Better brakes for the Ninja 250

[rojoracing53]

Originally Posted by tubarney

You can install a new line without adding much air? Sorry to be a skeptic but that sounds like bull. Your gonna have to explain that one. My first question, what about the air in the line.

For me speedbleeders are still the best 15 bucks I have spent on the bike out of over 5000. When you bleed your brakes after every race they are invaluable.

So little faith in my awesomeness I see

I explained it I another thread but I'm not going to find now. Its something i stumbled onto will messing around and I won't lie I has a few extra steps that you normally wouldn't do. I think it beats the alternative of blowing through a full bottle of brake fluid to get all the air you normally force into all the galleys of the caliper. I'll tell you what when I install my new line ill have my buddy film it so you can see how it's done.

If you braking system is mechanically sound and you've properly bleed your brakes then you should need to bleed them nearly so often.

[tubarney]

Originally Posted by Zombiphone

I really don't get what you did so differently though. Maybe those speed bleeder screws really do work better at getting all the air out?

I would have to second that. When you bleed brakes conventionally air gets sucked in the threads of the nipple. Theres no way to stop this without pulling the stock nipple out and putting some sealant on the threads. Who knows what you would use because brake fluid will eat anything. Even if you use a mighty vac, air is still going to go in those threads. The pull in my rear brake has halved from factory to now. If you want ill even post a video showing you that there is no way your brakes are crisper then mine.

[tubarney]

Originally Posted by rojoracing53

So little faith in my awesomeness I see

I explained it I another thread but I'm not going to find now. Its something i stumbled onto will messing around and I won't lie I has a few extra steps that you normally wouldn't do. I think it beats the alternative of blowing through a full bottle of brake fluid to get all the air you normally force into all the galleys of the caliper. I'll tell you what when I install my new line ill have my buddy film it so you can see how it's done.

If you braking system is mechanically sound and you've properly bleed your brakes then you should need to bleed them nearly so often.

How do you usually fill your new brake lines? Do you do the old syringe method? Can't wait to see your video btw.

I know i don't need to bleed my brakes that often, I just slightly crazy when it comes to bike maintenance.

[rojoracing53]

Originally Posted by tubarney

I would have to second that. When you bleed brakes conventionally air gets sucked in the threads of the nipple. Theres no way to stop this without pulling the stock nipple out and putting some sealant on the threads. Who knows what you would use because brake fluid will eat anything. Even if you use a mighty vac, air is still going to go in those threads. The pull in my rear brake has halved from factory to now. If you want ill even post a video showing you that there is no way your brakes are crisper then mine.

If your sucking air back into the system around the threads when you try and bleed the brakes then your simply doing it wrong. If done right then the threads are tight anytime the system is at a negitive pressure so there is no chance for air to get by. It's not hard once you understand the physics behind it but like I said if you can't get the method down right then speed bleeders make it impossible to screw up

Sorry I never touch my rear brake so I don't rely know what it feels like plus motorcycle rear brakes are so overpowered to begin with its not really critical to get that perfect feel for any other reason then your anal about performance and simply want it to perform to its potential

[mgentz]

the rear brake can be a huge help. not for it's outright power but for its finesse.

[WOTurtle]

Hey rojo, what wheel are you using up front?

[WOTurtle]

Bueller?

[rojoracing53]

Originally Posted by WOTurtle

Bueller?

R-6

[WOTurtle]

R6 front and OEM rear?

[rojoracing53]

Originally Posted by WOTurtle

R6 front and OEM rear?

Yes so they are both 3.5" wheels now

[WOTurtle]

Does the bike corner differently with an all square (sorry used to car terminology) setup as opposed to a staggered width setup?

[rojoracing53]

Originally Posted by WOTurtle

Does the bike corner differently with an all square (sorry used to car terminology) setup as opposed to a staggered width setup?

The dynamics are totally different then with 4 wheels but I would imagine the fact that the wider wheel allowing the tire to sit wider changes the shape of the profile so that would have an effect on the handling. As for the bigger wheel having more gyroscopic resistance, well the R-6 wheel is actually a full pound lighter so it should be easier to turn. When I was doing this mod I was burning through random tire so often my bike was lucky to run the same setup for more then a couple weeks so it's hard for me to remember what it used to feel like. I will say that when I pulled off the bias-ply tires and mounted radials that was a night and day difference but everything since then as far as handling goes hasn't been very noticeable.

I love the way my tires and wheels feel I only wish I didn't blow strait through my suspension while on the brakes or during a less then perfect turn.

@CycleCam303 has ridden my bike a couple times and seems to like it, maybe he would have some input on how it feels compared to his bike. I know when we switch bikes I hate his and it makes me love mine all the more, no offense to Cams bike its still mostly stock.

[CycleCam303]

Rojo is right about the car dynamics being completely different from motorcycles. My bike is stock with a very fried Bridgestone 110/70 BT090 up front. His bike doesn't really have a better turn in than stock but it feels great once you're in the corner.

[lgk]

My bike also dives a lot with heavy braking.
I'll probably get emulators next

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by lgk

My bike also dives a lot with heavy braking.
I'll probably get emulators next

Emulators give you more precise damping. Damping doesn't restrict how far the forks compress, just how quickly they compress. So your forks will still compress the same amount under braking, they'll just do it more gradually. (correct me if I'm wrong here)

I think emulators are over-priced. But then again, I've never used them and I'm sure my mind would change if I had. Same idea as better tires.


Step one: are you using the right spring rate for your weight? You can get a pretty nice front end for street use without spending $130 on emulators.

[rojoracing53]

Don't mind me but when I say getting emulators I mean the whole package including springs and multiple fork oil wieghts, emulators is just easier to say.

[choneofakind]

I just went with springs and oil thickness/level. I'm happy with it.

[lgk]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Emulators give you more precise damping. Damping doesn't restrict how far the forks compress, just how quickly they compress. So your forks will still compress the same amount under braking, they'll just do it more gradually. (correct me if I'm wrong here)

I think emulators are over-priced. But then again, I've never used them and I'm sure my mind would change if I had. Same idea as better tires.

If they slowed the compression while braking, it would give more actual braking time, or allow stronger brakes to work more effectively.

Also it might help with turn in if the front is loaded.

emulator was the cheap route for me, i was going to do a front end swap like gt-turbo

[lgk]

Originally Posted by rojoracing53

Don't mind me but when I say getting emulators I mean the whole package including springs and multiple fork oil wieghts, emulators is just easier to say.

Thats what i meant

[WOTurtle]

Stock front end is most definitely too mushy, and im only 165lbs. I wish someone would give us a 250cc supersport.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by WOTurtle

and im only 165lbs.

The heck with that, I'm 135 and it's soft. The 08-12 bike is better, but still needs work.

[tubarney]

Emulators and springs are worth the cash. Night and day difference.

From the Race Tech bible.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by tubarney

From the Race Tech bible.

Right, but that agrees with what I said. Emulators (damping) doesn't control the amount of nose dive, just how quickly it dives.

And you can get darn close on the damping by mixing fork oil to get your desired oil weight.

[rojoracing53]

Forgot to post up the final product. I've been using it for 9 months now with zero problems a d all kinds of compliments. Also worked great for my trackday at Laguna a few months back.

[choneofakind]

Still have that OE front newgen wheel? I have ideas.

[rojoracing53]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Still have that OE front newgen wheel? I have ideas.

I do but it for when I go race this thing next time, if that ever happens

[LNasty]

I understand swapping out the calipers and rotors for better brakes, but what about just putting in beret pads than OEM? What kind are OEM? What would you suggest that is better stopping power?

[Aodrn]

I'm curious how much weight you added overall. I had been considering a similar setup, but I was going to try to keep the stock wheel. It looks like the clearance between the caliper and the wheel would be the limiting factor. The spare calipers I have do seem to clear, barely, but they are much heavier than stock.

[rojoracing53]

Originally Posted by Aodrn

I'm curious how much weight you added overall. I had been considering a similar setup, but I was going to try to keep the stock wheel. It looks like the clearance between the caliper and the wheel would be the limiting factor. The spare calipers I have do seem to clear, barely, but they are much heavier than stock.

Good luck using the stock wheel, because of its crazy large bolt pattern it doesn't match any other bike rotor in existence to you have to find something made just for our bike which is normally cheap crap. The whole reason for a different rotor is to get a larger OD for more braking leverage. Don't worry about weight though, my R6 front wheel with 320mm rotor and 120mm tire came in over 1lb lighter then the completely stock setup. Now I know the caliper is heavier but I'm not sure how much probably cancels out the front wheel savings. Now because the rotational mass is lighter then there less gyro effect and the bike is easier to turn.

And I'm not sure how far along I was when I last wrote an opinion but I will say now that's its all done and I've done a track day with them I think they're great. But this is only great over stock which totally suck, even with my upgraded brakes when I hop on a 600 the brakes are still way better. If a MotoGP bike is 100% then a AMA superbike is 90% , standard street supersport 60%, ninja 250 is 30%, Harley is 10%, my bike is 45% that's how I see it roughly.

It's a lot of work to get that extra 15% but that's 150% of what you get by just swapping to better pads. If you can get all the parts used for cheap or like me have a lot of leftovers then its worth it. If your going to buy everything new then **** that and just swap on a whole 600 front end and wheel or go buy yourself a rear bike.

I've thought about dropping in my whole quick change R1 front end that way I have dual rotors and I can change wheels in 11seconds just for the hell of it