My turn

[soggybottom]

For riding shoes something I have found works great is a good set of leather cowboy boots. With rubber soles, and thick leather. They offer a great deal of protection, and you can still walk around normally in them. Some even have steel toes.

I've found these are more comfortable than work boots, and a lot less expensive than riding boots.

[n4mwd]

A guy at my local ABATE chapter said that when new motorcycle tires are made, they spray the inside of the mold with a silicone release agent. This makes it so that the rubber doesn't stick to the mold and will release the new tire properly. The problem is that they don't wash this off because it helps protect the rubber prior to sale. He said that after installing new tires to wipe them down with ethyl alcohol (not isopropyl) and that will remove the silicone. He said that new tires aren't trustworthy until they have at least 100 miles on them.

[Alex]

Don't believe everything you hear at ABATE meetings.

There are some good links in our thread below about motorcycle tire manufacturing and release agents. (cliffs notes: nobody has used them for years).

Scuffing tires in

[Motofool]

I did work at a car's tires factory and can tell that the silicone agent is a myth.

The rubber is vulcanized with steam inside highly polished steel molds that open in half after the cooking process finishes.

When that mold opens, the tire is smoking hot and dilated and basically jumps out of the mold as soon as it opens.

Later on, a person makes it rotate at high rpms' for testing and to cut all the "hair" off.
That hair is rubber that flowed into the many little holes of the mold that serve as vents for hot air and steam and also for compressed air that helps release the tire.

"The economically most important method (vulcanization of tires) uses high pressure and temperature. A typical vulcanization temperature for a passenger tire is 10 minutes at 170 °C. This type of vulcanization is called compression molding. The rubber article is intended to adopt the shape of the mold."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulcanization

The 100 miles rule is for full setting of the edges into the wheel.

[n4mwd]

The "haven't used mold release agents in hundreds of years" thing is really more of an urban legend I think. They absolutely must use something to keep the tire from sticking to the mold and ruining it. Its probably more like whatever they used to use, they are now using something different, better, less toxic, lower carbon footprint, etc. Maybe something that washes off with water?

From the shinko website:

Shinko recommends ... allowing the tire mold release agent applied during the manufacturing process to be worn off.

I also read that Michelin also uses it, but I think I heard that dunlop doesn't admit to it. I haven't found anything definitive from pirelli, but I do know the tire was slick.

[choneofakind]

Yeah, that dude was talking out of an orifice other than his mouth
Read post number 1: http://www.gixxer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176572

But he is right on one thing; riding cautiously for the first few miles (let's call it 50-100) and getting all the shiny part worn off before going hard on new tires is not going to hurt anything.

[Alex]

Read the thread in post 83, D, and click on the links. There's a guy from Pirelli describing how/why they don't use anything of the sort on the tread.

[n4mwd]

Here is an article on motorcycle tire manufacture. There is no specific mention about release agents, but there is mention that different companies use different manufacturing technologies.

So obviously, some people do use it and some don't.

EDIT:
Mold release agents used for motorcycle tires -
Dunlop - No
Michelin - Yes
Pirelli - No
Shinko - Yes
Bridgestone - ??? (dodged question).

In all cases, the manufacturers are recommending a 100 mile break in period.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

So obviously, some people do use it and some don't.

edit: self-awareness moment, I realized we were debating this in a crash thread. Let's continue this if needed in one of the tire threads as necessary.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by Alex

Read the thread in post 83, D, and click on the links. There's a guy from Pirelli describing how/why they don't use anything of the sort on the tread.

Went though some of it. One quote from pirelli said that they still use mold release on the sidewall. Other quotes from pirelli said they don't use it at all.

He also seems to be saying that the pirelli tire does not need a break-in period to be scuffed in, whereas other say it does.

In any case, it wasn't my imagination that the tire slipped out and I crashed. I know it was mostly my fault, but the road was totally clear, dry, and warm. And now that I have a few more miles on them, they definitely seem to be gripping a bit better.

[choneofakind]

Good. I was really wondering about that, because I've never had them feel as bad as you were saying they were. I was beginning to wonder if I had given you bad advice about using them...

How many miles do you have on them currently?

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Good. I was really wondering about that, because I've never had them feel as bad as you were saying they were. I was beginning to wonder if I had given you bad advice about using them...

How many miles do you have on them currently?

As of this minute, 276 miles.

Here is a copy of an email from Pirelli, in short, they deny using mold release:

Hello

Thanks for the question. There are common misconceptions about tires that never seem to go away and please note mold release is not used by Pirelli. But let us explain the tire break in details in the following method. The idea of the breaking in a new tire is as follows. First is that after the install the tire will move ever so slightly on the rim to seat itself in the first few miles. The break in procedure we suggest is somewhere between 3 corners of the first lap for a race tire on a race track to about 300 miles for a touring tire. Why? Well the extreme forces generated to the soft race compound tire by an expert rider will break in the tire in the first few corners of the race track. Then on the other end you we have a guy on a Harley riding on public roads at legal speeds gently scrubbing in the tires over the 300 or so miles of use. Now let's talk about scrubbing. When the tire is new the very sharp edges of the tread grooves combined with the tire's smooth surface GIVE the impression of a slippery tire, but that is not the case. This new tire is sensitive to the various bumps, grooves, holes of the pavement and this sensitivity is what most consumers think is the slippery feeling.

So as you can see the point of the breaking in tires is to help the you get used to a new (non-worn out) quicker and better handling tire at an easy pace and to knock off the sharp edges and scuff the tread blocks. We hope this helps answer your questions and ride safe.

US Pirelli Moto
www.us.pirellimoto.com
800 747-3554, prompt 2

But like I said, it wasn't just a slippery feeling that I'm concerned about. I actually went down. I noticed the tires felt a little different prior to the crash, but I wasn't concerned about "slippery". Obviously, I should have been more concerned than I was. I totally disagree with his last bolded statement I don't care who he is.

[choneofakind]

They suggest 300 miles? That's nuts. That's a butt-covering response from them.

Originally Posted by n4mwd

I totally disagree with his last bolded statement I don't care who he is.

Why? I'd agree with that. It's very important to get to know the profile of your new tire and see how it feels during turn-in, or during cornering, or hard braking, etc etc etc. All tires are different.

This goes back to a post I made earlier in this thread about being cautious whenever you make changes to your bike. Don't go hard until you know how it feels and how it reacts.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

They suggest 300 miles? That's nuts. That's a butt-covering response from them.

Why? I'd agree with that. It's very important to get to know the profile of your new tire and see how it feels during turn-in, or during cornering, or hard braking, etc etc etc. All tires are different.

This goes back to a post I made earlier in this thread about being cautious whenever you make changes to your bike. Don't go hard until you know how it feels and how it reacts.

They are saying that the break in is just to make YOU used to a different feeling tire. Other people are saying its to make the tire handle better. I'm with the latter. If the tire had actually felt slippery, I would have been a lot more cautious with them in corners.

I do agree that a rider needs to get used to the handling of new tires, but I don't agree that its the only reason for a break in period.

I say the tires are doing better now because today I did a 90 degree corner in my neighborhood at 30 mph with no problems. Ok, that's still less than 40, but that roundabout wasn't as sharp.

In any case, I've become so curve paranoid that its making me want to run out and buy a pair of motorcycle boots.

[BlueHairSar]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Might be a nice one, but it violates rule #1 above. Even the high end Jiggle boots don't list any width sizes. People have different sized feet. Both in length and width. The boot manufacturers all seem to think we all have razor thin feet. So far, I have never seen any motorcycle boot manufacturer list the width size. So for us bigger guys with big feet, it looks like it has to be sneakers.

I'll keep looking, but most of the motorcycle shops in this area cater to the cruiser crowd. Those boots look more decorative than anything. Probably not much better than sneakers.

And yes, like I said before, you can injure your feet just as fast by wearing poor fitting footwear.

I have wide feet with a REALLY high arch, so finding shoes in general is bloody miserable for me. I'm a chick so if might be different, but I found A* useless for me, but my Dianese's (Woman's Avant boots) fit me perfectly.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

In any case, I've become so curve paranoid

That's a good thing to be a little respect for curves never hurt anyone.

Be as smooth as possible. You'd be amazed how much faster you get and how much less stressful it is to go fast when you're smooth. Smooth transitions, smooth turn it, get your weight set up before the turn, not as you're turning in.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

.......They absolutely must use something to keep the tire from sticking to the mold and ruining it..........

Rubber does not stick to a polished steel mold, ever.
Posters in those links keep assuming that, but it is far from true.

They mix the virgin rubber and graphite and everything else in a mixer made of steel, and you can see that rubber doesn't stick to any part (just like oil over a wet surface).

Then, several layers of cords and textile are "painted with that soft rubber" and assembled one over the other and wrapped to the wire rims.

That is what goes into the steam press or mold, which is hot and have just released the previous tire; not spraying or brushing of any mysterious substance.

[BlueHairSar]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

a little respect for curves never hurt anyone.

Awww yea.

... we really need a hot chick yellow ball smiley thing.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

That's a good thing to be a little respect for curves never hurt anyone.

Unless you are trying to have fun. Poking around corners? I might as well buy a set of earplugs and ride a Harley.

Actually, I am always looking for an excuse to ride the Ninjette - funny tires or not. Even a broken rearset and dangling peg didn't stop me from riding it out of there. Even lame, I still replaced the rearset and rode the bike home inside of two hours. That is, I treated my bikes condition and rode it safely home before I put the first bandage on myself. You have to be a serious Ninja addict to do something like that. Ok, home is where I keep the bandages, but that is beside the point.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Unless you are trying to have fun. Poking around corners?

No no, I never even suggested that. I didn't say slow. I said respect them. That means be aware of your limits. Be smooth and precise through the corner, don't be cocky and reckless.

For example, I used to push too hard and not respect the corners. I pushed right up to my limit; I went as fast as I could and I had some butt-puckering moments because of it. Then I started working on being fluid and smooth. I worked on body positioning. I'm by no means a pro, but when I'm fluid and controlled, the corners always go faster, without being up on my limits. That's what I mean by respecting the corners.

But you really should wear earplugs. The wind noise is a constant high dB roar that can ruin your hearing from long term exposure. There's times I come back from even a bicycle ride with ringing ears.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

No no, I never even suggested that. I didn't say slow. I said respect them. That means be aware of your limits. Be smooth and precise through the corner, don't be cocky and reckless.

For example, I used to push too hard and not respect the corners. I pushed right up to my limit; I went as fast as I could and I had some butt-puckering moments because of it. Then I started working on being fluid and smooth. I worked on body positioning. I'm by no means a pro, but when I'm fluid and controlled, the corners always go faster, without being up on my limits. That's what I mean by respecting the corners.

But you really should wear earplugs. The wind noise is a constant high dB roar that can ruin your hearing from long term exposure. There's times I come back from even a bicycle ride with ringing ears.

Well, that and I was just going too fast. Roundabouts are a lot harder to get through than they look. If it was just one curve, then they wouldn't be all that bad, but in this case, I had to throw all my weight right, then left, then right again - all in the span of less than two seconds. I made the first right turn OK, but then over taxed my front tire on the left turn (which didn't hold).
Anyhow, I wont be doing 40 through there for a while.

I tried earplugs one time. They totally mess me up. I couldn't even start the bike with them in. I got about a mile away before I had to pull over and take them out. I was so disoriented I couldn't keep the bike in a straight line. Maybe some day I'll hit the lottery and buy one of those $1500 low noise helmets. Besides, its really hard to hear where all the traffic is when you can't hear anything.

[choneofakind]

Oh, I know. We have one tight roundabout that says 15 mph suggested. It's not kidding.

Huh, I love riding in earplugs. No wind, all engine, but I can still pick out cars and sirens and horns fine

[BlueHairSar]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

No no, I never even suggested that. I didn't say slow. I said respect them. That means be aware of your limits. Be smooth and precise through the corner, don't be cocky and reckless.

For example, I used to push too hard and not respect the corners. I pushed right up to my limit; I went as fast as I could and I had some butt-puckering moments because of it. Then I started working on being fluid and smooth. I worked on body positioning. I'm by no means a pro, but when I'm fluid and controlled, the corners always go faster, without being up on my limits. That's what I mean by respecting the corners.

except for the "butt-puckering" part. Ew.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by BlueHairSar

except for the "butt-puckering" part. Ew.

Hey, don't hate it till you try it

[choneofakind]

Here's a video of carrying speed and respecting turns without being dumb and going above your limits.

Link to original page on YouTube.

This road is a 30 mph speed limit. I can very easily carry 45-50 in 3rd or 4th through this road. I have even ripped it up to 70 or so in the past (remember I talked about riding over my head?)

Now, I make it a challenge to keep it in 3rd the whole time and not touch the brakes. This forces me to set up each turn with my line and speed through the previous one, without ripping too fast on the straights. I also challenge myself to work on knee-to-knee with my BP while at this slower speed. This allows me to keep a sane speed and still work on my BP and lines and looking through turns.

I'll get a video of my 3rd gear challenge later in the spring when I have my tail camera set up to show you how helpful it can be.

Note: still much faster than a cruiser could take it through here. I've had guys on cruisers pull over and wave me by with a big grin before because they were dragging pipes and I was feeling bored.

[n4mwd]

You have some of the best roads up there.

[choneofakind]

Nah, that one's nice and short. But it's always fun for at least a few loops of fun time

You have to head south to really get any significant length of twisty roads.

[n4mwd]

I was thinking about going to the dragon, but I don't know if I can ride that far with my shoulder messed up. Maybe later.

[BlueHairSar]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Well, that and I was just going too fast. Roundabouts are a lot harder to get through than they look. If it was just one curve, then they wouldn't be all that bad, but in this case, I had to throw all my weight right, then left, then right again - all in the span of less than two seconds. I made the first right turn OK, but then over taxed my front tire on the left turn (which didn't hold).
Anyhow, I wont be doing 40 through there for a while.

You gotta think of them as an "s" curve (at least if you're going straight gayly forward) Inside, outside, inside.

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Hey, don't hate it till you try it

I think I'm just gonna take your word on that one...

[ChrisCusi]

If you're still looking for a boot/shoe that offers good protection and is comfortable enough to walk around with I'd suggest the Speed & Strength Moment of Truth's.

http://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/s...of-truth-shoes

Sturdy, quality, have held up so far for me, and I've had them on all day. They were slightly uncomfortable at the ankle at first because it locks them in pretty well, but after breaking them in... all day comfort. Obviously not like a tennis shoe, but you have to give and take.

The local shops and dealerships around here stock them too, hopefully you can try them on. US sizing.

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by ChrisCusi

If you're still looking for a boot/shoe that offers good protection and is comfortable enough to walk around with I'd suggest the Speed & Strength Moment of Truth's.

http://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/s...of-truth-shoes

Expensive sneaker you got there. A paper napkin used as a condom would provide more protection

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by ChrisCusi

If you're still looking for a boot/shoe that offers good protection and is comfortable enough to walk around with I'd suggest the Speed & Strength Moment of Truth's.

http://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/s...of-truth-shoes

That looks like one that I actually tried on, but the one I had used lacing which is hidden under the velcro flap. I won't wear anything with laces on a motorcycle. But I suppose I could just rip them out and just use the velcro flap.

They aren't that much more than a new pair of sneakers.

The regular boots tend to use zippers which offer good closure, but I didn't see any that had any kind of adjustment.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by BlueHairSar

You gotta think of them as an "s" curve (at least if you're going straight gayly forward) Inside, outside, inside.

I suppose you could think of it as an S-turn, but this particular one was only a 35' radius. Its too big just to do a weave and too small to be able to react fast enough to get through at 40 mph.

The suggested speed sign said 15 mph. That usually means that double (30 mph) is plenty slow enough for motorcycles. But I was going faster than that.

The math:

The distance to traverse a 35' radius semicircle roundabout = 110'
1st right = left = 2nd right = 36' each
Speed: 40 mph = 58 feet per second
Time for trip: 1.9 seconds
Time for each turn: 0.63 seconds

Its not impossible, you just have to be on top of your game. Unfortunately, I wasn't that day.

[ChrisCusi]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

Expensive sneaker you got there. A paper napkin used as a condom would provide more protection

Very cute.

To OP - I sorta thought the same thing from seeing them online. You really should see them in person.

[alex.s]

[pomartin]

Originally Posted by ChrisCusi

If you're still looking for a boot/shoe that offers good protection and is comfortable enough to walk around with I'd suggest the Speed & Strength Moment of Truth's.

http://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/s...of-truth-shoes

Sturdy, quality, have held up so far for me, and I've had them on all day. They were slightly uncomfortable at the ankle at first because it locks them in pretty well, but after breaking them in... all day comfort. Obviously not like a tennis shoe, but you have to give and take.

The local shops and dealerships around here stock them too, hopefully you can try them on. US sizing.

U should try this one out.. extremly comfy
http://www.kratzmc.com/wp-content/up...8/06/577_2.jpg

[ChrisCusi]

Originally Posted by pomartin

U should try this one out.. extremly comfy
http://www.kratzmc.com/wp-content/up...8/06/577_2.jpg

Haha I wouldn't expect to see anything else here...