Social question for you

[CThunder-blue]

So I've been thinking a lot about the state of the world in which we live in. Hunger and famine in many different parts of the world, including the US. They don't report on it, but look at all the charity programs that go to helping people in the states. We have food banks, welfare, food stamps, and during the holidays, more food drives. I don't think these programs are bad at all. I want to ask a question and just give an honest response. I think people on here are mature enough to not deride you for your opinion.

Would you be in favor of population control? Now, I know... The first reaction is: "Why should the government tell me how many children I can and cannot have?" The thing is, if we had less mouths to feed, we would be able to change the entire society in which we live.

First off, with less people, we would have higher employment rates. Even if we had immigrants from other lands, jobs could be sustainable. I'm not saying we would ever achieve 100% employment, but what if unemployment rates weren't accounted in the millions but maybe thousands?

Secondly, with higher employment rates, more people would be able to afford housing and food.

Third, with a smaller supply of available potential employees, wages would go up because employers would want to retain valuable employees. During the tech boom in the late 90's and early 2k, almost every available tech was snatched up by some company or another. It's how I got my start in a small company. I was offered competitive wages as well. Now, we have people with masters degrees driving taxi's. Keep in mind that the unemployment rate was relatively low after the Great Depression until the baby boomer generation hit their stride. This leads to number 4.

Higher wages mean better living and better education. Education has a direct link to crime. There are many studies that show that when young kids do not finish school (grade or high school) they fall into a life of crime easily. Not all do, but there are enough. So we would have less crime as well.

Look at teenage pregnancy between the 40's and today. In the 40's, if a teenage girl became pregnant, she was a pariah. Now, we look and shrug. "Oh look, there's another one." Teenage pregnancy has somehow become a fact of life in this society. The sad part is that this loss of control between kids exacerbates an already grievous problem. If the teenager's parents aren't wealthy (and stats show that less than 10% of Americans fall in that category), it's just one more mouth to feed. If they kick her out of the house, we now have homelessness, hunger, and then the need to survive kicks in. Crime is inevitable unless they're lucky enough to land that minimum wage job. Welfare, food stamps, food banks are then required due to this inflation of unintended pregnancy.

So how would we go about population control? I have my ideas, but I'm not asking how we do it. Just asking if you think we should.

[Blackwidow]

good question, gosh i love threads that are thought provoking!

Its a tough question none the less, because i'm a firm believer that the government sticks their nose into everything that shouldn't a government issue, so having the a-holes in capital hill telling us we can only have an x number of kids is bs! however, on the other hand, it might not be a bad idea since people have kids left and right and some don't have the means to support/take care of them.

My idea would be if you're a family making 6 figures and you can prove it, then have as many kids as you want...but if you're a family on welfare or don't make much money, then some restrictions on having more then x number of kids should apply. Maybe making it a status thing wouldn't be a bad idea.

[want1sobad]

here's the thing - how do you enforce it? personally, i feel part of the problem is our society believes so much in a sense of entitlement, that very few people are willing to work hard to get what they want. the safety nets we have in place have gotten out of control. welfare, food stamps, etc. don't get me wrong, those support systems need to be in place for when people fall on hard times due to no fault of their own. the problem is that many people are more than content to "live off the system". and for the single mom on welfare who chooses not to work, if she can get an additional 300-400 bucks a month for having another kid, then of course she's not going to be to concerned with getting pregnant.....again. before anyone get's offended at that statement, let me share that i was raised by a single mother, who regularly worked 2-3 jobs to sup[port my brother and i. it's a vicious cycle that i really don't see ending.....ever. some people are content on sucking the system dry and being a burden on their fellow man. i honestly think the world is nearing it's breaking point. i read somewhere that scientists estimate the world can sustain and average global poulation of 5-6 billion, considering we're estimated to hit 10 billion by 2020 - it has to stop somewhere. i really think that something is going to happen to significantly reduce the world's population in a very short period of time (something like I AM LEGEND) - i just hope i'm one of the survivors.

[rockNroll]

If you have a 2nd child in China (and you're "poor") you get a fine. Now, lots of chinese men will never have a mate because so many female babies were aborted. Seems most chinese couples want a baby boy instead of girl because a man can provide for the parents when they are elderly better than a woman can.

I don't see any good way of doing it but I think more needs to be done about people popping out more kids so they can keep their free housing, monthly check, etc. Used to hear how the government got strict on that but there sure are a lot of people doing it. I say give an extra benefit/tax break to every one not having more than the one kid to replace you.

[Cab305]

China has had a one child policy for a while now. It doesn't work...

Family favor (culturally) a boy heir. So you had a lot of unwanted girls aborted and or misplaced. So now they have a miss match and not enough women so you end up with (angry horny men) a miss matched society which opens up a whole lot of other issues.

I believe it should be an educated decision. Hopefully you can have a populace that is smart enough to know what's in their best interest. Good luck with that.

Another logical (albeit cruel) solution is forced sterilization. If you commit a violent crime, instead of jail. How about sterilization, you remove yourself from the gene pool and you are free to a certain extent.(not gonna release a mass murderer) Some crimes should automatically be punishable by castration (violent sex crimes). This might also have a positive effect on crime rates.

Another Chinese population control I find quite productive is their death sentence. One 99 cent bullet to the back of the head, quick and easy. I don't want to feed murderers while they watch tv and workout in jail for the next 15 years.

So that's my solution start with the animals that have chosen not to participate in organized civility.

[austexjg]

Eugenics... scarier than the current situation.

[scotty]

This is America. Here we are free to do what we want, (respecting the laws of course). With that said, every person who lives here has the same opportunities as the next person. Our goverment gives us the resorces and help to go to school, help take care of your children, food, ect. They give us the power to better our lives and be able to support ourselfs. Population control? I don't think thats our biggest problem at the moment. People being lazy and blamming the world for their issues is whats wrong. I know China has a law with how many kids you can have and I don't think that is fair. Even though that place is over loaded with people. Its unhuman to tell someone they cant have any kids, or if they have a boy/girl the child will be aborted or what not. No country on the face of this planet is perfect, but I do agree something needs to be done!

[HKr1]

Originally Posted by scotty

With that said, every person who lives here has the same opportunities as the next person.!

Really? I dont crap for free Guess I need to quit my job and live off all the free stuff

[Cab305]

Originally Posted by austexjg

Eugenics... scarier than the current situation.

Ooops, is my white supremacy showing! lol


Disclaimer: Just a joke. I am not nor have I ever been a white supremacist. I'm Cuban so I'm not allowed. lol But when I was 5 I was officially inducted into the Cuban communist party.....

[dubojr1]

I agree something needs to be done but you'll drive yourself crazy trying to find a solution that would suit everyone.

[scotty]

Originally Posted by HKr1

Really? I dont crap for free Guess I need to quit my job and live off all the free stuff

Haha, no umemployment isn't worth much. Lol It's enuff to pay bills and gas. Thats it. people can apply for grants and student loans or what ever. Although they go off your income. So if you make 500,000 a year you don't need help really, but if your a young person working for min and bring home 10,000 a year you can get help. The problem is that people use the system. Its ment for good, not to be lazy.

[scotty]

Originally Posted by dubojr1

I agree something needs to be done but you'll drive yourself crazy trying to find a solution that would suit everyone.

Yup! Every man for them selfs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Alex]

Fertility rates in the US are already the lowest they've been in 50 years, and have been on a downward trend ever since then:

http://www.pregnantpause.org/numbers/fertility.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_fertility_rate

It's the issue that China is just starting to grapple with now, and realizing that having that many fewer working age individuals supporting x number non working age individuals becomes an increasing burden to the point of unsustainability. We're not there yet in the US, but that doesn't mean we won't get there.

[CThunder-blue]

Originally Posted by scotty

This is America. Here we are free to do what we want, (respecting the laws of course). With that said, every person who lives here has the same opportunities as the next person. Our goverment gives us the resorces and help to go to school, help take care of your children, food, ect. They give us the power to better our lives and be able to support ourselfs. Population control? I don't think thats our biggest problem at the moment. People being lazy and blamming the world for their issues is whats wrong. I know China has a law with how many kids you can have and I don't think that is fair. Even though that place is over loaded with people. Its unhuman to tell someone they cant have any kids, or if they have a boy/girl the child will be aborted or what not. No country on the face of this planet is perfect, but I do agree something needs to be done!

Ideally, we would all like to have the same opportunities, but we don't. A large number of execs in this country are male and Caucasian. Women who are execs work twice as hard as the men. There are many fewer ethnic execs as well, male or female. I work for a large corporation and I see it every day.

The government doesn't give us resources. It gives us structure. The tax payers are the ones who provide the money for education, welfare, and so many other things. Wesley snipes is starting his 3 year prison term for tax evasion. Funny, but then why do people who do worse things like sexual assault get lesser sentences?

[Azhyen]

You don't think people/couples are self policing themselves? There are many people out there who would like to have a child, but because of their financial stiuations, are unable to.

I think people are smart enough to police themselves. We don't need the government telling us that we can or can't afford children. As for those who aren't. They must live with the decisions they create.

[scotty]

Originally Posted by CThunder-blue

Ideally, we would all like to have the same opportunities, but we don't. A large number of execs in this country are male and Caucasian. Women who are execs work twice as hard as the men. There are many fewer ethnic execs as well, male or female. I work for a large corporation and I see it every day.

The government doesn't give us resources. It gives us structure. The tax payers are the ones who provide the money for education, welfare, and so many other things. Wesley snipes is starting his 3 year prison term for tax evasion. Funny, but then why do people who do worse things like sexual assault get lesser sentences?

I agree with what you say. Not everyone has the same opportunities, but everyone has fighting chance here. Some have it easier tha others do, and thats the truth. I think the help with welfare, education, umemployment is a great thing...for the 5% who really need and want to use it to better themselfs. It really disgust me to see people just using it to have free money.

The justice system is a whole new subject. Lol There is NO fairness in the system and thats for sure!

[CThunder-blue]

Originally Posted by Azhyen

You don't think people/couples are self policing themselves? There are many people out there who would like to have a child, but because of their financial stiuations, are unable to.

I think people are smart enough to police themselves. We don't need the government telling us that we can or can't afford children. As for those who aren't. They must live with the decisions they create.

No, I don't think people are smart enough to self police. When a 16 year old boy wants to bang anything with a hole and the girl lets him stick it in her, their collective IQ wouldn't add up to be higher than my dog's IQ. This isn't just about married couples, but anyone that can breed. My wife and I have been married for 9 years and we're just now talking about having a kid because it's only now feasible. There are people who practice self restraint, but the ratio to those that don't? It's a very small number. The youngest girl to get pregnant that I can recall was 12 years old. Tell me where you think these kids of the mental capacity to consider the ramifications of having sex at that age? I know that education from the parents and schools should prevent this, but it seems that people in this society are far more blase about teenage pregnancy than in years past. A lot of the hunger problems this nation faces is from these kids having kids and then not being able to support themselves (my own opinion btw). It's a vicious cycle that no one seems to care about anymore.

[Blackwidow]

Originally Posted by Azhyen

You don't think people/couples are self policing themselves? There are many people out there who would like to have a child, but because of their financial stiuations, are unable to.

I think people are smart enough to police themselves. We don't need the government telling us that we can or can't afford children. As for those who aren't. They must live with the decisions they create.

Octomom comes to mind here. she was unemployed, living on welfare and decided to have 8 kids at one time. so NO...not every human makes responsible choices.

[Sailariel]

I am the CEO of a newly reorganized soup kitchen. There is no reason that anybody should be hungry in our neck of the woods--but there are lots of hungry people. The "Why" can be summed up in one word--waste. Restaurants, catering services, etc. throw food away because if they give it away, they are afraid of litigation. We get produce and one day old baked goods from a local super market--that's pretty safe. We have to carry liability insurance as well. That's the food part.

Systemic disincentives are another thing. If a person is unemployed and on public assistance, they are in effect not allowed to work. What they make is deducted from what they get (Which is very little) In that scenario, how can they work themselves out of poverty?

Slumlords: These people make a great living off the poor by supplying them with substandard housing at an exorbinant rate. They convert a two family house into six tiny substandard apartments and charge a mint for a hovel. These people are pillars of the community, serve on boards for charities--classic hypocracy in my opinion.

I, personally do not see overpoulation as the big problem. In my view the problem is poor management of our resources and the misplacement of priorities.

[backinthesaddleagain]

Not to get to far off topic, but here's waste for you. State of RI is in poor financial situation (like many states). But they find $14K to have a portrait painted of the outgoing governor and $19K to paint a portrait of the outgoing speaker of the house. Now the RI School of Design could have had any number of students paint portraits for free to very little money. $33K of waste!

[Azhyen]

I don't think pregnant 12-year-olds and octomom fairly represents the majority of us who are responsible enough to reproduce nor should these select few be reasons for the government to impose its will onto everyone.

I simply think that everyone should be made responsible for their decisions, good or bad. We don't need the government to spoon feed us in all aspects of our lives.

[Reswob]

Originally Posted by Azhyen

I don't think pregnant 12-year-olds and octomom fairly represents the majority of us who are responsible enough to reproduce nor should these select few be reasons for the government to impose its will onto everyone.

I simply think that everyone should be made responsible for their decisions, good or bad. We don't need the government to spoon feed us in all aspects of our lives.

Unfortunately, ****tards who have children (either by conscious decision or accidentally) when they absolutely cannot afford to take care of and raise a child does represent a very large section of Americans.

[want1sobad]

Originally Posted by Reswob

Unfortunately, ****tards who have children (either by conscious decision or accidentally) when they absolutely cannot afford to take care of and raise a child does represent a very large section of Americans.

sad but true......

[CThunder-blue]

Originally Posted by Azhyen

I simply think that everyone should be made responsible for their decisions, good or bad. We don't need the government to spoon feed us in all aspects of our lives.

See, the problem there is that by your reasoning, we shouldn't make it very easy to get welfare or food stamps. Now, who's to judge how much responsibility we should make someone accept for their decisions? Is it right to withhold government sponsored housing to the single mom who works 2 jobs to raise her children? Where do you draw the line? What about abortion? The abortion clinics are all publicly funded. Do we just X them out? Make them take responsibility?

[Azhyen]

You're right. I do think that it shouldn't be so easy to recieve government aid. I think that goverment aid should become more strict as to deter people from trying to take advantage of the systems in place. Those who are found to manipulate the system, should be heavily penalized.

At the same time, who's to say you can't have as many kids as you want? All I'm saying is people should be held accountable. IF you are properly informed and educated, I think you can make a responsible decision. If you decide to have 8 kids, go ahead. I think the government should only go so far to help you. After all, it's not the government's money that's paying for their aid, it's the taxpayers.

[GeneJunkie]

Originally Posted by Azhyen

You're right. I do think that it shouldn't be so easy to recieve government aid. I think that goverment aid should become more strict as to deter people from trying to take advantage of the systems in place. Those who are found to manipulate the system, should be heavily penalized.

At the same time, who's to say you can't have as many kids as you want? All I'm saying is people should be held accountable. IF you are properly informed and educated, I think you can make a responsible decision. If you decide to have 8 kids, go ahead. I think the government should only go so far to help you. After all, it's not the government's money that's paying for their aid, it's the taxpayers.

So true.

I think welfare, food stamps, unemployment have all be severely abused. I know people actually 2 examples of people I know come into mine that have abused the unemployment system. One has been without a job for over a year and just cheered that Obama extended unemployment yet again because it means he doesn't have to look for a job. He has already taken a 14 day cruise to Alaska on taxpayer money and is planning more. There is another ex-coworker of my mom's who was a high up executive that has been traveling the world on taxpayer's money because he was laid off and is reaping the benefits of unemployment.

Food stamps are even more ridiculous. My ex-husband's best friend is currently in medical school. He refuses to let his wife work and rather have her home to take care of the baby because he believes that daycare will cost the same as 1 person's salary (among other things). Well because of this, he applied for and gets food stamps because he doesn't receive a large enough stipend from medical school to cover living expenses. Keep in mind his stipend doesn't include student loans. Excuse me, since when did going to school allow a person to apply for food stamps and use taxpayer money... to fund your future wealth?

My Mom also told me of an article that appeared in the news about families that are 4th generation welfare families. Four generations... seriously, I thought welfare was supposed to be temporary?

It's sickening that some people get free rent, free money, free food, free clothes, etc and have no interest in bettering their life. Unfortunately the American way has become sitting on your ass and having the other man do it for you.

In terms of the population issue, I honestly don't think people should have large families. TV shows like Jon and Kate Plus 8 (well now Kate Plus 8) and 19 Kids and Counting are horrid. Many times people recklessly put these reality tv "stars" on a pedestal, and because of this how many more large families are going to run around. I can see putting a cap on family size, but only if the US population size was exploding out of control...

Anyways, sorry for my Republican side coming out.

[CThunder-blue]

It's always nice to have thought provoking discussions. Helps to stimulate the mind, perhaps persuade others to your point of view, or in turn, be persuaded. Everyone brings up great points! I also agree that welfare and such should be harshly regulated. The crappy part is that even tho every tax payer agrees that the issues are running rampant, not a single politician will take a stand on it because there are a large majority of people who teeter on that poverty line and they may not get re-elected.

[rockNroll]

Logan's Run

[Blackwidow]

Originally Posted by Azhyen

You're right. I do think that it shouldn't be so easy to recieve government aid. I think that goverment aid should become more strict as to deter people from trying to take advantage of the systems in place. Those who are found to manipulate the system, should be heavily penalized.

At the same time, who's to say you can't have as many kids as you want? All I'm saying is people should be held accountable. IF you are properly informed and educated, I think you can make a responsible decision. If you decide to have 8 kids, go ahead. I think the government should only go so far to help you. After all, it's not the government's money that's paying for their aid, it's the taxpayers.

Very well said. Just driving by the welfare office I can see that 80% of the people there can work, so I don't understand why they are getting free funds.

[want1sobad]

there are many, many people in this country who are flat out lazy, bloodsucking leeches.......that's why.

[dubojr1]

Originally Posted by want1sobad

there are many, many people in this country who are flat out lazy, bloodsucking leeches.......that's why.

Wow Vince.... Tell us how you really feel. LOL

[wvninja]

I know a guy that is on unemployment. He says "Why would I work busting my ass to get a paycheck, when I can get a check for $500 a week and go to school for free"

[Sailariel]

Originally Posted by wvninja

I know a guy that is on unemployment. He says "Why would I work busting my ass to get a paycheck, when I can get a check for $500 a week and go to school for free"

That's clearly abusing the system--and, yes, there are some who do. In my view it is also a matter of perception. The abusers garner a lot of publicity--which creates the illusion that there are lots of these people. Kind of like the bad rep. motorcyclists have because of 1%. Or the illusion that motorcycles are incredibly dangerous because people get killed on them. I would be willing to bet that if statistically one set up an even playing field between cars and motorcycles, that motorcycles would score fewer accidents.

The same situation exists in entitlement programs. All of us know at least one abuser. How many of us know a person on welfare who is trying to better himself or herself. Going to school for a GED or an Associate Degree would most certainly make the person more marketable for employment. If you know an abuser, why have you not turned him or her in to the Fraud Unit? Is it easier to complain about it and play victim (The abused Taxpayer) Sounds like Wooden Leg to me (if you look at it in Transactional Analysis terms)

We are all part of a larger system that seeks to maintain a balance. That does not happen as long as we continue to see everything in terms of "We" and"They"

I highly recommend Michael Harrington's book, "The Other America" It's a fast read and a damn good book.

[CThunder-blue]

Only person I know on welfare is my best friend. He's worked all his life and just had an accident that slipped some of his spinal discs. He owned and operated a small body shop by himself, but with his back injury, he can't do it anymore. He's married with 3 kids and just scraping by. I don't know anyone abusing the system, but I probably wouldn't associate with them if I found out they were.

[Flashmonkey]

Originally Posted by Azhyen

I simply think that everyone should be made responsible for their decisions, good or bad. We don't need the government to spoon feed us in all aspects of our lives.

I agree with you. I don't like it when the government starts telling what to do beyond the basic "please don't murder everyone and don't steal everything" policies....but at the same time I also don't believe that the majority of people are smart enough to govern themselves. If they were, then we wouldn't have these issues. Or at the very least they'd be drastically reduced.

Also, there's money to be made in government enforced policies. So there you go.

[wild-bill]

I think alot of problems are not due to overpopulation, but other things. Corrupt gov't-the money doesn't go where it's supposed to(mostly in poor countries). And the attitude of many(particularly in the USA)"Let's just sit back and let gov't take care of us and decide everything for us. Gov't knows what's best for us." People, it's time to start thinking for ourselves and take on some responsibilities.

[PsychoNinja]

Originally Posted by wild-bill

I think alot of problems are not due to overpopulation, but other things. Corrupt gov't-the money doesn't go where it's supposed to(mostly in poor countries). And the attitude of many(particularly in the USA)"Let's just sit back and let gov't take care of us and decide everything for us. Gov't knows what's best for us." People, it's time to start thinking for ourselves and take on some responsibilities.

[revstriker]

Originally Posted by CThunder-blue

First off, with less people, we would have higher employment rates. Even if we had immigrants from other lands, jobs could be sustainable. I'm not saying we would ever achieve 100% employment, but what if unemployment rates weren't accounted in the millions but maybe thousands?

Secondly, with higher employment rates, more people would be able to afford housing and food.

Third, with a smaller supply of available potential employees, wages would go up because employers would want to retain valuable employees.

I have to disagree with this. I believe you are only looking at this from one side. With less people, companies would also sell less product because they would have fewer customers. With businesses selling less product, they would need fewer employees.

The population of the world continues to increase year after year. This is not the cause of people being hungry or out of work. Go back 100 years or more, when the world population was much less than today, and I bet you would see similar or even worse issues with people going hungry.

[Nny]

I remember in science class we talked about a single celled asexual organism left alone in a jar. Every minute the cell would duplicate. The question the teacher had for us is: when would the cell realize that they are out of room in the jar?
I think that question is the only time we should ever consider population control.

I dont think the current population has anything to do with our unemployment rate. I think people are scared to spend money or wisened up on how they spend their money on a week to week, month to month basis. Meaning: less money going into businesses. If they arent collecting the revenue, they in turn cant afford their employees. Which in turn ends up being job cuts for the companies effected.
With that in mind, it is hard for new entrepreneurs to do well in an economy full of people unwilling to spend money on the non necessaties.
Unfortunately, this backfires on us in more ways than one. Less people employed = even less money circulating = more people collecting unemployment or welfare.
You also have to look at it like this: less people paying taxes. I work for a company that is contracted to the state. If the state doesnt have the money to pay for the service we provide, it will be putting alot of us on unemployment..and if you have been reading to this point, congrats you win a cookie.

On the flip side: You get more of a popluation = more demand on even the basic necessaties = more money going into businesses = more jobs. The trick is getting people to spend the money. I mean somebody has to make the track suit and gear I plan on getting for next summer right?
The only thing we need to be concerned about as far as population control goes is: at what point will the environment around us no longer be able to support the amount of life.

[onetruevibe]

Let's remember that poverty is a global concept and there are people in countries who are poorer than our poorest raising families with success.

The international poverty threshold is < $1.25 a day.

Here is a map displaying the world population living below this threshold. U.S. is under 2% living below the threshold compared to places in South America between 6%-20%

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pe...r_day_2009.svg

As mentioned by other posters before, I think a major contributor to these social issues is a false sense of entitlement that is fostered by our government, our communities and parents.

As my Sri Lankan friend (who grew up sleeping on a dirt floor) once said, only in the U.S. do the poor have refrigerators and satellite TV.