knee draggers

[eddiekay]

I was watching some guys at a traffic cirlce this weekend.
Most of them hung off the seat to the inside and were way forward on the bars. I just can't undertsand this.... is ALL that's keeping them from sliding just those 2 little patches of rubber in contact with the road.
C'mon...I know plenty of you guys race and have stuff like this figured out.And for those of you who DO race....on a clean road...eeer....did you know when the tires are about to let go...chirps....hops?
And....here's one.....I noticed these guys weren't going THAT fast...will the ultra low turn always be the shortest and fastest way around ??

[karlosdajackal]

Just my opinion but...
If they are hanging off correctly the bike will be more upright but turn the same, so it might look more dramatic but in fact the bike is not being worked as hard. So you could argue its safer. Harder work for rider sure, less work for bike.

Watch some motogp racing when it rains and you'll see a lot of people hanging off to keep the bike as upright as possible. Sticking your knee out is a good gauge of how far away the ground is. If you stay in the middle of the seat the whole time with your unprotected knees pressed into the tank your going to have to lean the bike more for the same turn and your going to have less of an idea of how much room you have for manover until you start dragging pegs so you will run out of grip quicker.

Dragging pegs or not, hitting gravel is the same in both situations most of the time you'll ride it out with no issue, how the rider reacts to the hazard can usually be more trouble than the hazard itself. If your front wheel hits gravel and you do nothing it will probably slide a bit, clear the gravel and grip again. If you chop the throttle, try stand it up aggressively, grip the bars tightly so the bike can't naturally find its own balance again you'll probably crash, hanging of or not.

Just my opinion, and yes I've hit gravel while leaned over without crashing.

[rockNroll]

eddie... I read your post three times and I'm still not clear as to what you're asking and/or stating. Sorry.

[eddiekay]

Gee RnR...I get that a lot ....and actually i raised a few points. As coherently as i can....
what keeps the bikes from sliding...
If one simply tilted a bike...wheels in line, let's say 45 degrees
one could pretty easily slide the bike sideways Right ?
Now, I see these draggers...
bike tilted 45 degrees...moving...and exerting a lot of sideways pressure but the bikes don't slide (wipe out)
So....is this because the wheels are not in line...because they're changing the COG by moving their butts inboard...because they're moving the front into the turn ? This is like a "how do airplanes fly" question....we all know they do but...I hope this is a little easier to answer

[eddiekay]

RnR...the latter 2 questions, maybe more simply
"Do you know just before your rear wheel slides out"...any signals you get from the handlebards or tires? ( in a fast low turn) ?
The last one....I've seen guys go into short turns...let's say 90 degrees and do a very awkward looking manuuver....throw the bike way down and jerk it right back up...and they make the turn without really using all the space they have....and I've seen most guys pick a line and sail thru very nicely. If you race, in your experience...is picking a line the preferred way thru or did i just see a couple of guys do something wrong and simply get away with it. The throw and jerk guys were riding Warriors, amazingly maneuverable cruisers.

[bdavison]

Its all about lean angle. If you take a corner without shifting off the bike, the bike has to maintain a higher lean angle to take the same corner. See the photo above. In this picture you can see the bike at a lower lean angle, while the rider is positioned so that his lean angle is what is required for the turn. If he remain planted on the seat and matched the lean angle of the bike, it would have turned wide.

By leaning off the bike, it allows the bike to keep a lower lean angle, and thus more traction because of the footprint on the ground. In the photo above if he was inline with the lean angle of the bike...to make that turn, he would be riding on the sidewalls...which would very likely result in a lowside.

[ninja250]

On stock ninja 250 tires I feel them slide all over the place. You SHOULD feel it before it happens and be able to correct it with the stock tires if you are paying any attention and have good throttle control. If the front starts chopping it's scary as hell but you can still avoid crashing if you start chopping and ease up on it. (don't panic like me and look for a rail when your front starts chopping) The rear slips out all the time and if you keep everything just right you won't highside on the stock rubbers if you are careful.

With good tires, I hear they just "let go" all the sudden when you're pushing it.
I've yet to push my good tires.

[2WheelGuy]

Originally Posted by ninja250

With good tires, I hear they just "let go" all the sudden when you're pushing it.

It is actually quite the opposite. OEM tires, cheap tires, street tires have very little feedback. Everything is fine then all of the sudden it feels like your bike just got power steering. The next thing you know you are on the ground.

With good tires, such as the Bridgestone BT-003s that I am currently using you get tons of feedback without crashing. You can feel that the tires are sliding but they don't let go.

OEM tire example:

[ninja250]

That's interesting.

I've been able to prevent highside and lowside situations so far on the stockers when I feel them slide if I let up just a hair. The guardrail thing was panic from feeling the front slip but I didn't know what to do about it at that time. I didn't actually lowside when the tire slipped, rather stood the bike up straight (unfortunately). Speaking of the IRC tires included on the new gens.

I can't say anything but what I've heard on good tires though since I haven't really played on them yet.
I'd probably rather take your advice since you seem to track the 250 quite a bit.

[rockNroll]

Originally Posted by ninja250

That's interesting.

I've been able to prevent highside and lowside situations so far on the stockers when I feel them slide if I let up just a hair.

Let's think about that one......


It has been my experience that to let up is to help induce a high side, not prevent it. My experience is somewhat limited, however.

[Terrorizer]

Good post, that sounds right. I think actually when you are leaned over there is actually more tire on the road then when straight upright? Depending of course on the tire design thats why those maniacs going arount turns over 100 mph dont just slide away.

[ninja250]

Originally Posted by rockNroll

Let's think about that one......


It has been my experience that to let up is to help induce a high side, not prevent it. My experience is somewhat limited, however.

I'm not positive as I have not highsided myself either. Nothing close, it's more like drifting I guess?

But when I do feel the rear slip I let up a very small amount and it seems to stop. Kinda like the guy in that video. He didn't fully let off but he did a tiny bit, you could hear it.

I could be doing all kinds of other things wrong too. Who knows.
Just what seems like was going on with those IRC tires I had on there. They were a lil slippery but got slightly better as I learned to position better and broke them in more. Then came the bad line..

[LazinCajun]

Off-topic: I have a question about the Rossi picture. There's a change in texture on his rear tire -- there's an area to the right side of the tire where it's not as shiny. Is that because he's running a dual-compound tire in that pic, or some other reason? If it is a dual compound tire, I never realized that the two compounds would look so different.

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by LazinCajun

Off-topic: I have a question about the Rossi picture. There's a change in texture on his rear tire -- there's an area to the right side of the tire where it's not as shiny. Is that because he's running a dual-compound tire in that pic, or some other reason? If it is a dual compound tire, I never realized that the two compounds would look so different.

If I remember right they all them asymetric tires. One shoulder/side is a harder compound to withstand harder heat loads. Use them for tracks that have a dominate run side or a section that is particularly hard on one side or the other of a tire.

[esi7esi7]

Your upper body should be down...like this.

But like mentioned earlier, I should be getting off the bike more so that I'm not carrying as much lean angle. Less lean angle means more contact patch and hopefully more traction!