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Old December 13th, 2011, 03:45 PM   #161
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Ok, but my question is, with this not lined up correctly, how can I tell if I'm at the end of the compression stroke or not? I could be lining it up 180 degrees in reverse then right, if I'm at the other 2T?
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Old December 13th, 2011, 03:53 PM   #162
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Yes, you are correct. Best way to know is stick a long rod (screwdriver, chopstick, etc) into the spark plug hole. With the mark at 2T, the piston (one closest to the chain/cam gear) should be all the way at the top. Hope that helps.
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Old December 13th, 2011, 04:01 PM   #163
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Plugs in or out?
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Old December 13th, 2011, 04:06 PM   #164
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The spark plugs should have been already removed otherwise you would have a hard time trying to turn over the engine by hand. Everything is under tension under the compression stroke. Your cam and move a tooth or two if you're not careful. That's why you must check the 2T alignment and cam alignment constantly if you did so.
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Old December 13th, 2011, 04:10 PM   #165
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I loosened them, and didn't actually remove them.
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Old December 13th, 2011, 07:26 PM   #166
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I don't have a toolkit, just a 5/8 socket, suggestions to pulling them out?
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Old December 13th, 2011, 10:46 PM   #167
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5/8 socket to loosen it and use your spark plug wire to pull the plug out
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Old December 14th, 2011, 10:37 AM   #168
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Ok, so at both 2T's I can feel it at the top of the plug whole on the 2nd cylinder? Is there another way to know that my timing isn't off by 180 degrees?
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Old December 14th, 2011, 11:37 AM   #169
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So, I have another problem...not sure how this one happened...

I don't know how it happened, or where the broken piece is....maybe in my engine?? I don't see anything inside after removing it. Have I somehow destroyed everything?!

:'(
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Old December 14th, 2011, 06:39 PM   #170
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How do the teeth on the cam gears look? Look even? The pieces may be sitting down at the crankshaft sprocket/ gear... I never took apart an engine do I dont know the anatomy.
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Old December 14th, 2011, 06:53 PM   #171
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The teeth look ok. I don't know where this came from but I didn't notice anything. Is the cam busted?
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Old December 15th, 2011, 06:49 AM   #172
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Should I try and just put this back together and hope this will work?
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Old December 15th, 2011, 01:15 PM   #173
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etiainen: I know you may be discouraged right now, but you are learning a lot of valuable lessons. Don't give up and you'll be more confident, and competent the next time you do your valves...

If you need to open the engine to look for the part down low, I think the clutch cover is all you need to remove (and oil). Take your time, but you will need a new clutch cover gasket. The FIRST thing I would do before opening it further, is to turn the engine upside down and shake it. Hopefully it will just fall out... Seriously though, if you have a small flashlight and telescoping magnet (or other small part grabber), you may get lucky. ALSO, search the garage floor very carefully, as it may have fallen outside the engine. I once lost a shim, and to this day don't know where it went.... but everything was fine. I got lucky.
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Old December 15th, 2011, 01:23 PM   #174
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Yeah I don't know if discouragement can even begin to sum up how I feel. I took a look at where the cams sit and the clutch cover and did not even find any residue from this break. I don't know how anything I could've done ended up with this break. I'm not sure how I couldn't have noticed it before though. I don't have access to that jack anymore so I don't know if turning the engine upside down is an option. Should I try and take apart the clutch to see if its behind that? I'm not even sure how this could break without me noticing.
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Old December 15th, 2011, 01:38 PM   #175
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I would look with a light and magnet before doing anything else.
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Old December 15th, 2011, 01:40 PM   #176
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Yeah, I tried looking for it yesterday to no avail, ill try again today. I don't have a magnet that can really reach in small places though.
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Old December 15th, 2011, 03:47 PM   #177
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So, got a very small magnet, but no luck finding it anywhere ...if I can't find it, what should I do?
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Old December 15th, 2011, 03:53 PM   #178
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Up to you if you want to risk starting it.... it could be OK, and it could destroy your engine. The SAFEST route would be to pull the clutch cover off. I'm sure you are also searching ebay for new cams right about now... If it were me, I would take it apart. It will sit 1/2 way done while waiting for new cams and clutch cover gasket, but you'll find you you'll have several week or two off during maintenance projects (waiting for parts).
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Old December 15th, 2011, 03:56 PM   #179
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I did already pull the clutch cover off to no avail:/

Haven't had any luck finding a newgen intake cam on eBay either.
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Old December 17th, 2011, 08:32 PM   #180
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BTW: I've always wondered.... is the 626 based on a real place in Melbourne?[/QUOTE]

Sorry mate, not quite should what you mean by the above??
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Old December 17th, 2011, 10:26 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by paulforaname View Post
BTW: I've always wondered.... is the 626 based on a real place in Melbourne?
Sorry mate, not quite should what you mean by the above??[/QUOTE]

LOL, don't apologize, it was an obscure reference from an Australian drama series a few years back. The 626 was a fictional high-priced brothel in Melbourne.
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Old December 18th, 2011, 02:20 AM   #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by headshrink View Post
Sorry mate, not quite should what you mean by the above??
LOL, don't apologize, it was an obscure reference from an Australian drama series a few years back. The 626 was a fictional high-priced brothel in Melbourne.[/QUOTE]

Not sure as never heard of it, it may have been called something else here, like Mad Max was as when released in the US it was called the Road Warrior but if about a brothel etc I'm sure someone I know would if mentioned it..Maybe it was so bad we never saw it..I live in St Kilda which every street corner is a brothel..that why it aint good to walk the streets at night as kids ride around in cars throwing eggs at them and if none around they will take aim at you instead..lol
Yeah I think after reading a few posts on valve adjustment might ring around for a few quotes...
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Old March 8th, 2012, 02:57 PM   #183
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Well, guys, I wouldn't recommend installing the CCT the way we did in the video. In fact, the manual says not to! A scary rattle sound appeared soon after that which went away after resetting the CCT the way the service manual describes.

You will have to find a way to keep that spring-loaded flathead screw from turning back while you mount the CCT with the push rod tensioner fully retracted. I took one of those flat aluminum metal pieces from a dust/surgical mask and squeezed the tip with a set of vice grips (was too thick to fit in the hole) then skewed it sideways and folded the other end into the notches to hold it.

Now, do not make the mistake of tightening the tensioner cap bolt and O-ring too much like I did. Get a micro torque wrench and do it right. I pulled all the threads out and now need to find a way to properly cap it or else I'll need to replace the whole thing.

At least the rattle went away.
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Old March 8th, 2012, 03:15 PM   #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CZroe View Post
Now, do not make the mistake of tightening the tensioner cap bolt and O-ring too much like I did. Get a micro torque wrench and do it right. I pulled all the threads out and now need to find a way to properly cap it or else I'll need to replace the whole thing.
YES!!!! I can't agree with you more on this one. The same thing happened to me, and it was a surprisingly small amount of torque that ruined it.

I actually ended up salvaging mine my using some silicone sealant around the bolt. That held it and kept it sealed. I think that bolt only acts as a plug/seal anyways. This hack worked fine for me, and was still in place when I replaced the CCT with a manual model.

@CZroe, maybe I'm confused/forgot, but did you move from SoCal recently?
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Old March 8th, 2012, 03:25 PM   #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by headshrink View Post
YES!!!! I can't agree with you more on this one. The same thing happened to me, and it was a surprisingly small amount of torque that ruined it.

I actually ended up salvaging mine my using some silicone sealant around the bolt. That held it and kept it sealed. I think that bolt only acts as a plug/seal anyways. This hack worked fine for me, and was still in place when I replaced the CCT with a manual model.
I'll certainly try that! Thanks. The O-ring leads me to believe that there could potentially be pressure underneath and it's currently loose enough to fall out from the engine's vibrations so I hope it'll work.

The sad thing is, I went to buy a torque wrench before I got started but Lowes didn't have any! The associate insisted that they used to and even told me how much they cost, but there wasn't even an empty shelf space. I resolved to simply buy one elsewhere in the future because I wasn't going to be riding it until I finished a lot more work. I thought I would only get it snug and then torque it correctly before I ride but it seems that "snug" is too much torque already.

Quote:
Originally Posted by headshrink View Post
@CZroe, maybe I'm confused/forgot, but did you move from SoCal recently?
Yup (see sig).
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Old March 8th, 2012, 04:05 PM   #186
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Yeah, noticed this with the CCT myself as well. Maybe we should make a wiki page with DIY links and additions that detail personal experiences and other info we've used to help each other?

I feel like this is something a lot of people try and the more help the better?
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Old March 12th, 2012, 02:47 AM   #187
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Casey: It sounds like some local dealers may have a free shim replacement program so you should be able to trade in the shims that you have too many of for the others that the Ninjette eats for lunch. Sounds like something worth exploring.

"Free:"
http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showp...&postcount=108
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Old March 12th, 2012, 03:36 AM   #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vampyre View Post
You can order bulks of 30 shims in 6 different sizes here.

http://www.procycle.us/hotcams/valve_shims.htm
I don't see am true bulk option but it looks like these two give you more of what you need for approximately the same price as a more general shim kit (for a Ninjette, that is):

Looks like
Quote:
Shim Refill 7.48mm diameter - Includes five valve shims of each size from 2.40 to 2.65 in .05mm increments. 25 shims in total. $35.95
Shim Refill 7.48mm diameter - Includes five valve shims of each size from 2.70 to 2.95 in .05mm increments. 30 shims in total. $35.95
Even so, 5 of a particular size may not be enough.

"Bulk" IMO would be something like 30x2.65mm for $35.95, 30x2.70mm for $35.95, 30x2.75mm for $35.95, etc. If they really offered that, breaking it down into shim kits of 8 to 10 of each size and selling them to Ninjetters would be a valuable service.
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Old March 12th, 2012, 04:48 PM   #189
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Sorry to keep bumping the thread.
Here's those common shim sizes I use I was talking about.
2.65
2.70
2.75
2.80
2.85
Seems I keep needing a lot of these sizes after 4 valve jobs.
You can see which ones are in overstock. (lots of 2.90 and 2.95 came out of the bikes)
OK, looks like mrcycle.com has some excellent prices on refill kits and individual shims that are extensive enough to build a better kit for less money than a shim kit to start with.

Looking at the chart, I can't tell if shipping is $9 for orders up to $50 or $11, but it's not a deal-killer.

So, basically, the Ninjette is full of 8x7.48OD,2.90/2.95 shims and has been known to consume 2.65, 2.70, 2.75, 2.80, and 2.85 shims. You can get their 2.70-2.95 refill kit with 5x2.70, 5x2.75, 5x2.80, 5x2.85, 5x2.90, and 5x2.95 for $35.67. This lacks 2.65 sizes but bear with me.

The full kit costs a lot more and only has 3x of each size because it has a lot more sizes that you do not need, which you may think is worth using at a dealer with a shim exchange program, but even this kit has sizes you don't need! Why pay more for the full kit and get less of the sizes you need? Along with the 2.90/2.95 shims that will come out of your bike, you have 18 shims to trade to bulk up your kit (8 of each size should be more than enough).

But wait! They sell 2.65 shims for cheaply enough out-right: 5x2.65 for $8.30, 8x2.65 for $13.28. That means even more of those 18x2.90/2.95 shims can go toward bulking your kit up to 8 of each size + whatever your engine consumes.

By my calculations, that's 5 of each size between 2.65 and 2.95 for $52.97 or 54.97 shipped.

I'd go ahead and get 8x2.65 and 5x2.70-2.95 for $57.95 or $59.95 shipped and use the 18x2.90/2.95 sizes included and available to me to bulk up the 2.70-2.85 range to 8x and replace any that the engine consumed.

Links:
Individual 2.65 shims
5xEA refill kit of 2.70-2.95 shims
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Old March 16th, 2012, 07:11 AM   #190
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I am questioning the direction in which the bike engine is being turned.

I know the Service Manual says to turn clockwise. I made the assumption that this means turn the wrench clockwise(as in your videos) but I think that might be incorrect.Not an ask me how I know moment but I did it just like you !

Since turning the engine in that fashion tensions the side of the timing chain that is closest to the chain tensioner and exerting that force onto the chain tensioner I am not quite sure it is the right direction.
I believe that under normal circumstances the engine will be turning in the opposite direction. I will verify that tonight when I am back home.

If the engine is turning in the opposite direction during normal operation it would only make sense to adjust the valves turning it in that direction as well.
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Old March 16th, 2012, 09:15 AM   #191
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Clockwise is it.... guaranteed.
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Old March 16th, 2012, 01:05 PM   #192
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Clockwise is it.... guaranteed.
which way does the engine rotate when it is running?
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Old March 16th, 2012, 01:24 PM   #193
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This manual agrees with me ...fudge if I knew..

http://www.theyeagergroup.com/2008_n..._clearance.htm
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Old March 16th, 2012, 02:22 PM   #194
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This manual agrees with me ...fudge if I knew..

http://www.theyeagergroup.com/2008_n..._clearance.htm
Well, I can't speak for the Yeager Group, but I'm fairly certain he is still technically wrong. Maybe it still works for him though. I looked closely at the image of his ratchet handle to see which direction it was set to turn, although it wouldn't prove anything if the photo was just staged. He does appear to have it set counter.

The following, however, is from the 2008+ Service Manual.

"Using a wrench on the crankshaft rotation bolts, turn the
crankshaft clockwise until the “2T” mark [A] on the alternator
rotor is aligned with the projection [B] in the inspection
window on the alternator cover." Pg 5-17

"Pull the tension side (exhaust side) of the chain taut to
install the chain on the sprockets." Pg 5-18

I think the second quote helps to confirm the first quote was not a mistake in the SM (EDIT: although I can see how this might be interpreted differently). I find that turning it the other way just doesn't work. Although I am not an expert in this, I'm fairly certain this is the direction the engine moves. I've done my valves 2-3 times as it is stated in the SM, and I haven't blown them up yet.

EDIT: I should also note that when rotating the engine with the camshafts off, you also want to keep the exahust side of the cam chain somewhat taut, as it will bind otherwise.
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Old March 16th, 2012, 02:59 PM   #195
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One thing I think that hasn't been mentioned yet is when you are loosening or tightening the camshaft caps, you actually do NOT want to use a star (or crossing) pattern. Although this would normally be the way you would think you would do it, the numbered markings on the caps themselves override the standard general procedure. Failure to go in order of these numbers MAY damage the little dowel pins. Yeager also gets this wrong. Once you get the caps off, if you inspect how it was designed, you will see why, as the two sides don't mate at the same level/time, and a crossing pattern will actually bend the dowel pins that engage first (ask me how I know).

The service manual confirms this: "First tighten down the chain guide [A] and bearing caps
[B] evenly to seat the camshafts in place, then tighten all
bolts following the specified tightening sequence." Pg. 5-18

Another reference is in the General Information section: "Tightening Sequence
Generally, when installing a part with several bolts, nuts,
or screws, start them all in their holes and tighten them to
a snug fit. Then tighten them according to the specified sequence
to prevent case warpage or deformation which can
lead to malfunction. Conversely when loosening the bolts,
nuts, or screws, first loosen all of them by about a quarter
turn and then remove them. If the specified tightening
sequence is not indicated, [then (my edit)] tighten the fasteners alternating
diagonally
." Pg. 1-4
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Last futzed with by headshrink; March 16th, 2012 at 06:24 PM.
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Old March 16th, 2012, 06:41 PM   #196
quanttrom
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Thank you for the advice on putting it back together we should be good now !
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Old March 16th, 2012, 06:43 PM   #197
etiainen
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I turned it clockwise

Turn wheel and find out?
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Old March 17th, 2012, 02:35 PM   #198
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I am reasonably convinced that the valve adjustment should be done with the engine being turned in the direction that it typically rotates in.

I looked at valve adjustment for a variety of engines ranging from the previous gen Kawi 250r to some other Kawi bikes and they all talk about turning the engine in the direction it rotates in during operation.

That said, It shoudln't matter much in which direction it is being rotated during valve adjustment as long as the chain between the sprockets on the camshafts is nice and tight.
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Old March 17th, 2012, 03:51 PM   #199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quanttrom View Post
I am reasonably convinced that the valve adjustment should be done with the engine being turned in the direction that it typically rotates in.

I looked at valve adjustment for a variety of engines ranging from the previous gen Kawi 250r to some other Kawi bikes and they all talk about turning the engine in the direction it rotates in during operation.

That said, It shoudln't matter much in which direction it is being rotated during valve adjustment as long as the chain between the sprockets on the camshafts is nice and tight.
Do we know for sure that the engine rotates clockwise under power?
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Old March 17th, 2012, 05:44 PM   #200
quanttrom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by headshrink View Post
Do we know for sure that the engine rotates clockwise under power?
When you are facing the engine from the timing chain side it rotates clockwise.
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