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Old January 23rd, 2019, 03:10 PM   #1
Misti
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New Techniques?

Heading into the new year, are there any specific "NEW" techniques that you wish to learn more about or try this year? Having had the chance to ride Aragon in Spain in October, I was working on understanding engine braking a bit more and combining it better with trail braking. What are some things that you guys want to know/understand more and what are you planning on working on with your own riding?
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Old January 23rd, 2019, 06:54 PM   #2
jrshooter
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simon crafar closed throttle turning, to come into a turn fast enough that you turn under a closed throttle.https://youtu.be/ps12mz_i3-0
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Old January 24th, 2019, 09:17 AM   #3
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Two goals, neither really "new:"

1) Later roll off/faster entry/earlier on the throttle. I'm still entering too slow, coasting too much and getting on it too late.

2) Downshifting skills on corner entry.

There's this one corner complex at my favorite track that climbs steeply. Ideal entry is to carry speed off the straight as the track starts to climb (the fast guys are doing 100), bang a downshift as the bike slows and power up the hill.

Gravity is helping to slow the bike but with good entry velocity you need braking too.

For my modest pace, the bike wants to be in third gear as the track starts to rise, with a downshift to second once it's slowed enough for entry. I just can't seem to get it right and have blown that corner quite often attempting to make the shift properly. I've taken to just lugging it in third through there, which kills my momentum because I'm well below the bike's power band.

Answer: Either get faster overall so third gear works or sharpen up my downshifting skills to keep the bike settled.

Here's a video of one of the TTD instructors turning a fast lap. He runs in third through there but is fast enough for it to work. Like me, he rides an R6.

Start at about 40 seconds... entering the dog-leg straight leading up to the steep uphill right-hander I'm talking about. You can see the bike get squirrely as he downshifts.

It's hard to communicate how steep this thing is. From the bottom of the track (the apex cone at 0:40) to the top (passing the telephone pole at 1:50) it climbs over 250 feet. The bike really wants to be up in the revs to maintain velocity.

For reference if you zip forward to the end of the video, he's on his in-lap and probably going at about my normal pace. I'm at least 15-20 seconds a lap slower than he is.


Link to original page on YouTube.

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Old January 25th, 2019, 10:00 AM   #4
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I need to remember to push on the bar more, the past couple years (ive only gotten our 1 or 2 times a year), i just "forget" until near the end of the day. I "fall" into the corners at a certain rate everytime to where the bike is just comfortable, but it wont tip in anymore until i start pressing on the bar and i need to constantly start reminding myself. I always wonder why cant i drag knee (ie, get the bike over more), i know i can go faster, my BP isnt marquez but i am making a constant effort to get my head over to the mirror, shoulder down a littler, one cheek off and thigh against the tank.

So ya, just push on the bar and allow the bike to tip in more.
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Old January 25th, 2019, 02:30 PM   #5
Misti
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrshooter View Post
simon crafar closed throttle turning, to come into a turn fast enough that you turn under a closed throttle.https://youtu.be/ps12mz_i3-0
Quote:
Originally Posted by adouglas View Post
Two goals, neither really "new:"

1) Later roll off/faster entry/earlier on the throttle. I'm still entering too slow, coasting too much and getting on it too late.

2) Downshifting skills on corner entry.


For my modest pace, the bike wants to be in third gear as the track starts to rise, with a downshift to second once it's slowed enough for entry. I just can't seem to get it right and have blown that corner quite often attempting to make the shift properly.
Cool. I love that you guys have some very specific things that you wish to work on. Now, upon first reading them, they may seem like they are totally different skills/techniques but there is one thing that can help drastically in both of those situations. Situation 1....coming into a turn quicker, what things can help with turn entry? Hint: What if you knew EXACTLY where you wanted to be to be at turn entry? Would you be able to get there quicker with more accuracy?

Situation 2.....getting a downshift right/consistently. Hint: What if you knew EXACTLY where you needed to downshift into second gear? Would that help with accuracy and consistency? what skill am I talking about here?

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Old January 25th, 2019, 03:14 PM   #6
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Old January 25th, 2019, 06:46 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Misti View Post
Cool. I love that you guys have some very specific things that you wish to work on. Now, upon first reading them, they may seem like they are totally different skills/techniques but there is one thing that can help drastically in both of those situations. Situation 1....coming into a turn quicker, what things can help with turn entry? Hint: What if you knew EXACTLY where you wanted to be to be at turn entry? Would you be able to get there quicker with more accuracy?

Situation 2.....getting a downshift right/consistently. Hint: What if you knew EXACTLY where you needed to downshift into second gear? Would that help with accuracy and consistency? what skill am I talking about here?

misti my biggest problem is not on the 300. my jump to the 600 has been difficult. i over slow all the corners where i have to add throttle to make it to the apex. it seams the bike just slows so much more than he 300.
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Old January 26th, 2019, 07:46 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Misti View Post

Situation 2.....getting a downshift right/consistently. Hint: What if you knew EXACTLY where you needed to downshift into second gear? Would that help with accuracy and consistency? what skill am I talking about here?


Vision, methinks... spotting (and hitting) reference points for roll-off, braking and tip-in.

The way I perceive the issue is that there's a mismatch between what makes the bike happy and what I want to do. I'm having trouble getting the whole speed management/timing thing right.

At my pace the bike wants to be in second gear to power up through that steeply-climbing corner. In third I'm at maybe 4 or 5k rpm. Not lugging per se but definitely not up where the power is.

But there's a big jump from third gear down to second. I feel like I'm in that "no-man's land" where the right speed at corner entry isn't the right speed for the gear I need.

When I blow the corner it's because I'm going just a bit too fast as I let out the clutch. It upsets the rear, which is a Bad Thing. So bleed off more speed before making the shift, right? Right.

I can of course get the downshift done cleanly before tip-in by slowing earlier (while the bike is still straight up and down), but then I've killed my momentum. Note that the track is climbing steeply all through here. The result is that my entry is slow and those behind me get packed up (I have photos to prove it).

So I try to get the downshift done as quickly as possible, as late as possible to maintain that precious momentum.

That leads me to try to do several things more or less at once... modulate clutch, shift, modulate brake, make steering input, fall into corner.

And therein lies my dilemma. I'm just not sharp enough to make it all work consistently. It's gotten into my head to the point that I dread that corner.

The proper approach, I think, is to make my life simpler. Get more comfortable carrying speed up the hill into that corner, so I don't have to downshift to 2nd in the first place.

Which leads back to... vision. Look up, make everything slow down....
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Old January 29th, 2019, 03:13 PM   #9
Misti
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adouglas View Post
Vision, methinks... spotting (and hitting) reference points for roll-off, braking and tip-in.

The way I perceive the issue is that there's a mismatch between what makes the bike happy and what I want to do. I'm having trouble getting the whole speed management/timing thing right.

At my pace the bike wants to be in second gear to power up through that steeply-climbing corner. In third I'm at maybe 4 or 5k rpm. Not lugging per se but definitely not up where the power is.

But there's a big jump from third gear down to second. I feel like I'm in that "no-man's land" where the right speed at corner entry isn't the right speed for the gear I need.

When I blow the corner it's because I'm going just a bit too fast as I let out the clutch. It upsets the rear, which is a Bad Thing. So bleed off more speed before making the shift, right? Right.

I can of course get the downshift done cleanly before tip-in by slowing earlier (while the bike is still straight up and down), but then I've killed my momentum. Note that the track is climbing steeply all through here. The result is that my entry is slow and those behind me get packed up (I have photos to prove it).

So I try to get the downshift done as quickly as possible, as late as possible to maintain that precious momentum.

That leads me to try to do several things more or less at once... modulate clutch, shift, modulate brake, make steering input, fall into corner.

And therein lies my dilemma. I'm just not sharp enough to make it all work consistently. It's gotten into my head to the point that I dread that corner.

The proper approach, I think, is to make my life simpler. Get more comfortable carrying speed up the hill into that corner, so I don't have to downshift to 2nd in the first place.

Which leads back to... vision. Look up, make everything slow down....
Woah! Ok, you have a lot going on here. One main issue but many many aspects of how to get it all done right so let's clear out some of the clutter and figure out what to to work on first. One thing at a time (and you listed about 18 above)

So, first thing you mention is vision, spotting specific reference points for roll off, braking and tip in....Are you doing this? In the specific corner you are working on, do you have a reference point for where you want to brake? What about for where you want to downshift? IF you did, would things be a bit more predictable? Would it help give you some more consistency so that you could then focus on another aspect of sorting out this corner?

Another aspect might be HOW you downshift....When I was in Spain riding Aragon I was working on braking sooner, slower and longer....so instead of having a RP for where I smash on the front brake so hard the rear gets light, I moved my brake marker back so that I could get on the brakes earlier but no so hard. That helped me get the downshift done earlier and carry the brakes in later and longer.....

But when you want to tackle a problem corner it helps to break it down into chunks so you aren't suddenly going in and trying to change/do too many things at once.

So, based on what I mentioned here, what do you think would be the first/most important thing to work on?
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Old January 30th, 2019, 09:12 PM   #10
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The way I perceive the issue is that there's a mismatch between what makes the bike happy and what I want to do.
That right there is the starting point good sir.

You have ONE job as the rider... ONLY one job. Say it with me, "keep the bike stable." Now say it 10 more times!

So you are asking things of the bike that it doesn't like. Please tell us more about that aspect. You are only as good as your skill with the "tool", aka... bike.

From riding with you and your progress notes, I want to you try this. Put the bike in 4th or 5th gear and ride a few laps, not too much shifting gears. All this clutch modulation should be mostly unneeded for the majority of the track's corners, perhaps a one or two. But the bulk of your lap corners should be more black and white, on the gas or on the brakes. Nail the entry speed (downshifts, braking at the right times), own whatever it is, then a solid tip in and fluent throttle roll throughout to the best drive possible.

From our last event where we rode side by side on track, you saw first hand my brake markers are different than yours (Misti's comment above). That directly effected entry speeds between our bikes, with some turning skill tossed in for good measure. You should have it on video even. Check the vids, I would bet our tip in speeds are not that much different, but... our approach, corner attack angles and "flick" speeds may be wildly different. It's fun winter time homework.

Your job, is to figger out how my take on the corner is different than yours (not that you should copy mine... but simply take the best parts that apply to you). I can give you one large hint now, your next big breakthroughs should be in the area of braking and quick flicking. You just gotta learn to build skill and trust in YOUR ability to use them as the they approach their top performance. You are well on your way but, Rome wasn't built in a day if you know what I mean. If I were a betting man, I wager you still brake a bit too early as your conservative riding nature takes hold. BREAK though that personal skill limit a lil bit at a time, baby steps!

"You will never, never, never, never enter a corner... ON PURPOSE, any faster than you believe your skill to steer through it." - csmith

You know what you have to do to work up to that, we covered it at Mid-O.

How would you plan out your next track visit armed with that knowledge?
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