April 14th, 2012, 02:15 PM | #1 |
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Name: Joe
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Dies at higher speeds/slowing down from higher speeds
First off, I want to apologize in advance if this turns into a long post. I'm going to try to explain the situation in detail in hopes of finding a solution with everyone's help. So also, thank you in advance.
OK, so... I'm a noob. I have an 05 Ninja 250 what I bought about a month ago. It was sitting outdoors for about 6 months before I took it home. With that said, me and my buddy (a mechanic who has worked on his own bikes for at least 10 years) went through and did the following: drained the fuel tank and cleaned lines removed and cleaned carbs changed spark plugs changed oil & oil filter installed new air box and air filter (old one was removed we believe due to previous owner replacing stock exhaust with Muzzy exhaust fixed some electrical issues installed new front rotor The bike seemed to be working fine after all of that. I've been riding throughout the neighborhood for a while just to get some experience and feel comfortable on it. Well, today I decided to be brave and take it for a run down the real road to the gas station for some smokes (about 2 miles each way). All seemed to be going well and I was feeling confident about it (note: speedo read 50mph and I was in 5th gear) until I started to slow down a bit and prepared to downshift in order to make a right-hand turn. So I let off the gas, pulled the clutch, downshifted, and then I noticed that the RPMs weren't increasing when hitting the throttle. The needle just dropped to zero and the bike died (no jerking as though stalling out - just simply died out). Luckily I was near a parking lot entrance so I managed to roll in for obvious safety reasons. It wouldn't start up right away so I gave it a few minutes and it fired up (using slight choke because it would start otherwise). I made it across the street to the gas station, went in and out, and the bike started up perfectly for the return trip (no choke needed). So I'm on my way home down the road (note: 50mph but 6th gear this time - thought it might make a difference. It did seem to make a different sound though. Couldn't exactly tell with my helmet on and the wind noise) and what do you know!! The same exactly thing happens as I'm slowing down to take the right-hand turn into my neighborhood. But this time I couldn't get it to start back up - with and without choke. And when I tried giving a quick rev in hopes of it catching, the throttle did nothing; the RPMs wouldn't budge. So I walked to bike home. Still wouldn't start when it was back in my garage. After about 15 minutes of sitting, she started right up like nothing happened. So I took it for a spin around the neighborhood to check it out and not a hint of a problem. I checked the fuel filter and it's clean as a whistle. I checked the oil filter and it looks good (just put it in maybe 2 weeks ago. I checked my gas (had it running on "ON" btw) and there's gas in the tank but it's just below the center hump. I didn't think that was low enough for "Reserve." So my question is.... What do you guys think is going on? Could it simply be a "Hey noob, you're an idiot. You need more gas in your tank" problem or something worse? Thanks again in advance for the help! I just want this thing to run smoothly so I can start riding and getting miles under my belt. |
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April 14th, 2012, 03:15 PM | #2 |
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Sounds like your carb bowls aren't refilling while the bike is running. That's where the carbs draw fuel from.
Check the operation of the petcock. Run a hose from the fuel nipple to a can, and then get a hose for the vaccum line, and suck on the vaccum hose you just got. Fuel should flow when sucked on. |
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April 14th, 2012, 04:45 PM | #3 |
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If it runs two miles OK, it sounds like a lack of ventilation in the tank, which holds the gas from flowing down once certain amount of internal vacuum develops.
Opening the gas cap to put gas, may have returned the pressure to normal.
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April 14th, 2012, 05:07 PM | #4 |
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Tight valves possibly?
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April 14th, 2012, 06:25 PM | #5 |
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The other thing I thought of: did you try switching the petcock to "res"? My buddies bike was acting like this. It would go 2 miles, then die like it ran out of gas. Turns out that he just barely had enough gas that when the bike was on the sidestand, the carbs would fill, but when upright, there wasn't enough gas to fuel the engine when on "on" setting. aka, we could start it, and it was fine, but then when we test road it around the neighborhood, 2 minutes later, it would die.
Anyhow, just humor us and try switching the petcock to "res" and see if it runs better. |
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April 14th, 2012, 07:23 PM | #6 |
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I discovered the lovely punctured-fuel-tank-from-the-bolt-hole today when I filled up my gas cans and filled up in the garage since I didn't trust it going to the gas station again. So needless to say, I have that issue to fix now too. But I will check out the petcock to see if it's flowing correctly in the morning though.
greg737 caught my attention with his post on http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=100782. (The Sherlock Holmes analysis post) Could the aftermarket full Muzzy exhaust be causing the bike to simply die at high speed and/or rpms? I'm going to take a shot at PMing him about it but I wanted to bring the idea up here. And... Thanks big time for the help. I've been working on this bike for a month and it's starting to get really frustrating. |
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April 15th, 2012, 08:42 AM | #7 | |
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Quote:
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April 15th, 2012, 09:15 AM | #8 |
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It should be a steady stream for as long as you're pulling a vacuum on the petcock. Once vacuum stops, so should the flow of gasoline.
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April 15th, 2012, 09:46 AM | #9 |
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Thanks. I'll be checking it out in a little while.
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April 15th, 2012, 10:16 AM | #10 | |
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April 15th, 2012, 10:53 AM | #11 |
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April 15th, 2012, 11:36 AM | #12 |
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Finding out whether or not the petcock vacuum actuator operates properly is a start. It'll be good to know that information because your description of the details of your problem certainly sounds like a fuel delivery issue.
If the petcock checks out, i.e. flows fuel normally under vacuum pressure (you sucking on the petcock's vacuum line, sounds bad doesn't it?), and doesn't resist vacuum pull (due to a clogged atmosphere port, it's the little hole at the bottom of the petcock), and doesn't have a leak (slow, pin-hole type of leak) through the rubber petcock membrane that reacts to the engine vacuum pressure or doesn't have a leak around the edges of the membrane were it is supposed to be firmly sealed by the pressure of the screws that hold the petcock assembly together.... .... then you'll have to move on to evaluating the vacuum line from the carbs. During engine operation the carbs will experience varying levels of engine-produced vacuum. Across the engine's operating envelope a closed throttle situation generates a high-vacuum condition while a open to wide-open throttle postions produce less vacuum pull in the intake tract. If there's something interfering with the transfer of vacuum pull through the tube from the carb to the petcock, that is slowing the fuel filling of the carb's bowls, then it would be more obvious at larger throttle openings. If this is your problem then it might be true that you could ride the bike forever around the neighborhood at low throttle positions because the higher intake tract vacuum pull would be getting the most fuel through the petcock, plus you're using less fuel at the lower engine speeds. It could be that your fuel starvation description confirms this senario. If the bowls were only just barely filling fast enough to keep the bike fed at the 50 mph criusing speed then the sustained forward "slosh" caused by deceleration might be able to cause the bike to stall. Also, you mentioned that the bike had been stored outside by the prior owner. Another factor in the flow of fuel from tank to carbs on the EX-250 is the negative-pressure relief valving in the gas cap (the EX-250's gas cap is actually a pretty complicated item if you take the time to look at it). If something is preventing the gas cap from venting properly against the negative pressure that normally develops inside a gas tank during engine operation then it could be part of or the entire source of your problem. |
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April 15th, 2012, 12:14 PM | #13 |
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April 15th, 2012, 12:20 PM | #14 | |
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Quote:
Also, where is the gas cap vent located? I haven't quite been able to figure that out yet. And I apologize if some of my questions are dumb/motorcycle-ignorant. I'm trying by best to learn exact what makes this thing work. |
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April 15th, 2012, 12:43 PM | #15 |
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There is a hose from the vacuum nipple (the smaller one) to the carbs. Just pop that hose off the carbs quick and suck on that end
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April 15th, 2012, 12:47 PM | #16 | |
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Quote:
Side question: should this be done on the centerstand.. here's why I ask: it doesn't have one. The moron before me apparently got rid of it. He obviously was trying to make this bike something it isn't and here I am.. the noob dealing with the problems |
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April 15th, 2012, 12:51 PM | #17 |
ninjette.org member
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My buddy brought up the possibility of an electrical issue. He merely brought it up as a variable to this awful problem. Your guys' fuel starvation theory (for lack of a better word) seems more likely (which he did not dismiss) to me. But could it be a possibility as well?
P.S. I've posted this problem on numerous forums and Ninjette.org has BY FAR been the absolute best! I'm glad I came to the neighborhood. |
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April 15th, 2012, 12:57 PM | #18 | ||
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Quote:
Quote:
It might be something as simple as just changing the float height down a mm, but that's something for later. For now, just make sure the petcock is working right, and we'll work our way down the line of fuel delivery. |
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April 15th, 2012, 01:10 PM | #19 |
ninjette.org member
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Chris,
I put my school work in hold to check the petcock... It flows with self-applied vacuum. So let's cross that off. Next!! Lol You guys are awesome. If I was a grandma, I'd send you cookies.. lol |
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April 15th, 2012, 01:14 PM | #20 |
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I forgot add.. How do I know if the bowls are working properly? I assume that's the next step. It looks difficult to drain them with the carbs still on.
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April 15th, 2012, 01:16 PM | #21 |
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ugh, I don't need cookies. That would ruin my running/biking regimen...
The next thing I would do is try and raise the float height by 1mm and see if that helps to keep the fuel level in the carbs a little higher. But don't do that until we have more opinions voiced on this subject. There are others here with more experience with carbs than I. My reasoning on suggesting that is that if the deceleration is just enough to cause the fuel to not get delivered, and we know the petcock is delivering fuel, raising the level of the fuel in the carbs by 1mm might get continuous fuel delivery, even on deceleration. At least it wouldn't hurt anything to check the float height to be sure they're at the proper level. Normally I would automatically suggest a carb cleaning for a bike having, but that doesn't seem to be the case here. (unless it's having trouble idling/starting/small throttle inputs?) |
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April 15th, 2012, 01:18 PM | #22 | |
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Quote:
http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Draining_the_carbs |
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April 15th, 2012, 01:24 PM | #23 | ||
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Quote:
Quote:
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April 15th, 2012, 01:28 PM | #24 |
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Yeah Greg is good with fuel delivery stuff, but he's currently rocking a homebrew EFI system That's a whole new ball-field compared to us
The only reason I'm not confident in my suggestion for raising the float height 1mm is that I've only checked float height and re-jetted my bike; I've never actually fiddled with them besides reading about when they needed changed, and my bike never needed the float height changed so I didn't. |
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April 15th, 2012, 01:32 PM | #25 | |
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Quote:
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April 15th, 2012, 01:37 PM | #26 |
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One other thing Greg mentioned that I completely forgot about was the gas cap vent.
Open it up, leave it open. Go for a ride. Intentionally replicate the scenario where the bike shuts off, and see if you still have the shutting off issue when you decelerate. Sometimes the gas caps like to hold a vacuum. SIDE NOTE: faq.ninja250.org is an awesome place for information. ninjette.org is still a better site for talking to people about the instructions though |
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April 15th, 2012, 01:41 PM | #27 | |
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April 15th, 2012, 01:46 PM | #28 |
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In the cap somewhere. Never taken it apart. There's info on how to fix it somewhere here in the 08+ tech section, I read it a long time ago... search bar here I come!
Well, is there a road near you that you can rip up to 50 quick and replicate it with an open gas cap without being on the freeway and putting yourself in danger on the side of the road? |
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April 15th, 2012, 01:55 PM | #29 |
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Definitely check it with the gas cap open when you have the chance.
read through these threads as well. They sound like what you have happening: http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showt...t=gas+cap+vent http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showt...light=stalling http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showt...&highlight=cdi http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showt...&highlight=cdi even though they're all with 08+ bikes, it's practically the same bike... |
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April 15th, 2012, 02:32 PM | #30 | |
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Quote:
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April 15th, 2012, 04:48 PM | #31 |
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Several things caught my attention;
1.) No center stand 2.) Muzzy exhaust 3.) No airbox when you bought it, "No filters, not even pods. They left the boots from the front side of the air box on the back side of the carbs and put mesh on them to make a sad looking filter." 4.) cuts off after high revs 5.) hint that owner tried to make bike into something it is not 6.) it wasn't running right at all until you put the air box back in. By chance did the previous owner race the bike? And did he put in smaller or larger main jets? Too small main jets would prevent the bike from revving too much past 6k. 6k rpm in 6th gear is about 51 mph (indicated) w/ 14/45 sprockets. Too large of main jets would make it bog at high rpms and make the idle drop below it's set point. The engine also won't respond when the throttle is snapped open. Putting stock jets (#105) back in just to be sure probably would solve your problem or at least give you a good starting point going forward. #110 main jets would be the biggest I would put with a full Muzzy and airbox Just something to look into. |
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April 15th, 2012, 05:49 PM | #32 | |
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He's pointing out that you may not have a fuel starvation problem. Instead you may be suffering from too much fuel. If you and your mechanic friend re-installed a stock airbox without reversing/reducing any carb modifications (larger main jets, aftermarket needles or a bunch of washers under stock needles that has to be done to properly fuel an engine with a Muzzy and pod filters) then you may have a very simple case of an engine that is drowning in fuel (over-rich) under certain circumstances. If it is going way over-rich on decel from 50 or 60 mph it would behave the same as you've described in your initial post. It would put out it's own fire with too much fuel (anything lower than about 9.0/1 air/fuel ratio will snuff out an engine). After this happens there would probably be a period of time during which the engine is still too flooded to start (spark plugs very wet with fuel). After the fuel has had time to evaporate enough the bike would start back up again. Did you reduce the richness of the carb settings when you put the stock airbox back on the bike? An EX-250 with a Muzzy and Pod-Filters can handle a hell of a lot more fuel than one with a Muzzy and a stock airbox. |
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April 15th, 2012, 06:30 PM | #33 |
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Oh boy.... The news is that you guys are smart with this stuff. Bad news I'm not lol (Gotta laugh, right?)
We did not adjust any of the carb settings when they were off. As it was, it wasn't running right. It smelled rich (gas smell if I'm correct) & would bog out at times while idling. The consensus was that the air/fuel ratio wasn't right. So, with my non-expertise, I assumed the previous guy didn't didn't do the jet work and reinstalling an airbox would help. Since then, it doesn't smell rich and no longer bogs out as before. I figured I made the right call (maybe I didn't?). It definitely runs better, at least on neighborhood rides (30-40mph; 3rd & 4th gear). Even before the airbox we never took it on the main road so I can't make the equal comparison. I guess the questions are: 1. What would you do? And 2. How would I know if the jets were changed/how can you tell the size (or #)? |
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April 15th, 2012, 07:30 PM | #34 | |
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Quote:
Because jetting affects each bike differently, you will have to experiment with different settings now that you have an airbox, to see what works best. |
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April 15th, 2012, 07:34 PM | #35 |
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Well bummer, I completely missed the whole first post apparently...
To know what's in your carbs, you're going to have to take them apart again. On the bottom of each jet is a number. That's the size of the jets. |
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April 15th, 2012, 07:47 PM | #36 | |
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Quote:
Or should I pull the airbox, buy those (whatever #s they may be) jets andgo with pod filters? |
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April 15th, 2012, 07:49 PM | #37 |
ninjette.org member
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Thanks man. Starting to look like I'll be diving into these here soon. Should be quite the adventure for a rookie like myself.
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April 15th, 2012, 07:54 PM | #38 |
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It's not bad. Get a pair of 105 main jets, a pair of 108 main jets, a pair of 38 pilot jets, and a few washers for the needles. With a full exhaust and the stock intake, you'll likely be fine on the stock 105 mains, but 108's are definitely good to test while you're at it.
Jets here. |
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April 15th, 2012, 07:56 PM | #39 |
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If you were too rich you'll never get it started with the choke, you'll just make it worse. When you flood it you start it by winding the throttle open and trying to start it.
If your mixture was off enough to make a difference you'd know immediately because it'll run like a bag of ****. My guess is a vacuum leak causing the petcock to not be fully open at higher rpm. You can verify this by putting the petcock on prime and riding once you figure out how to replicate the issue. OR your float valves are gunked up not allowing enough flow at higher rpm, draining the bowls. Your floats are ok where they are because it runs EDIT: I read the first post again and your bowls wont fill by letting it sit, sounds like you actually are rich
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April 15th, 2012, 08:04 PM | #40 | |
ninjette.org member
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Quote:
I'll order the jets and get this going. It can't hurt. |
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