FI bike idling low when cold.

[Whiskey]

It's getting cold here & the bike seems to be idling quite low until it warms up, to the point that it cuts out occasionally if I'm not keeping it in check.

When it's cold it's idling at about 1k once it warms up a bit (to the second mark on the temp gauge) it's idling at about 1,750 RPM.

It's an FI bike so there is no manual choke.

Any ideas?

I really don't want to bring it to the local dealer (they're incompetent/fraudsters & I don't trust them at all)

[choneofakind]

Subscribed.

[Joshorilla]

Aren't all local dealers?

Mine does the opposite, it goes to over 2.2k then down to 2k/1.9k in about fifteen seconds then it will slowly go down to a nice 1.8k.

Unless it doesn't

Then it goes to 1.5k then up to a nice idle, but that's typically if it's been raining, so I guess the air filter is damp and a little bit restricted.

I don't think the Ninja 250r FI works well in the cold.

Possible solutions: "not good advice probably!"

* Replace lambda sensor ?
* Disconnect battery - it may reset the ecu if it's in some weird "i'm over lean and cold!" mode?

[DaBlue1]

I remember reading somewhere else about the FI Ninjas not being all that great with really cold start ups.

Some others had this issue last winter. Some real good advice in this thread. http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=95889

[Whiskey]

Originally Posted by Joshorilla

Aren't all local dealers?

Mine does the opposite, it goes to over 2.2k then down to 2k/1.9k in about fifteen seconds then it will slowly go down to a nice 1.8k.

Unless it doesn't

Then it goes to 1.5k then up to a nice idle, but that's typically if it's been raining, so I guess the air filter is damp and a little bit restricted.

I don't think the Ninja 250r FI works well in the cold.

Possible solutions: "not good advice probably!"

* Replace lambda sensor ?
* Disconnect battery - it may reset the ecu if it's in some weird "i'm over lean and cold!" mode?

I've had the battery out a couple of times, stuck it on a trickle charger, battery seems fine, holding at 12.8v & removing it hasn't made any difference.

The FI light should be coming on if there's an issue with the O2 sensor, 3 long flashes, 3 short flashes indicates it's the problem.

My local place is a main dealer & authorised service centre, but they're a sham & skipped bits of a service they charged for, causing the bike to fail its MOT. Kawasaki UK are quite unhappy about it, & I've slated J&S to anyone who'd listen (Including the regional manager of Yamaha, who also have them as a dealer)

Originally Posted by DaBlue1

I remember reading somewhere else about the FI Ninjas not being all that great with really cold start ups.

Some others had this issue last winter. Some real good advice in this thread. http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=95889

Seen that one, it's doing the same as @akima's bike did.

Originally Posted by akima

That's really good to know. I'm pretty sure something is wrong with my bike, because it starts out at ~1K and tries its best to work its way up. If it's particularly cold it will just conk out unless I quickly twist the throttle to ~4k

Even the double key on to increase the initial fuel dose & leave it for a few seconds hasn't seemed to work on it.

[DaBlue1]

How cold is it?
Does your bike sit outside?
What weight oil are you using (conventional or synthetic)?
These questions may seem irrelevant but a difference of 20-30 degrees can make a difference in how the gas vaporizes and oil flows, even though you have FI. Dense cold air can still have an affect even on FI vehicles.
I would blip the throttle, if I had FI, just like I do with carbs. The extra richness should warm up the engine a little faster The ECU should be able to compensate for throttle input correctly.

[Whiskey]

Originally Posted by DaBlue1

How cold is it?
Does your bike sit outside?
What weight oil are you using (conventional or synthetic)?
These questions may seem irrelevant but a difference of 20-30 degrees can make a difference in how the gas vaporizes and oil flows, even though you have FI. Dense cold air can still have an affect even on FI vehicles.
I would blip the throttle, if I had FI, just like I do with carbs. The extra richness should warm up the engine a little faster The ECU should be able to compensate for throttle input correctly.

Hovering around 0°c
Half the time, during the day it's indoors, overnight it's outside, it behaves the same in the morning & after work.

I assume 10W40 semi synthetic, last oil change was done when it was serviced (but I wouldn't be shocked if they used oil from the local takeaway, they are incompetent/fraudsters)

As long as the throttle is open it runs fine, when I close it off it goes to a very low idle, after a couple of miles it's back to normal.

Thinking if they botched the valve clarence & left them a little loose would it do this? Once the block heats up & expands they seat properly & the problem goes away...

Any merit to that idea?

[Somchai]

Morgan with your idea about the valves you're on the wrong way when they are NOT tight enough. This means they are noisy but they're also closing complete what's giving you the best compression (here i don't want to talk about the cam). But when they are too tight they can't close complete and the engine's losing its compression and yes then the engine runs very quiet.
In a FI-System the main point to look about is the ecu and the ecu is getting signals or tell it commands from the sensors what could mean maybe it's the sensor for the temperature?
Or maybe the fuel-filter or spark plugs, what i at least don't think because when warm she's running well as i understand?
Important is when you start here DON'T touch or turn the throttle and let her idle for maybe one minute before you start and also set up the idle at 1250 - 1300 rpm (this do only when the engine's really warm from riding).
Good luck.

[DaBlue1]

Originally Posted by Whiskey

....Thinking if they botched the valve clearance & left them a little loose would it do this? Once the block heats up & expands they seat properly & the problem goes away...

Any merit to that idea?

If they were loose out of spec, they would probably chatter a little louder than normal.

I did notice you said, "When it's cold it's idling at about 1k once it warms up a bit (to the second mark on the temp gauge) it's idling at about 1,750 RPM."
Have you tried to adjust the idle speed down to 1400 rpm when the engine is fully warm?
Is it possible the tach reading could be off? I think so. Mine was before it was replaced.
There is a way to check your rpms externally. You can use an inductive pickup clip accessory on a digital multimeter. The clip attaches to the spark plug wire. If the multimeter is good, it can be set up to convert electrical pulses into a rpm format. With this I believe you will be able to tell if there is a different reading between the tach and actual spark output. The trick would come in trying to mount the multimeter and take a reading while riding at speed. The dealer should be able to do the same. It's worth a look into.

The Inlet Air Temperature Sensor measures temps down to 0 celsius, so if it were bad (or any other sensor) it would code. I think your bike may just be reacting to cold temps as most vehicles do when temps are freezing. A couple of miles of riding to reach a good operating temp is not bad.

[akima]

Originally Posted by Whiskey

Hovering around 0°c
Half the time, during the day it's indoors, overnight it's outside, it behaves the same in the morning & after work.

I assume 10W40 semi synthetic, last oil change was done when it was serviced (but I wouldn't be shocked if they used oil from the local takeaway, they are incompetent/fraudsters)

As long as the throttle is open it runs fine, when I close it off it goes to a very low idle, after a couple of miles it's back to normal.

Thinking if they botched the valve clarence & left them a little loose would it do this? Once the block heats up & expands they seat properly & the problem goes away...

Any merit to that idea?

I too use semi synthetic oil too. I'd be curious to know what you use @Joshorilla.

I noticed that Josh has a 2012 ninjette whereas @Whiskey and myself both have pre-2012 bikes. Maybe Kawasaki patched the ECU firmware in 2012 to fix this issue?

I doubt this is a mechanical issue. One of our japanese ninjetters had the same issue but when he installed a powercommander he no longer had a problem. I suspect it's just a sub-par ECU mapping. Maybe the guy that made the mapping lived in a warm country!
* Akima looks outside at the snow and frowns

Originally Posted by DaBlue1

If they were loose out of spec, they would probably chatter a little louder than normal.

I did notice you said, "When it's cold it's idling at about 1k once it warms up a bit (to the second mark on the temp gauge) it's idling at about 1,750 RPM."
Have you tried to adjust the idle speed down to 1400 rpm when the engine is fully warm?
Is it possible the tach reading could be off?

I don't think so. I get the low tach reading too, but the engine really does sound like it's reving at that speed. You can hear it turning over much slower than normal.

[lgk]

most IAS measure lower than -10C, so that should not be an issue.

poor starts have to with the priming pulse.
the weak idle is due to the lean warmup map on the OEM ECU.

i never have used the power commander before so im not sure if the priming pulse can be altered, but it should be able to enrichen the warmup map.

[Whiskey]

Originally Posted by DaBlue1

If they were loose out of spec, they would probably chatter a little louder than normal.

I did notice you said, "When it's cold it's idling at about 1k once it warms up a bit (to the second mark on the temp gauge) it's idling at about 1,750 RPM."
Have you tried to adjust the idle speed down to 1400 rpm when the engine is fully warm?
Is it possible the tach reading could be off? I think so. Mine was before it was replaced.
There is a way to check your rpms externally. You can use an inductive pickup clip accessory on a digital multimeter. The clip attaches to the spark plug wire. If the multimeter is good, it can be set up to convert electrical pulses into a rpm format. With this I believe you will be able to tell if there is a different reading between the tach and actual spark output. The trick would come in trying to mount the multimeter and take a reading while riding at speed. The dealer should be able to do the same. It's worth a look into.

The Inlet Air Temperature Sensor measures temps down to 0 celsius, so if it were bad (or any other sensor) it would code. I think your bike may just be reacting to cold temps as most vehicles do when temps are freezing. A couple of miles of riding to reach a good operating temp is not bad.

I tried it, it didn't make a difference (both ways it struggles & cuts out if left to its own devices, I also dialed it up to 2k, again no difference when it's cold)

Same as Akima, going by ear the revs are quite low when it's cold, once it heats up it sounds faster & the tach matches it, so I say the tach's ok.

[Joshorilla]

Originally Posted by akima

I too use semi synthetic oil too. I'd be curious to know what you use @Joshorilla.

I noticed that Josh has a 2012 ninjette whereas @Whiskey and myself both have pre-2012 bikes. Maybe Kawasaki patched the ECU firmware in 2012 to fix this issue?

I doubt this is a mechanical issue. One of our japanese ninjetters had the same issue but when he installed a powercommander he no longer had a problem. I suspect it's just a sub-par ECU mapping. Maybe the guy that made the mapping lived in a warm country!
* Akima looks outside at the snow and frowns



I don't think so. I get the low tach reading too, but the engine really does sound like it's reving at that speed. You can hear it turning over much slower than normal.

I currlently have the kawi oil in, semi synth, i will upgrade before i get my bike running to full synth castrol racing stuff. My ecu deals with the cold by going over revs by default then down to normal in about 20 seconds. I will reprt back with more info when it is all fixed.

I will report back in when its running

[choneofakind]

Since it's running at a lower idle when it's cold, does that mean the warm up fuel is too rich or too lean? I ask because this is what my bike does as well with my aftermarket EFI. So, an answer to this question would help not only Whiskey, but myself as well.

[Somchai]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Since it's running at a lower idle when it's cold, does that mean the warm up fuel is too rich or too lean? I ask because this is what my bike does as well with my aftermarket EFI. So, an answer to this question would help not only Whiskey, but myself as well.

To answer your question, the setup is too lean when its running at lower idle.
What FI-Systems in cold conditions are doing is injecting more fuel while carbs are limiting the air inflow.

[Whiskey]

It must just be the cold, at a balmy 1°C this morning it fired up ok & the idle quickly climbed to 1700.

That or giving it 3 priming pulses did the trick

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by Somchai

To answer your question, the setup is too lean when its running at lower idle.

Well that's what I'm not sure about, because in my tuning info that came with my kit, it says adding air by turning out the air screws (leaning it) will raise the idle, which it does. So low idle suggests being too rich, while a dying idle suggests being too lean.

Originally Posted by Somchai

while carbs are limiting the air inflow.

False. The "choke" on the 250R is not a choke, it is a starting enricher. It adds more fuel. It does not cut off air flow in any way.

[lgk]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Well that's what I'm not sure about, because in my tuning info that came with my kit, it says adding air by turning out the air screws (leaning it) will raise the idle, which it does. So low idle suggests being too rich, while a dying idle suggests being too lean.

the idle is raised since the Manifold pressure sensor reads a decrease in vacuum and the ECU applies more fuel to maintain the a/f ratio thus raising the idle.

fuel enrichment(delivery) is controlled by the ecu alone. in our case idle speed is partly controlled by the ecu also since it controls the ignition too.

this is why wideband sensors and data logging is essential in tuning EFI equipment, it provides a method of confirming the ECU is right.

[choneofakind]

so whiskey and I would need more fuel to compensate for a low idle?

[lgk]

yes, i did it by editing the warmup values on procal, so as not to mess up the map after it heats up.

it starts as easy as a quick press of a button at as low as 20f(-7c)
i was going to roll it into a freezer to test it, but no one would let me, lol.

but i suspect the battery itself might end playing a role in long term sub zero(-20c) temps.


ETA:
my bike has a pod filter and thermo-bob, so my results may be a little different.