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Old April 15th, 2018, 06:21 AM   #1
NinjaRacer
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New rider.

Hello from Georgia. This is my first bike. Glad I found this website it's great.
Bike is 2008 250R. It has K&N and two brothers. I'm jetting it right now.
With 3 washers on each side and main jet 112.

Last futzed with by NinjaRacer; April 15th, 2018 at 09:19 AM.
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Old April 15th, 2018, 06:42 AM   #2
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Old April 15th, 2018, 07:14 AM   #3
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Hello Guram, it's good to meet you. I know several people from Georgia (US), but not the country, so you are the first. What is riding a motorcycle like in your country?
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Old April 15th, 2018, 08:38 AM   #4
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welcome. i’m from georgia too. small world.
lots of great info/ideas/mods.
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Old April 15th, 2018, 09:54 AM   #5
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Thanks.
Nice to meet you all.

Tripple Jim
Well roads are crap in Tbilisi. And too many cars. When I do lane splitting everyone thinks I'm doing something wrong and I gets lot of hate and angry comments but it doesn't bother me anymore... They'll get used to it too It's scary sometimes, cars changing lanes, without turn signals and none sees you when you are on a bike, but I'm getting used to it.
I can get around from one end of town to the other in ~15 minutes in heavy traffic. It's too much fun

Once you get out of Tbilisi roads are perfect for riding. Lots of nice places to ride. My friend is from Netherlands and he has bike rental service here for tourists so come visit and see for yourself

Currently it's down for maintenance. Valve adjustment, spark plugs, rejet and things. Hope it'll get back on the road soon.
I removed snorkel, cleaned air filter. Hope 112 jet and 3 washer will work.
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Old April 15th, 2018, 09:59 AM   #6
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check out jetting database. might help out.
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Old April 15th, 2018, 10:08 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by maverick9611 View Post
check out jetting database. might help out.
Thanks I already did all 5 pages of it
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Old April 15th, 2018, 10:37 AM   #8
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i’ve explored all main jet sizes with pods and locked down 108’s as best running. (for my altitude)
good luck. lots of mods for newgens.
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Old April 15th, 2018, 11:56 AM   #9
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I think I'll try both 110's and 108. Thanks for sharing.

am @1,250–2,530 ft

When I got this bike was running unbelievable 29 MPG
8 L/100km and more... I measured it couple times.
I knew something was wrong. Took apart carb and idle screws were almost completely out. 4 turns out or more. Jets were clogged and spark plugs are from pre-gen ninja.

I hope with washers & new jets I get better MPG and performance.
previous owner told me he had carbs cleaned, new spark plugs and K&N drop-in filter installed.
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Old April 16th, 2018, 04:59 PM   #10
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Old April 16th, 2018, 06:00 PM   #11
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Old April 16th, 2018, 08:31 PM   #12
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Old April 19th, 2018, 06:47 PM   #13
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Old April 21st, 2018, 06:42 AM   #14
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Thank you all for warm welcome.

I tuned the bike little bit. I never had so much fun tuning my cars.
Its so funny how angry and mean it sounds now (much like my subie) and it pulls nicely too. Very fun. It's like different bike now.
Before it went 120km/h max now 160 no problem and 180 if you lean under the windscreen I have bigger tires I think that helps with speed little bit.
This is before main jets. I'm still waiting for it to arrive. Had pulled carbs 3 times because I was stoopid I had vacuum lines done wrong. Thanks to the wiki I learned about CV carbs and found it. Hooked vacuum to rubber diaphragm lower chamber and it was running very lean on idle because deceleration enrichment valve was left without vacuum and petcock too . Replaced pilot screw seals. Cleaned carbs once again added more washers total 5 washers.
I wish I had never sold my wideband it would help now
I added silencer to my can and it pulls so much better. Little bit rich I think but good. I think I need bigger main jets and 3 washers under the needle.


I think I heard detonation when I had vacuum lines wrong. It should have been detonation because, vacuum for deceleration enrichment valve and petcock was hooked to the diaphragm and one cylinder was very lean. When are so close to the engine you can hear everything clearly that's good when you don't have ECU to retard timing on knock.
I had so much fun messing with it and thanks again all. Lots of great people and info here.
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Old April 21st, 2018, 06:57 AM   #15
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oops..
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Old April 21st, 2018, 04:08 PM   #16
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Old May 9th, 2018, 12:17 PM   #17
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HI.
I got 110 keihin main jet and it was bogging down at 8K. I'am on 98 again and 2 washers it runs much better.
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Old May 9th, 2018, 12:22 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NinjaRacer View Post
HI.
I got 110 keihin main jet and it was bogging down at 8K. I'am on 98 again and 2 washers it runs much better.
Please note that optimum jetting for new-gen vs. pre-gen bikes are >> COMPLETELY << different. This is due to differences in tuning with pre-gen optimised for high-end power while new-gen for mid-range torque. Cam-specs are different, head port shapes are different, exhaust are 2-2 versus 2-1. This creates completely different flow-pattern from idle to redline. Jetting for pre-gen will not work for new-gen.

When dealing with jetting changes, look for before-and-after dyno-charts to verify what changes it made to AFR in what RPM-ranges. Here's some reference articles:

Racing on the Cheap - scroll down to "The Nuts and Bolts" section, note: "close to perfect" is with full AreaP exhaust and factory jetting.
Racing Order - Dyno testing
Dyno testing full AreaP exhaust - still too-rich high-end, lean mid-range only - thinned needle to correct.

Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; May 10th, 2018 at 08:59 AM.
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Old May 9th, 2018, 11:44 PM   #19
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Thanks. It makes sense now. Japanese cars are tuned the same way. I didn't knew about head port sizes and such. Thanks for sharing. Yes overly rich topend. I also have snorkel deleted and needles raised. It gives best performance I can feel it on my butt dyno. Also I tried 95 fuel. Runs really good now. I can feel its still little rich. Main jet also affects off idle speeds very much not onlY WOT. You must have correct mains first to tune. Then 2.5 open screws and play with needle thats it. I had wideband in tailpipe not very accurate on idle but with 110 jets topend was below 12's and thats when it starts to bog really hard like hitting a wall bog.

I also adjusted valves. It was way out of spec. 0.10mm exhausts and 0.15 intake. I didn't have shims so I rearanged them and got all exhausts 0.20 and intakes 0.15. Not within specs but close. I don't care really. It should be ok. I hope. I'm happy with it now.

Didn't check AFR after but it should be pretty close 13's like yours Don't want to go much leaner. I heard timing is really high on these and compression is 13:1 like.
note: you don't have to remove carbs(such a pain) you just have to remove left side fairing and tank. Then you can access both needles and main jets with little patience and get new hex bolts. They don't have to be super tight btw. You gonna lose some bolts and some are gonna strip. Get the bolts and it makes it really easy and fun job. 15 minutes and your done.
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Old May 10th, 2018, 02:00 AM   #20
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i’ve been running with 108’s and it still feels rich. i have 6 “inch uni pods, full exhaust, factory pro jetting. i’m trying 102’s next. gas mileage has been 40 mpg. i wonder why factory pro only offers 110,112,115 on their pod jet kit. tried em all/way to rich.
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Old May 10th, 2018, 03:53 AM   #21
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I've heard that you need to go two sizes up for exhaust and two up with pods. So 102 keihin should be good. but always test.
I attached photo of the jet I used. Dont know how it compares to dynojet sizes or keihin. Its not too big than stock though.
I've had 35 mpg when I got the bike. It had stock jets. stock needle height but screws were 4 turns out and valves unadjusted. Don't know mpgs now but I'll update soon. Even with stock jet i think you should be fine You can test both and tell us what works for you
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Old May 10th, 2018, 04:33 AM   #22
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i’m going with danno’s recommendation and will continue to lean out the top end. he recommended try the 100’s but i will try 102’s first as i want to be cautious.(scared)
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Old May 10th, 2018, 04:45 AM   #23
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I was scared at first too. That's why I didn't believe you with 108's. Go ahead you will feel whats right. You can tune it with feel

I just slapped one more washer back in literally under 15 minutes. You don't have to remove fairings either. Just the front seat and petcock.
If your diaphragm is swollen for some reason you put it in freezer for 30 minutes and it will shrink.

I'm done for some time now. Really happy with it.
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Old May 10th, 2018, 08:31 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by NinjaRacer View Post
I've heard that you need to go two sizes up for exhaust and two up with pods.
For pre-gens maybe, not new-gens. Factory airbox and air-filter is plenty large for a 250cc engine, larger than some autos. So replacing with pods won't improve flow much since there's no restriction there. Perhaps if you had extreme high-RPM cams on a pre-gen perhaps. Certainly won't do anything on a new-gen where tuning doesn't depend upon high-RPM flow anyway.
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Old May 10th, 2018, 08:44 AM   #25
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Didn't check AFR after but it should be pretty close 13's like yours Don't want to go much leaner. I heard timing is really high on these and compression is 13:1 like. .
Tuning is best done with accurate data. New-gen has 11.6:1 compression. Pre-gen has 12.4:1 compression.

I'm trying for 13.0:1 AFR, but jetting is still way too rich in high-end where mains contribute most. With full-exhaust, free-flow air-filter and +20% more flow and +20% more power, I'm still in the mid-11:1 range with 97.5 mains (DynoJet 96), smaller than stock 98.



Here's various areas that's tuned by different parts of carbs. Horizontal scale is actually not accurate, should be a function of Throttle*RPM. At idle and low-RPMs, carbs don't generate enough flow & vacuum to open slides much anyway, so mains don't make much difference. I need to go down to smaller mains and add 1 more washer to flatten my AFR and get even more power, aiming for +25%.




No one I know in 250 Production class runs anything other than stock 98 or smaller with full-exhaust+K&N after dyno-tuning. That's 20% more flow minimum and +20% more power than stock. Removing filter completely made no difference. I did over 48 track-days on my race-bike last year on 97.5 mains and that's including some insanely hot days.



Here's plugs comparison of my 2008 250R race-bike with 97.5-mains and +20% more flow & power VS. my bone-stock 2008 250R street-bike with refurbed bone-stock carbs 98-mains (thanks Ducatiman) after 20-minute back-to-back sessions at Thunderhill on same day.



I don't have the before dyno-chart, but stock was off-the-scale richer at 9.6:1 AFR above 9000rpms. Here's comments by Ducatiman, the Lord of Carbs: https://www.ninjette.org/forums/show...77#post1204277

"Just a heads up...there is a great habit of folks to overfuel (much more is better) when jet kits are installed."

"^ or the misguided belief that .....bigger = better ........more fuel= more power
Within my service, time to time I've seen some obscene jetting configs."

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Old May 10th, 2018, 09:27 AM   #26
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Yes. Correct 12.4 compression ratio with pre-gen.
So when I hooked wideband to my tailpipe @8500 rpm it was bogging down and it was below 12 AFR. Tailpipe method is not very accurate because you need some exhaust pressure and no air(exhaust leaks etc). That's why AFR meter should be in the bung not far from headers. So below 12 that's even rich for boosted applications.

I think main jets as well as needles have big effect on 2500+ RPM. Because with 110 jets it was bogging down exactly at 2900 RPM and 8900 rpm. After 98 mains no more bogs.

Today I added washer 3 washers each side total and its started to bog down in the same 2500 region. After removing and leaving 98 main with one washer it runs ok. I think it is still rich. It just doesn't feel right.

I never checked AFR after rejet but if it's anything below 13 I will be downjetting till I get 13 afr.

11's. that's way too rich. I never seen such crazy number.
Actually at 9.5 afr it should just stall on idle. Even with boost on redline with 35 degree timing 9.5 AFR is nowhere near acceptable number.

Agree filter element has SOME restriction but not too much. I have K&N box filter it flows more than adequate
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Old May 10th, 2018, 10:46 AM   #27
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Tailpipe wideband sensor is OK if you've got long straw to sample way up pipe like what is used on dynos.

Theorectical max-power is 12.5:1, but actual testing shows it's around 13.5:1 on NA engines. Boosted engines I like around 12.0:1 for some safety. Doesn't sacrifice much power compared to 12.5:1, but gets you larger safety margin.

You might want to completely clean & floss your carbs (or send them to Lord of Carbs for refurbishing). You'll most likely see even richer AFRs. Might want to go with 2 washers and 96-97 jets. You're probably in 10.5:1 range now... or richer where it stumbles.

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Old May 10th, 2018, 10:55 AM   #28
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so basically everything in the jetting database is worthless. unless you factor in altitude right? still strange how the database doesn't even mention anything below 108's. only a few run 108's. great thread on tuning.
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Old May 10th, 2018, 10:58 AM   #29
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didn't have straw nor time to make it. It was reading 25 at all times on all setups at idle after 3K RPM it went quickly down towards 10

My carbs are cleaned 10x times by me and one time by professional shop when I was troubleshooting...
I wish Lord of carbs lol do his magic on carbs though but it's not this time unfortunately.

Now I can see how rich really they are from factory.

Some dyno charts with AFRs of the stock/modified bike would be useful now. I cannot find any.

Actually some mentioned they run 98 and even lower jets. I was really skeptical

In the end ninjette is not made for power and chasing HP.
Probably richer jets work well on acceleration and HP difference is so small that we don't even notice running rich.
altitue and temp is also big factor.
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Old May 10th, 2018, 11:18 AM   #30
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Old May 10th, 2018, 12:58 PM   #31
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so basically everything in the jetting database is worthless. unless you factor in altitude right? still strange how the database doesn't even mention anything below 108's. only a few run 108's. great thread on tuning.
Not worthless, just incomplete data incorrectly linked to model-year and configuration. Mostly for pre-gens and some new-gens snuck in there. What wasn't reported was before & after behavior. "Smooth and civilized" tend to be too rich and slow. Max-power tuning creates a raw, temperamental rough beast that's faster, but more difficult to manage. Remember that '60s hot-rod saying... "Lean is mean!"


P.s. altitude requires smaller jets.

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Old May 10th, 2018, 01:12 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by NinjaRacer View Post
Now I can see how rich really they are from factory.

Some dyno charts with AFRs of the stock/modified bike would be useful now. I cannot find any.

Actually some mentioned they run 98 and even lower jets. I was really skeptical

In the end ninjette is not made for power and chasing HP.
Probably richer jets work well on acceleration and HP difference is so small that we don't even notice running rich.
altitue and temp is also big factor.
Here's before & after dyno-chart of:



blue = bone-stock new-gen 250R, mid-range slightly lean, top-end rich

red +19% = Area P Full exhaust system

green +29% = Area P High-Mount race exhaust system


Running non-stock race bikes can be exercise in frustration, will stumble and pop when you're trying to split through traffic. Really only good at full-throttle above 10K-rpms; not easy to ride like that on street all the time. I would add some washers to needles or spin some custom ones on lathe with thinner middle section.

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Old May 11th, 2018, 12:42 AM   #33
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nice.
Do you have fuel curve also?
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Old May 11th, 2018, 01:33 PM   #34
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i have 102 jets. will install and check it out.
exploited 250r
40 pilots
uni pods 6"
factory pro needles@notch 4
mains @108, trying 102's
mpg 40
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Old May 12th, 2018, 02:24 AM   #35
NinjaRacer
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Name: guram
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Motorcycle(s): ninja 250r

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Maverick

use this as a reference might help
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=67530
http://www.ninja250mods.com/Ninja-20...Ninja-250r.jpg
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=122283
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Old May 12th, 2018, 03:22 AM   #36
maverick9611
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Location: Augusta,Georgia
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Motorcycle(s): 2015 moto guzzi norge(brownie),2020 aprilia dorsoduro,

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MOTM - Feb '18
thanx
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"trying not to get old"
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Old May 12th, 2018, 06:55 AM   #37
DannoXYZ
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Name: AKA JacRyann
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Motorcycle(s): CB125T CBR250R-MC19 CBR250RR-MC22 NSR350R-MC21 VF500F CBR600RR SFV650 VFR750F R1M ST1300PA Valkyrie-F6C

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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
Here’s one. Dips into 11:1 AFR in high end like mine


I swore off Innovate after their LM-1 blew up some very expensive Porsche engines. The gauge is analogue and takes a voltage input and compares it to reference and converts it to numerals. Problem is reference voltage is unregulated battery voltage! Turn on headlights and you see AFR displayed change!

I don’t like AFR gauges. Dangerous to use on road and you can’t possibly eyeball 100-rpm precision. Best to use datalogging and even better to have wideband with on-board datalogging memory so no laptop needed. Push button, do some runs, push button to stop. Then go home and download data for analysis.

Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; May 12th, 2018 at 10:27 AM.
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