Gas mileage poll for the new 300 - Page 3

Surferboy120 · October 9th, 2012, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiggles

Same bike different day, temperature difference of 5 degrees.

So you're telling me the 5 degree difference killed off 5hp? Das crazy mang

Also, I'd be very surprised if the ECU was capable of such acute changes without an O2 sensor. How exactly would it know?

It depends on how the FI setup is on the bike. Cars do use O2 and Map or Maf for correct AF ratios so if the bike doesn't have an O2 then it must being using a MAF or MAP sensor plus IAT sensor, throttle position, and then the short and long term trims are just calculations from that data. The O2 on the bike is primarily for emissions reasons on the stock ECU to ensure good old 14.7:1 stoichiometric AFR that yields the most complete combustion and thus minimum emissions. The real point is that the ECU doesn't require an O2 sensor to manage AF.

One of the things I am very eager to find out from Area P is what we will actually get to control with the ECU management as I plan to learn and tune my bike as well. I am hopeful this forum will have a specific area for tuning information since it looks like there willbe several company's that provide ECU management. I think it will be important to understand what each offers and how we may benefit from that. of course this is all within the limitations of the bike itself. I come from being able to manage cam angles by rpm, and telling the engine when to go from low to high cam. This bike will be severely limited I am sure but still a hoot to tune.

People think you loose so much control with tuning once you go FI but they actually gain more control and more importantly data to manage their tunes.

Jiggles · October 9th, 2012, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Surferboy120

The real point is that the ECU doesn't require an O2 sensor to manage AF.

I don't believe that's true, and even if it was possible I don't think a stock ECU would be that sophisticated as to make changes based on information it has received

Surferboy120 · October 9th, 2012, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiggles

I don't believe that's true, and even if it was possible I don't think a stock ECU would be that sophisticated as to make changes based on information it has received

LOL go google it then you will learn a lot of neat stuff. It's all just calculations from sensor inputs and a base map.

Jiggles · October 9th, 2012, 08:08 PM

Yea it can adjust to air temp, that's about it. It can't adjust to octane ratings or lean/rich conditions without information about it

choneofakind · October 9th, 2012, 08:38 PM

As long as the system has a way of sensing temp/pressure changes, it will be pretty good. For example, your ninja 650 ran fine right? Those don't have O2 sensors.

Surferboy120 · October 9th, 2012, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiggles

Yea it can adjust to air temp, that's about it. It can't adjust to octane ratings or lean/rich conditions without information about it

False

And adjust for altitude using map or Maf
And TPS ( throttle position)
And IAT ( intake temp sensor)
And......all of these thing directly affect the AF.

The stock ECU has static tables setup with target AFs
Without an O2 then it's all based off preset kal rather than getting to use the O2 to be able to adjust the kal based off target AF.
So what this means is that the ECU has boundaries on the calculations it can do to meet a target AF but it can still adjust the AF or lean rich conditions using other sensors besides the O2.

Why do you think guys would rather ride Pikes Peak with FI rather than being carburated?

Boom King · October 9th, 2012, 09:43 PM

Wouldn't any probable power gains of running higher octane be dependant on whether or not Kawasaki programmed in ignition advance limits?

Jiggles · October 9th, 2012, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Surferboy120

False

And adjust for altitude using map or Maf
And TPS ( throttle position)
And IAT ( intake temp sensor)
And......all of these thing directly affect the AF.

The stock ECU has static tables setup with target AFs
Without an O2 then it's all based off preset kal rather than getting to use the O2 to be able to adjust the kal based off target AF.
So what this means is that the ECU has boundaries on the calculations it can do to meet a target AF but it can still adjust the AF or lean rich conditions using other sensors besides the O2.

Why do you think guys would rather ride Pikes Peak with FI rather than being carburated?

It's still just an educated guess though. It could be running a 16.0 AFR and have no idea and not adjust. It's simply working off of, mainly, the temperature.

And how does this correlate to your bike running better with 93? It doesn't.

Surferboy120 · October 10th, 2012, 05:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boom King

Wouldn't any probable power gains of running higher octane be dependant on whether or not Kawasaki programmed in ignition advance limits?

Yes absolutely all of this is based off the initial map they put together plus the compensation tables values they imputed.

Example intake air temps since jiggles likes that one. In the map there is a IAT compensation table which represents a range of temps. This ensures the bikes runs good from -20 to 120F if those are the values put in. So yes kawasaki would optimize the tune for the best environment and fuel of their choosing which in this case could be 87 octane. The point is that the tune deals with changes from inputs whether it is fueling or IATs, .....

When we get a either piggy back ECU or a replacement one which is programmable we would optimize it for our fuel environment variables. So in the case of temps I would say hey I am in Texas and would narrow my -20F temp for the bottom of the scale to be 0F so when the ECU calculates the Result willbe a closer one. The down side of this is as you narrow the scope of a tune you also have to potentially adjust it more as well to maintain the up in power you have gained like changing jets and such but it's just updating a map or having a few maps for the different times of year. The O2 is must have in my book.

Surferboy120 · October 10th, 2012, 05:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiggles

It's still just an educated guess though. It could be running a 16.0 AFR and have no idea and not adjust. It's simply working off of, mainly, the temperature.

And how does this correlate to your bike running better with 93? It doesn't.

As far as the inputs being used to calculate yes it is a guess as I am not familiar with the ECU inputs to be available for the 300 or your 1000 and I never said the 93 would run better, worse, or nothing.

I said the ECU will compensate for 93 with no ill affects and I also said it could gain, loose, or having nothing as results in power or mileage since all of that is dependent on the input variables being used by the ECU.

My point to all of this is that the ECU is equipped to handle 87-93+? Octane no problem. A carbed setup is not as blessed in that regard since it has no inputs\logic or does any calculations to make determinations with.

Fappy · October 10th, 2012, 07:10 AM

Many modern performance vehicles are more than capable of sensing the octane rating of supplied fuel, and usually are able to take advantage of higher-octane gasoline by advancing the spark timing and so forth. The end result is more power.

I'm not sure if the new Ninjette has this capability, but it's really not far-fetched...and by the way, FI works just fine without needing to be in closed-loop with an O2 sensor.. I know this first hand from my car, when the rear O2s stopped functioning. Worst thing that happened was that it idled slightly lower.

Like Thomas said, the ECU calculates its input fuel amounts based on its almanac of data maps and using the temperature and throttle position; which, in most cases, lets the engine combust the fuel/air at "close enough" to the ideal stoichiometric ratio.

Surferboy120 · October 10th, 2012, 07:50 AM

May need to start a new thread in regards to ECU management and all the different brands that will surely come but I thought the below was interesting and related to how the ECU can use these inputs.

The 300 49 state version seems to have the following that "should" be used by the ECU as inputs.

After reviewing the parts diagram.
IATs - intake air temps
VSS - variable speed sensor
Manifold pressure
TPS - throttle position sensor seems to be part of throttle body sold as a unit but I will have to visually check my bike since there was another sensor there not labeled but TPS seems logical.

I also saw something new to me which was a Damper ECU? Not sure what that is.....

Anyway I hope some of this is helpful and will start a different thread at some point since this thread is about gas mileage and I think we have gone a little off course.

Boom King · October 10th, 2012, 01:03 PM

So are there knock sensors in these bikes to adjust the ignition timing if the ECU allows?

Surferboy120 · October 10th, 2012, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boom King

So are there knock sensors in these bikes to adjust the ignition timing if the ECU allows?

I looked but didn't see one but wow wouldn't that be sweet to have lean and knock protection on a bike.

Boom King · October 10th, 2012, 03:32 PM

Ya I guess maybe they're not as practical in sportbikes probably due to the engine noise these things make.

Alex · October 14th, 2012, 10:46 PM

45 mpg today, on a ride up and over Mt. Hamilton. It's evidently slightly better when I'm not chasing/being chased by Jason.

tnr4 · October 15th, 2012, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex

45 mpg today, on a ride up and over Mt. Hamilton. It's evidently slightly better when I'm not chasing/being chased by Jason.

Man, you must thrash that thing. After two tanks in the 50s, I just filled up and got 61mpg. And that's on a tank that was half stop-n-go commuting, and half winding it out in the country. For folks wanting to keep tabs on mileage, I plan to record every fill-up on fuelly. My dashboard is here: https://www.fuelly.com/driver/tnr4/ninja-300

00NissanNinja · October 17th, 2012, 01:35 PM

I was gonna get a 300 to have better gas mileage, power, and fun. But, my 250 with a full system gets around 55 mpg consistently with no babying. Drops down to about high 40s on a track day.

tnr4 · October 17th, 2012, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 00NissanNinja

I was gonna get a 300 to have better gas mileage, power, and fun. But, my 250 with a full system gets around 55 mpg consistently with no babying. Drops down to about high 40s on a track day.

Yeah, you certainly don't need the 300 for mileage, then. My impression is that I will need to really concentrate on mileage to get much better than that. My highest tank so far has been 61, and that was without babying it, but it also included a fair amount of flat cruising. I'm sure the 70s are feasible if that's your aim, but it's not mine, so I imagine 50s will be the norm.

00NissanNinja · October 17th, 2012, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tnr4

Yeah, you certainly don't need the 300 for mileage, then. My impression is that I will need to really concentrate on mileage to get much better than that. My highest tank so far has been 61, and that was without babying it, but it also included a fair amount of flat cruising. I'm sure the 70s are feasible if that's your aim, but it's not mine, so I imagine 50s will be the norm.

I was expecting with some mixed riding and redline trips it would consistently get around 65s. But yeah, I don't really bother trying to get the best mileage its just a little added bonus to have as much fun as you want and still get some good mileage out of it.

Byakkotai · October 17th, 2012, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tnr4

Man, you must thrash that thing. After two tanks in the 50s, I just filled up and got 61mpg. And that's on a tank that was half stop-n-go commuting, and half winding it out in the country. For folks wanting to keep tabs on mileage, I plan to record every fill-up on fuelly. My dashboard is here: https://www.fuelly.com/driver/tnr4/ninja-300

Nice fuel tracker

I'm getting around 55 mpg - mostly in town (stop-n-go/slow speed stuff, 95% of riding) and some not twisty at all local backroads. Easy on the revs, eco usually on. Hrmmm...

Alex · October 17th, 2012, 03:15 PM

My experience has been that motorcycles tend to get much better mileage when at higher elevation. Not sure where your local riding takes you in Colorado, but I would assume that you're a little bit closer to extraterrestrial life than we are, and that would help average mileage numbers over time.

00NissanNinja · October 17th, 2012, 03:48 PM

True altitude does play a part in the fuel economy, also end up losing a bit of power too because of the altitude. Just didn't think it would give me so much better fuel economy.

Old Guy on a '08 · October 18th, 2012, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Surferboy120

I guess I am what I eat.

Aways had a hankering for "fish tacos"

ricochet08 · October 19th, 2012, 11:26 AM

got 62 on my last fill up

Alex · October 21st, 2012, 01:18 PM

Last two tanks: 38 mpg, then 46 mpg.

choneofakind · October 21st, 2012, 02:06 PM

Alex, I think you should also post up some numbers once Annie starts riding it. You might just be the most throttle-happy rider in our little pole

tnr4 · October 21st, 2012, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Alex, I think you should also post up some numbers once Annie starts riding it. You might just be the most throttle-happy rider in our little pole

Seriously dude! I feel guilty for what I'm putting my baby through, and I haven't dropped below 50. 38!!!

I just spent a whole day out in the country, stopping regularly to practice launches, and redlining the bejessus out of 'er on the 0-60 runs. I'll see what this tank is like, but the gauge is dropping at the same rate as usual. So I just don't know what you do to that thing, lol.

Alex · October 21st, 2012, 08:01 PM

I'm not very aerodynamic.

kooshbox · October 23rd, 2012, 04:21 PM

Got another identical 61 MPG today. About to do my break-in service!

Old Guy on a '08 · October 23rd, 2012, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex

I'm not very aerodynamic.

You look very aerodynamic in you Avatar...

Byakkotai · October 29th, 2012, 01:29 PM

The quietness in here is chilling oooo.

Last fill-up got 67 mpg, don't know if I can beat that on the next fill up

GreenNinja · October 29th, 2012, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byakkotai

The quietness in here is chilling oooo.

Last fill-up got 67 mpg, don't know if I can beat that on the next fill up

Is that highway miles?

kooshbox · October 29th, 2012, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreenNinja

Is that highway miles?

Yesterday's fillup was 67 MPG. 7/8 highway.

Surferboy120 · October 29th, 2012, 06:43 PM

Got 51 last fillup since putting on my Roso IIs he he he

Alex · October 29th, 2012, 06:45 PM

Next goal is into the 40's, Thomas!

Surferboy120 · October 29th, 2012, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex

Next goal is into the 40's, Thomas!

I bet high 40s are there but I need to find some hills or get on a track. Lol!!

What a joy this bike is. I can't wait to get a full exhaust on this thing. It's damned near the perfect bike for my needs. I love being able to use all of it so much yet it's still comfy minus the still hard seat lol.

Byakkotai · October 29th, 2012, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreenNinja

Is that highway miles?

Sideroads - constant high speeds in the higher gears (about 70% of riding). Speed limit around town is 45mph+, less traffic in the morning on weekends, eco always on (rpms down low). No hwy miles whatsoever. Don't know if my featherweight has anything to do with it...

GreenNinja · October 30th, 2012, 05:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byakkotai

Sideroads - constant high speeds in the higher gears (about 70% of riding). Speed limit around town is 45mph+, less traffic in the morning on weekends, eco always on (rpms down low). No hwy miles whatsoever. Don't know if my featherweight has anything to do with it...

That is actually better than my 250. I was getting 58 in the city on stock gearing.

Old Guy on a '08 · November 18th, 2012, 08:51 AM

What??? All you 300 riders quite riding in November?

View Poll Results: Average fuel economy on your Ninja 300?
less than 20 mpg	1	1.75%
21 mpg - 30 mpg	1	1.75%
31 mpg - 40 mpg	0	0%
41 mpg - 50 mpg	13	22.81%
51 mpg - 60 mpg	24	42.11%
61 mpg - 70 mpg	12	21.05%
71 mpg - 80 mpg	3	5.26%
81 mpg - 90 mpg	0	0%
91 mpg - 100 mpg	1	1.75%
more than 100 mpg	2	3.51%
Voters: 57. You may not vote on this poll

October 9th, 2012, 08:08 PM	#84
Jiggles Jigglin' your Jiglets Name: Sean Location: San Jose, Ca Join Date: Jun 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2009 K1300S, 2013 Ninja 300, 2011 Ninja 250R, Faster than Unregistered's ninjette Posts: Too much. Blog Entries: 1 MOTM - Apr '13	Yea it can adjust to air temp, that's about it. It can't adjust to octane ratings or lean/rich conditions without information about it __________________________________________________ If the Ninja 250 doesn't have enough power for you, then you don't know how to ride it. AFM #676 Supersports are for n00bs

October 14th, 2012, 10:46 PM	#96
Alex ninjette.org dude Name: 1 guess :-) Location: SF Bay Area Join Date: Jun 2008 Motorcycle(s): '13 Ninja 300 (white, the fastest color!), '13 R1200RT, '14 CRF250L, '12 TT-R125LE Posts: Too much. Blog Entries: 7	45 mpg today, on a ride up and over Mt. Hamilton. It's evidently slightly better when I'm not chasing/being chased by Jason. __________________________________________________ Montgomery Street Motorcycle Club / cal24.com / crf250l.org / ninjette.org ninjette.org Terms of Service Shopping for motorcycle parts or equipment? Come here first. The friendliest Ninja 250R/300/400 forum on the internet! (especially Unregistered)

October 17th, 2012, 01:35 PM	#98
00NissanNinja I hate driving... Name: S Location: SW Ohio Join Date: Jul 2010 Motorcycle(s): 13 Triumph Street Triple R, 09 Ninja 250r (Sold 4/20/12) Posts: A lot.	I was gonna get a 300 to have better gas mileage, power, and fun. But, my 250 with a full system gets around 55 mpg consistently with no babying. Drops down to about high 40s on a track day. __________________________________________________ 09 ninja 2fiddy SE Driving slow things fast

October 17th, 2012, 03:15 PM	#102
Alex ninjette.org dude Name: 1 guess :-) Location: SF Bay Area Join Date: Jun 2008 Motorcycle(s): '13 Ninja 300 (white, the fastest color!), '13 R1200RT, '14 CRF250L, '12 TT-R125LE Posts: Too much. Blog Entries: 7	My experience has been that motorcycles tend to get much better mileage when at higher elevation. Not sure where your local riding takes you in Colorado, but I would assume that you're a little bit closer to extraterrestrial life than we are, and that would help average mileage numbers over time. __________________________________________________ Montgomery Street Motorcycle Club / cal24.com / crf250l.org / ninjette.org ninjette.org Terms of Service Shopping for motorcycle parts or equipment? Come here first. The friendliest Ninja 250R/300/400 forum on the internet! (especially Unregistered)

October 9th, 2012, 08:38 PM	#85
choneofakind ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: . Location: . Join Date: Feb 2011 Motorcycle(s): . Posts: Too much. MOTM - Feb '13, Feb '14	As long as the system has a way of sensing temp/pressure changes, it will be pretty good. For example, your ninja 650 ran fine right? Those don't have O2 sensors.

October 9th, 2012, 09:43 PM	#87
Boom King So, where's the reverse? Name: Anson Location: Ontario, Canada Join Date: Nov 2010 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Kawasaki Ninja 250R Posts: A lot.	Wouldn't any probable power gains of running higher octane be dependant on whether or not Kawasaki programmed in ignition advance limits?

October 10th, 2012, 07:10 AM	#91
Fappy ninjette.org guru Name: Stephen Location: Philadelphia, PA Join Date: Aug 2012 Motorcycle(s): 2007 Ninja 650R, 2008 Ninja 250R (sold) Posts: 263	Many modern performance vehicles are more than capable of sensing the octane rating of supplied fuel, and usually are able to take advantage of higher-octane gasoline by advancing the spark timing and so forth. The end result is more power. I'm not sure if the new Ninjette has this capability, but it's really not far-fetched...and by the way, FI works just fine without needing to be in closed-loop with an O2 sensor.. I know this first hand from my car, when the rear O2s stopped functioning. Worst thing that happened was that it idled slightly lower. Like Thomas said, the ECU calculates its input fuel amounts based on its almanac of data maps and using the temperature and throttle position; which, in most cases, lets the engine combust the fuel/air at "close enough" to the ideal stoichiometric ratio.

October 10th, 2012, 07:50 AM	#92
Surferboy120 Finding some curves.... Name: Thomas Location: Hurst,Texas Join Date: Sep 2012 Motorcycle(s): 2013 300 Ninja Posts: 268	May need to start a new thread in regards to ECU management and all the different brands that will surely come but I thought the below was interesting and related to how the ECU can use these inputs. The 300 49 state version seems to have the following that "should" be used by the ECU as inputs. After reviewing the parts diagram. IATs - intake air temps VSS - variable speed sensor Manifold pressure TPS - throttle position sensor seems to be part of throttle body sold as a unit but I will have to visually check my bike since there was another sensor there not labeled but TPS seems logical. I also saw something new to me which was a Damper ECU? Not sure what that is..... Anyway I hope some of this is helpful and will start a different thread at some point since this thread is about gas mileage and I think we have gone a little off course.

October 10th, 2012, 01:03 PM	#93
Boom King So, where's the reverse? Name: Anson Location: Ontario, Canada Join Date: Nov 2010 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Kawasaki Ninja 250R Posts: A lot.	So are there knock sensors in these bikes to adjust the ignition timing if the ECU allows?

October 10th, 2012, 03:32 PM	#95
Boom King So, where's the reverse? Name: Anson Location: Ontario, Canada Join Date: Nov 2010 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Kawasaki Ninja 250R Posts: A lot.	Ya I guess maybe they're not as practical in sportbikes probably due to the engine noise these things make.

October 17th, 2012, 03:48 PM	#103
00NissanNinja I hate driving... Name: S Location: SW Ohio Join Date: Jul 2010 Motorcycle(s): 13 Triumph Street Triple R, 09 Ninja 250r (Sold 4/20/12) Posts: A lot.	True altitude does play a part in the fuel economy, also end up losing a bit of power too because of the altitude. Just didn't think it would give me so much better fuel economy. __________________________________________________ 09 ninja 2fiddy SE Driving slow things fast Last futzed with by 00NissanNinja; October 18th, 2012 at 11:15 PM.

October 19th, 2012, 11:26 AM	#105
ricochet08 ninjette.org guru Name: Ross Location: St. Louis Join Date: Aug 2010 Motorcycle(s): 2007 ninja ex500, 2010 Ninja 250r, 2004 zzr600, 2003 CBR600rr, 2013 Ninja 300...in that order :D Posts: 266	got 62 on my last fill up

October 21st, 2012, 01:18 PM	#106
Alex ninjette.org dude Name: 1 guess :-) Location: SF Bay Area Join Date: Jun 2008 Motorcycle(s): '13 Ninja 300 (white, the fastest color!), '13 R1200RT, '14 CRF250L, '12 TT-R125LE Posts: Too much. Blog Entries: 7	Last two tanks: 38 mpg, then 46 mpg. __________________________________________________ Montgomery Street Motorcycle Club / cal24.com / crf250l.org / ninjette.org ninjette.org Terms of Service Shopping for motorcycle parts or equipment? Come here first. The friendliest Ninja 250R/300/400 forum on the internet! (especially Unregistered)

October 21st, 2012, 02:06 PM	#107
choneofakind ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: . Location: . Join Date: Feb 2011 Motorcycle(s): . Posts: Too much. MOTM - Feb '13, Feb '14	Alex, I think you should also post up some numbers once Annie starts riding it. You might just be the most throttle-happy rider in our little pole

October 21st, 2012, 08:01 PM	#109
Alex ninjette.org dude Name: 1 guess :-) Location: SF Bay Area Join Date: Jun 2008 Motorcycle(s): '13 Ninja 300 (white, the fastest color!), '13 R1200RT, '14 CRF250L, '12 TT-R125LE Posts: Too much. Blog Entries: 7	I'm not very aerodynamic. __________________________________________________ Montgomery Street Motorcycle Club / cal24.com / crf250l.org / ninjette.org ninjette.org Terms of Service Shopping for motorcycle parts or equipment? Come here first. The friendliest Ninja 250R/300/400 forum on the internet! (especially Unregistered)

October 23rd, 2012, 04:21 PM	#110
kooshbox ninjette.org member Name: Shawn Location: Southern California Join Date: Oct 2012 Motorcycle(s): 2013 Ninja 300 Posts: 40	Got another identical 61 MPG today. About to do my break-in service! __________________________________________________ OZmG i'm hungry

October 29th, 2012, 01:29 PM	#112
Byakkotai ninjette.org guru Name: Roger Location: NorCali - East Bay Join Date: Sep 2012 Motorcycle(s): 2013 White Ninja 300 Posts: 379	The quietness in here is chilling oooo. Last fill-up got 67 mpg, don't know if I can beat that on the next fill up

October 29th, 2012, 06:43 PM	#115
Surferboy120 Finding some curves.... Name: Thomas Location: Hurst,Texas Join Date: Sep 2012 Motorcycle(s): 2013 300 Ninja Posts: 268	Got 51 last fillup since putting on my Roso IIs he he he

October 29th, 2012, 06:45 PM	#116
Alex ninjette.org dude Name: 1 guess :-) Location: SF Bay Area Join Date: Jun 2008 Motorcycle(s): '13 Ninja 300 (white, the fastest color!), '13 R1200RT, '14 CRF250L, '12 TT-R125LE Posts: Too much. Blog Entries: 7	Next goal is into the 40's, Thomas! __________________________________________________ Montgomery Street Motorcycle Club / cal24.com / crf250l.org / ninjette.org ninjette.org Terms of Service Shopping for motorcycle parts or equipment? Come here first. The friendliest Ninja 250R/300/400 forum on the internet! (especially Unregistered)

November 18th, 2012, 08:51 AM	#120
Old Guy on a '08 Chris Name: Chris Location: Charlotte, NC near UNCC Join Date: Aug 2012 Motorcycle(s): BLACK!!! '08 250R Posts: 957	What??? All you 300 riders quite riding in November? __________________________________________________ Some roads are too good to waste on four wheels! Riding in a car is like watching a movie... Riding on a motorcycle is like being in one....

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