_do...Fork_oil_level

[Bob KellyIII]

Ugh ! thanks Jim..... as with everything about the Ninja it's not as simple as just throwing in 12 oz of oil ( what ever the weight may be) and your all set....
.....
I'm not set up for measuring millimeters.... I don't have anything that measures MM's
I have several calipers that I can switch to MM's but that is all ...
....
so getting a precise measurement of oil down inside a tube with a big long spring in it
is not going to be easy.... maybe my turkey baster with a hose on it will do the trick.
....
I think I'll start with 12 oz of 10wt oil ( manual calls for 8wt.) but I do not want a harsh ride..... and then measure each leg and see where the oil level is at.
.....
Bob......

[Triple Jim]

1 inch = 25.4 mm, so you can convert. Or you can buy an inexpensive metric ruler. It's not difficult science.

Oil level affecting the front suspension isn't unique to Ninja 250s. It defines the air space in the fork tubes, which affects the effective spring rate for any motorcycle with this type of front suspension.

For example, if your front end bottoms on very hard stops, you can add oil until that quits happening.

[Bob KellyIII]

thanks Jim that will help !
I am skeptical on the "Fork OIL" to begin with.... when early Triumphs simply used ATF which is a very THIN oil and sense those guys recommended thicker oil, for a stiffer ride, why couldn't you use 10W40 Valvoline motor oil or 20W50 ?
Oil is OIL it's not like it's a fantastically better grade or something ....it might be filtered a bit more but that would be all.... and lets face it it's not going to heat enough to cook motor oil when I ride it ! LOL
the reason I ask is simple, I have 10W40 and 20W50 in the shop already.
....
I remember putting straight 30W in forks one time but they would not compress at all..... the tire was the only give, the oil was too thick
but now we have multigrade oil that may well work just as good ...ya think ?
....
Bob.....

[DannoXYZ]

These bikes were originally configured for average Japanese rider, 60kg or so. Suspension ended up woefully undersprung for Americans!

When updating to new-gen 2008+, they did beef up rear shock which is now quite good. Front fork was is still too soft at 0.65kg/mm. I had to use 0.90kg/mm spring-rate for my weight on my track bike. Had lost some weight and went down to 0.80kg/mm fork-springs right before selling bike 2-yrs ago.

To match higher spring rate, thicker weight fork oil is used. And for heavier rider as well. You can also decrease air-pocket above oil-level to add some extra bottoming resistance at end of travel. I think stock oil-level is 140mm from fork top. Use screwdriver and drop it down fork to reach oil-level. Pull it out holding your finger on screwdriver where it lined up with fork top. Measure distance between finger and oil mark. Perhaps raise oil-level 20mm to 120mm=4-3/4"

[Bob KellyIII]

so in these forks the air space above the oil is the cushioning and not the diameter of the hole in the bottom for oil passage back and forth ? ..... air compresses, oil doesn't, so they restrict the movement or Dive of the front forks by the diameter of the hole that passes the oil...... so where does the Air pocket come into play ?
....
I have to admit the Ninja has always had a bad dive when hitting the brakes in a corner.... but I thought that was how it was supposed to work .... never had a crotch rocket before ! LOL...but seriously the front really went down when you hit the front brake
if it didn't bottom out it was real close to it ... probably because all the fork oil leaked out ages ago LOL ...
but it does turn the corner real good that way ! the front kind'a pulls you around.... but I have a feeling that shouldn't be that way now.....
....
the XR650L doesn't dive at all in a corner it'll drop a small amount when you hit the front brake hard but that is all.
the Ninja has never done that #1 the ninja is quite a bit heavier than the XR650L so I would expect some dive but now that I think about it.... it's excessive ! ....the Triumph also dives a tiny amount but I think that is just because she's getting old and broke in ! LOL
and probably hasn't had the fork oil changed in 30 years !
....
Bob.......






Bob.....

[DannoXYZ]

Air-space is similar to spring and gives static resistance to load.

- Add 35-lbs, fork compresses 1-inch.
- Add another 35-lbs, it compresses 1-inch.
- Near end of travel, air-space gets compressed and adds to spring-rate. Add another 35-lbs, it only compreses 0.75-inch.
- Add another 35-lbs, it compresses only 0.5-inch.

Air-gap functions as rising-rate spring near end of travel. Decrease that air-space and you get more increase in resistance to compression near end.

This is completely separate function from damping. Which is resistance to flow of oil through holes. This is 2nd-order function on top of static compression and it affects the velocity of the movement (integration function). Without damping, after you hit bump, fork uncompresses fully quickly and tosses you up, then comes crashing down again and up... and down.. like pogo stick! Damping absorbs energy from hitting bump so fork only bounces once. If it bounces too quickly and multiple times per bump, increase damping by making holes smaller or increase weight of oil. Your diving under braking can be fixed by increasing damping with thicker oil along with stiffer spring.

Common upgrade is to chop off some of spring and replace with something not compressible, like PVC spacer. Depending upon your weight, 4" is typically common amount to remove. This will increase spring-rate by +33%. Works by ratio of original length:

L1 * R1 = L2 * R2
16 * 0.65kg/mm = 12 * R2
R2 = (16*0.65)/12 = 0.87kg/mm

[Bob KellyIII]

ok KOOL ! thanks for that !
so lets see if I got this right.... thickness of the oil then is the rate of dampening
or the rate at which the forks DIVE and the slowness of recovery after a bump (no oil at all and you get pogo stick action)
Spring stiffness is a static resistance to compression, along side of that of the air volume
.....Right ?

Bob......

[DannoXYZ]

Yes, you got it!

[Bob KellyIII]

well, I got one fork done and am in the process of doing the other one now....
it's seal was hard to get out but not as hard as the other one...
.... it's over 100 degrees out there right now !
I'm putting in ATF because I cannot find fork oil anywhere.... I think it will be too thin
but I can always change it later I guess....i'ed probably be better off putting in 10W40 valvoline oil in them rather than the ATF.
I bounced on the completed one quite a bit and I admit it goes down fairly fast....
it's hard to guestimate what it should feel like.... but I think it should be harder than that !

..
.....
Bob........

[DannoXYZ]

Just order proper oil, and wait 2-days. Saves you tonne of time having to tear it all apart over & over:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000WK8XEI/

Meanwhile, drill and tap hole in bottom of fork so you can drain and replace oil without disassembling fork.

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=363235

[Bob KellyIII]

I like that idea about an external drain hole....that's a good idea !
( the link to the oil doesn't work.... but I can find it on Amazon thanks)
should I buy 10W ? book calls for 8W but that is kind'a soft
....
Bob........

[DannoXYZ]

How about this link? Maxima 55901 10WT

yes, 10w works.

Add 20mm more oil-height too (120mm air-space).

I used 15w with 40% stiffer springs. Then 12w with 25% stiffer springs.

[Bob KellyIII]

LOL that one doesn't work either.... LOL but that looks like the one I found too
LOL
ok I am used to doing Ounce's so do I fill the fork till it's 120MM from the top ?
....
Bob......

[Triple Jim]

Both links work properly for me.

[Bob KellyIII]

it's weird it acts like it's doing it loads a new tab and then just switches back.
....
I've noticed those keeper clips on the ends of the forks can be a real bitch to get off there
because you have to press the cap down to compress the spring a bit... 1/8" is enough
but that takes a hand... then you try to get UNDER the clip end with a tiny screwdriverand it wants to turn so it takes another hand to hold it... well that's 3 hands and I only have 2 so I came up with a cure.... I push the cap down about 1/4" and put a tiny screwdriver along the end of the clip straight up and down and the tip down between the cap and the tube wedging the cap in place and the clip end so it won't rotate and you hold that screwdriver while trying to get under the other end of the clip with another screwdriver or awl.... it takes several trys to get the end up but once you have the small screwdriver under one end you can work it around and pop the clip out of the groove and get the cap off and out ....I think a slight slant with a file, on the end "Gap" of the wire there would help in getting under the wire... as it's fairly strong wire and doesn't want to let you under it ! LOL
....
it finally cooled down enough last night so I went out and assembled the other fork
...
I put 12 oz of ATF in the fork and then put the cap back in there and it's clip....
I pressed my whole body weight ( 190 lbs) into pumping the fork many times and the action is smooth and I don't think there will be any "pogo stick action" as I could feel resistance on the rebound and the push down was progressively hard...feels like they should work...
....
Bob.....

[Triple Jim]

Originally Posted by Bob KellyIII

it's weird it acts like it's doing it loads a new tab and then just switches back.

It's probably a browser or add-on setting that's causing that.

[Bob KellyIII]

Well, google chrome just had a recent update here on my machine....
and I did fittle with the settings a bit but I don't THINK I screwed anything up...famous last words !
... I do follow links alot especially from this site ...saves alot of time and effort just finding stuff !....so I'll look into it and get my Kids help ! HA !
....
Bob.........