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Old August 13th, 2016, 10:38 AM   #1
Mjj
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Hard to Start, Rough Idle, Backfires...

My 2009 has not been operating well this season. I did the normal maintenance cycle in the spring (oil, filters, gas, adjustments, lube cables, ect). All seemed fine. Did install a new battery as the old battery was the original and it was just time.

A month or so back I started to notice that starting was becoming more of an issue. Needed more choke and with the choke engaged, it did not rev quite as high as normal.

One trip (20 miles total), the engine literally quit running while I was cranking down a street in 2nd or third gear. It was as if I had hit the kill switch. I pulled over and restarting was a real problem. Needed to go full choke on a warmed up engine. Kind of spooked me. At stops, I would engage the choke to keep the idle at 1500 otherwise it would die. This happened only that one time.

After that event, it just seems to run slightly rough. It has never died again, but remains harder to start. Also when idling I am noticing what sounds like small secondary backfires. Very subtle.

Finally the last odd thing is it experiences significant backfires on starting now. Not every time, but in past years I would say it would backfire a couple times a season. Now it has backfired a half dozen times. It is no longer a surprise.

I tried searching the forums as I recall reading something like this a while back. No joy.

BTW the engine is completely stock, no jetting. Factory exhaust. No air box mods. I use the bike as a "urban scooter" and so it goes on a half dozen short trips to the store or wherever every week. The odometer shows about 11K miles. I had the shop do a valve adjust and carb sync at 9000 miles or so. If I put on 1000 miles a season, that is about it. I take it out on occasional highway trips...because that is a lot of fun. Otherwise it lives tucked in the garage keeping company with the bicycles and lawn mower. Tough life.

I'm thinking it might be time to do a complete clean on the carbs. What do you think? Any advice is appreciated.

Thanks.

Last futzed with by Mjj; August 13th, 2016 at 10:49 AM. Reason: Additional info
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Old August 13th, 2016, 10:55 AM   #2
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It's not likely that two carbs would suddenly have a problem at the same time, causing both cylinders to quit while riding, so I wouldn't be inclined to blame them right away.

Some of your symptoms, like rough idle and having to keep the RPM up to prevent stalling could be related to valve adjustment. How many miles since the last adjustment?

I wonder if you have a fuel delivery problem causing the carbs to run out of gas at times. Like a petcock that isn't opening properly, or a tank vent that's blocked, etc.. I've had a motorcycle tank vent get blocked, and the bike ran fine, and then just stalled suddenly. If that's the problem, you'll know if you open the filler cap and it makes a hissing sound.
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Old August 13th, 2016, 11:02 AM   #3
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How many miles since the last adjustment?
Couple of years and 2000 miles.

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I wonder if you have a fuel delivery problem causing the carbs to run out of gas at times.
I replaced the petcock last year with a brand new piece. I was thinking venting at one point, but noticed the gas tank whines as it always has. How would I positively check the venting?
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Old August 13th, 2016, 11:28 AM   #4
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"Otherwise it lives tucked in the garage keeping company with the bicycles and lawn mower."

barring a delivery issue...stale fuel? The ethanol stuff sold these days being passed off as fuel can break down extremely quick.
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Old August 13th, 2016, 11:33 AM   #5
Mjj
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Stale Fuel: I go through a tank every 2 to three weeks. We do have the ethanol situation, but it was the same last year and the year before. Same miles per year, gas purchases, ect... In fact I usually fill it up at the same station.

I could add Stabil.
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Old August 13th, 2016, 11:39 AM   #6
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How would I positively check the venting?
As I said, open the tank cap and listen for hissing. After you've been running fast for a while, pull over, shut off the engine, and open the cap. If there's a vacuum inside, you should be able to tell.
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Old August 13th, 2016, 12:57 PM   #7
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I would check possible leaks in the vacuum hoses, as well as accumulated water in the tank and bowls of the carburetors.
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Old August 13th, 2016, 02:33 PM   #8
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After you've been running fast for a while, pull over, shut off the engine, and open the cap. If there's a vacuum inside, you should be able to tell.
No vacuum that I could discern

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check possible leaks in the vacuum hoses, as well as accumulated water in the tank and bowls of the carburetors
Bowls are easy to drain. Tank?? The only way to be sure is to remove and empty it. Ugh. I will inspect the vacuum hoses. I'll figure out how to do that. Hey, I'll have the cowlings and tank off. What could be easier.
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Old August 13th, 2016, 03:11 PM   #9
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...........Bowls are easy to drain. Tank?? The only way to be sure is to remove and empty it. Ugh. I will inspect the vacuum hoses. I'll figure out how to do that. Hey, I'll have the cowlings and tank off. What could be easier.
No need to remove the tank: turn the reserve on and ust disconnect the hose, or even simpler, let it drain enough fuel through the open bowls and collect the drained liquid in a glass container.

http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Draining_the_carbs

http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/How_far..._%22reserve%22

You will easily see water below the fuel, if the tank contains any.
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Old August 13th, 2016, 03:16 PM   #10
Mjj
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No need to remove the tank: turn the reserve on and ust disconnect the hose, or even simpler, let it drain enough fuel through the open bowls and collect the drained liquid in a glass container.
I can do that. No reserve...it's a new gen.

I was looking for a vacuum diagram. No luck yet, but I found one for a 2004, and I'd bet it is similar.
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Old August 14th, 2016, 02:43 AM   #11
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if this never happened before in your entire life , and you havent adjusted anything in the carb / intake side .



here is just my experience with backfiring or afterfiring when starting :

i had a radiator hose burst on my thermostat which flooded my spark plug wells , went home with only cylinder 1 working. tried starting 1 hour later and it would not it will just afterfire/backfire.

pulled the high tension wires , waited for the spark plug wells to dry (left the bike for 1 week) , tried starting the bike and i have no more afterfires/backfire but still bike wouldnt start .

next time i'll replace the spark plug.

the bike never had A SINGLE BACKFIRE before the spark plug wells was flooded with coolant .
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Old August 14th, 2016, 06:25 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mjj View Post
Stale Fuel: I go through a tank every 2 to three weeks. We do have the ethanol situation, but it was the same last year and the year before. Same miles per year, gas purchases, ect... In fact I usually fill it up at the same station.

I could add Stabil.
Still could be bad gas. I'd drain the tank and floatbowls completely before doing much else.

Cenex stations in my area have ethanol-free 87.

Adding Stabil, fresh gas, or anything else, to bad gas will not help.
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Old August 14th, 2016, 08:38 PM   #13
Mjj
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Thanks Jay....

I was running the bike today, briefly, and it worked great. I have decided to air it out a bit tomorrow morning and take it on a 75 mile run out to Jefferson and back. I'll spend a few minutes before I leave draining the bowls just to ease my mind. Let's see if that has a positive impact.

Regarding gas, I am stuck in the SE WI market and have only oxygenated fuel to choose from. Regular alcohol and exceptionally heavy alcohol. All bad choices. Think I'll fuel up in Jefferson and use some real gas for a change.

I was going to pull everything apart today, but got suckered into going to the WI State Fair. We had a great time. After tomorrow's ride, I'll probably take things apart and inspect the various hoses no matter how the ride turns out. I really enjoy that bike and it has earned a bit of 75 MPH extended time.

Thanks for all the suggestions. I've got enough to follow up on for the time being. I'll let you know what I find out.

Muchas gracias.
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Old August 15th, 2016, 01:35 PM   #14
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I use to commute on my 2012 ,250 ninja,4 to 6 gallons a week at 60 to 65 mpg's. had fuel problems off and on. draining the tank, draining float bowls, new spark plugs, never completely solved the rough running, or run on 1 cylinder. I used the fuel I drained in lawn mower, chainsaw,and weed wacker, no problems. local shop(ncy in san marcos ca ) recommended "Ethanol Shield" . I only use about 1 oz per month, way less than instructions on the bottle, have had 0.00 problems in the last 20000 miles. I have seen this sold at home depot's, and lowes. Good luck with your headache.
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Old August 15th, 2016, 03:32 PM   #15
Mjj
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Ride today went great. No issues at all.

arnvc: Good suggestion. I can do that. I can't hurt.

Thanks all.
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Old September 9th, 2016, 08:11 PM   #16
Mjj
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Solved

Interesting ride today. Hit a bump and the bike went....wacko. Had to pull over due to engine turn off. Gauges went crazy.

Seems the battery install in the spring was less than "per spec". Got home eventually and installed terminals per spec. What a weird nightmare.
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Old September 9th, 2016, 09:02 PM   #17
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Sounds like a wild ride indeed; Glad you got it sorted!
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