Is an electric Kawasaki Ninja coming out very soon? Leaked patent images surface

[FrugalNinja250]

Originally Posted by adouglas

And my Honda Fit, purchased brand-new in 2008, cost me $16,000.

It gets 32-35 mpg.

Do the math to see how long I'd have to drive, at 20k of usage per year and $5 per gallon gas, to reach cost parity with your hybrid, even with tax incentives. Makes the proven, well-supported, old dinosaur ICE tech look a bit more attractive, doesn't it?

IMHO it still doesn't make sense to adopt the new tech and it won't until the total cost of ownership is within spitting distance.

Once the charging infrastructure is in place, it makes sense.

Once energy storage gets better, it makes sense.

All of this will happen eventually.

But until then, it remains a novelty and a conscience salve for the green-minded. (PS: Don't forget the TOTAL environmental impact of the tech, including manufacturing, use and disposal.)

I knew someone who actually did the math to prove why buying a Prius was a terrible idea. He used that math to decide not to buy one, and instead went out and bought a fully loaded Hummer H2 with leather. Honestly? Almost nobody does the math that way to decide which car to buy. They buy based on the features and options they want, for the price they want to pay. To me, one of the biggest features of an EV is that you never are concerned about fossil fuel prices. Oil spiked to $100/barrel? Who cares, you don't use that product anyway. $4 gas? How would you know what gas was, you haven't looked at a gas station marquee in years. That's something worth paying money for, as much as for all the other options and features that cars can come with.

On the Hummer purchase, I had to point out to the guy that for the price of that H2 and what it would cost to feed it's sub-10mpg he could have bought two Priuses plus enough gas to drive them both for 150k miles each and then driven them to the scrap yard and sold them for scrap value and still come out ahead.

LOL.

It's almost never about the math...

[choneofakind]

^^^ Frugal, I like your point, I just want to make a small amendment:

To me, one of the biggest features of an EV is that you never are directly concerned about fossil fuel prices.

Everyone's day to day life is still going to be impacted by oil prices, but if you have an EV, that impact will not be at the pump.

But yes, you're right. It's almost never about the math, except the cost for those of us at the bottom end of the consumer ability spectrum who cannot justify the extra cost at this time.


my only personal reservation with electrics is still mileage. Normally and usually, I'd be fine with an electric as a commuter. But let's look at another situation: in April, I drove to the west coast and back in a 2 week road trip. On the way home, I made it 2500 miles in 2 days. With a charge only lasting 250 miles (or whatever it's at now with conservative driving) and a charge taking hours, that would not be possible. Now I know, the argument is then to a) borrow a car for your planned trips or b) fly more often for trips, which I almost never do, or c) own a second "road trip" car, which IMHO totalyl negates the purpose of being excited that I don't get impacted by gas prices from an electric car.

Idk, I nerd out on electric cars because I'm as big of a Tesla and Mission Motors and Brammo fan as the next guy. In fact, I really like electrics from an enthusiast standpoint. But I don't think that, as someone who only has space for one motorcycle and one car, I'm ready to own an electric just yet. Some day.

[VaFish]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

^^^ Frugal, I like your point, I just want to make a small amendment:



Everyone's day to day life is still going to be impacted by oil prices, but if you have an EV, that impact will not be at the pump.

But yes, you're right. It's almost never about the math, except the cost for those of us at the bottom end of the consumer ability spectrum who cannot justify the extra cost at this time.


my only personal reservation with electrics is still mileage. Normally and usually, I'd be fine with an electric as a commuter. But let's look at another situation: in April, I drove to the west coast and back in a 2 week road trip. On the way home, I made it 2500 miles in 2 days. With a charge only lasting 250 miles (or whatever it's at now with conservative driving) and a charge taking hours, that would not be possible. Now I know, the argument is then to a) borrow a car for your planned trips or b) fly more often for trips, which I almost never do, or c) own a second "road trip" car, which IMHO totalyl negates the purpose of being excited that I don't get impacted by gas prices from an electric car.

Idk, I nerd out on electric cars because I'm as big of a Tesla and Mission Motors and Brammo fan as the next guy. In fact, I really like electrics from an enthusiast standpoint. But I don't think that, as someone who only has space for one motorcycle and one car, I'm ready to own an electric just yet. Some day.

Electric car for daily use, rent car for trips.

I think they should design electric cars that take a hybrid engine pack or engine trailer that turns the EV into a long range capable hybrid. Dealers could rent out the engine packs on an as needed basis.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by VaFish

Electric car for daily use, rent car for trips.

Uh... already listed that above, but there's more problems for me personally. Read on.

I live 200-ish miles from home. I'm a college student with a car. I make this trip a few times a semester. Some weekends I drive to different areas of the state to bike, also about 100 miles away, made in a single day trip. I usually do this a few times a semester also. That's the edge of the envelope, no? I'm not about to borrow someone's car multiple times a semester just to go home when I have a perfectly good conventional car to my name.

Originally Posted by VaFish

I think they should design electric cars that take a hybrid engine pack or engine trailer that turns the EV into a long range capable hybrid. Dealers could rent out the engine packs on an as needed basis.

That would be a neat setup if someone could make it work. But it would look a little funny. Imagine a sleek, handsome, sporty, streamlined Tesla towing a generator... That's also one more step the consumer has to take, so it's going to be listed as a "negative" or "problem" by those who strongly oppose electrics. Sure, it can be done. But! Like Apple, there's an image that has to be upheld. It's not just an engineering problem, it's a branding issue. They've got supercharger stations, which are cool! But I don't know how many consumers would feel about an EV towing a generator. Plus that's weight capacity of the car that can't be put towards luggage and passengers, etc etc etc.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Idk, I nerd out on electric cars because I'm as big of a Tesla and Mission MotorsRIP and BrammoPolaris fan as the next guy.

FTFY.

[ninjamunky85]

Just like the guys today that will only own old cars and don't care for anything that doesn't have a carburetor, there will always be those who prefer internal combustion engines. I've got nothing against the technology but I'm just not in any hurry to own one myself... Not any electric options in a pick-up out there anyway, so no replacement for my current "cage" anytime soon.

But no matter how far the technology comes there is just no way that an electric motor will ever be as cool as a gas engine. Electric motors are for appliances. I wan't my refrigerator to hum,.. I want my motorcycle to purr, and snarl, and growl!!! Electric motors will never sound as cool as, or have the unique feel of an ICE.

When the day comes that I'm looking for a new truck and there is a legitimate electric version available I would certainly consider it, but when it comes to motorcycles It would be hard for me to not have at least one that was still dependent on ol' fashioned dino oil.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by Alex

FTFY.

Hey, DeLorean's are still cool too! Dead or alive, don't matter.

[VaFish]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Uh... already listed that above, but there's more problems for me personally. Read on.

I live 200-ish miles from home. I'm a college student with a car. I make this trip a few times a semester. Some weekends I drive to different areas of the state to bike, also about 100 miles away, made in a single day trip. I usually do this a few times a semester also. That's the edge of the envelope, no? I'm not about to borrow someone's car multiple times a semester just to go home when I have a perfectly good conventional car to my name.



That would be a neat setup if someone could make it work. But it would look a little funny. Imagine a sleek, handsome, sporty, streamlined Tesla towing a generator... That's also one more step the consumer has to take, so it's going to be listed as a "negative" or "problem" by those who strongly oppose electrics. Sure, it can be done. But! Like Apple, there's an image that has to be upheld. It's not just an engineering problem, it's a branding issue. They've got supercharger stations, which are cool! But I don't know how many consumers would feel about an EV towing a generator. Plus that's weight capacity of the car that can't be put towards luggage and passengers, etc etc etc.

While a trailer would be the easiest option, a form fitting pack that makes a hatch back look like a car with a trunk is what I envision. Although that would probably mess up the weight balance.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by ninjamunky85

But no matter how far the technology comes there is just no way that an electric motor will ever be as cool as a gas engine. Electric motors are for appliances. I wan't my refrigerator to hum,.. I want my motorcycle to purr, and snarl, and growl!!! Electric motors will never sound as cool as, or have the unique feel of an ICE.
.

Werd. It's all about that visceral experience. How it feels, sounds, smells, rumbles, etc. It's a part of the charm. QFT.

[Jono]

I hope it'll be cheaper than the other electric motorcycle options.

[VaFish]

Originally Posted by Jono

I hope it'll be cheaper than the other electric motorcycle options.

I wonder how expensive the electric ducati will be?

[allanoue]

Originally Posted by VaFish

At what price? $250,000?

Not sure but I know that number is ridiculously wrong. Time will tell. and not much time.

[allanoue]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Werd. It's all about that visceral experience. How it feels, sounds, smells, rumbles, etc. It's a part of the charm. QFT.

I have read a few reviews who liken riding e-bikes to riding a magic carpet. I will not miss buzzing hands and feet, or the need for ear protection just to run around town. (Still need ear protection for the freeway)

[VaFish]

Originally Posted by allanoue

Not sure but I know that number is ridiculously wrong. Time will tell. and not much time.

I don't think it is ridiculously high.

We are talking 2 1/2 times the current range in 2 years? That takes a huge technological leap, and those don't come cheap. Current car going 240 miles is $70,000, just a simple calculation of 2.5 times $70K is $175,000. If you look at EV vehicle range vs cost the further you go the greater the cost of the vehicle, and it isn't a straight line progression. To get an extra 30 miles range going from a Tesla 70 to the 85 you have to pay an extra $15,000. That's $15,000 price increase for a 11% increase in range. So $150,000 for a 100% increase in range or $250,000 for a 250% increase is about right using Tesla's current vehicles and pricing.


But whatever the price is, a 640 mile range will not be affordable for the average person, heck 240 miles for $70,000 isn't affordable right now. (although I do have a neighbor with 2 of them)

[allanoue]

Originally Posted by VaFish

I don't think it is ridiculously high.

We are talking 2 1/2 times the current range in 2 years? That takes a huge technological leap, and those don't come cheap. Current car going 240 miles is $70,000, just a simple calculation of 2.5 times $70K is $175,000. If you look at EV vehicle range vs cost the further you go the greater the cost of the vehicle, and it isn't a straight line progression. To get an extra 30 miles range going from a Tesla 70 to the 85 you have to pay an extra $15,000. That's $15,000 price increase for a 11% increase in range. So $150,000 for a 100% increase in range or $250,000 for a 250% increase is about right using Tesla's current vehicles and pricing.


But whatever the price is, a 640 mile range will not be affordable for the average person, heck 240 miles for $70,000 isn't affordable right now. (although I do have a neighbor with 2 of them)

Zero has lower prices for there 2015 bikes by $1350 from 2014 and at the same time increase range and performance so your numbers are all wrong.

More range for less money! I would bet my house on it.

[VaFish]

Originally Posted by allanoue

Zero has lower prices for there 2015 bikes by $1350 from 2014 and at the same time increase range and performance so your numbers are all wrong.

More range for less money! I would bet my house on it.

Nope,

Would ruin their current customer base and any future sales.

Why would I spend $75,000-$85,000 on a car when the company founder keeps promising more for less in 2 years. It would completely destroy any resale value of the current cars.

I just don't see it, especially not in 2 years.

We'll have to come back and see who is right.

And your house is safe, I have no desire to live in PA. But I'll ride up to York in 2 years and buy you a beer if I am wrong.

[allanoue]

Originally Posted by VaFish

Nope,

Would ruin their current customer base and any future sales.

Why would I spend $75,000-$85,000 on a car when the company founder keeps promising more for less in 2 years. It would completely destroy any resale value of the current cars.

I just don't see it, especially not in 2 years.

We'll have to come back and see who is right.

And your house is safe, I have no desire to live in PA. But I'll ride up to York in 2 years and buy you a beer if I am wrong.

I will let you buy me a beer.
If I am wrong viceversa.
2015 Zero 185 miles
2014 158 miles
2013 137 miles
2012 112 miles
2011 58 miles
2010 50 miles

[Hero Danny]

I'd love to try riding an electric motorcycle some time, seems like a lot of fun. I would miss not having a clutch or transmission, but having instant torque would be awesome.

[VaFish]

Originally Posted by Hero Danny

I'd love to try riding an electric motorcycle some time, seems like a lot of fun. I would miss not having a clutch or transmission, but having instant torque would be awesome.

I rode a zero a few years ago. It was fun, I didn't miss the clutch or transmission at all. Just twist the grip and go.

[Hero Danny]

Originally Posted by maverick31210

I don't know if I would. I like being able to do my own work on all my cars, bikes, etc...I wouldn't know where to start with an electric bike and not to mention the special tools that might be required.

I think that was supposed to be the beauty of the all electric motors in bikes. There's nearly no-maintenance, like fluid changes, spark plugs, etc. (other than tires, brakes, etc.).

But if something does break in the battery then you'll just buy a whole new battery, pop the old one out and put the new one in. Not sure if it will be "that" simple. but it seems like a neat enough idea Jay Leno talked about this in his video.

Link to original page on YouTube.

me personally, I'd love to own my gas powered bike and an electric bike, who says you have to have only one motorcycle?!

[Hero Danny]

Originally Posted by VaFish

I rode a zero a few years ago. It was fun, I didn't miss the clutch or transmission at all. Just twist the grip and go.

Ah, I love the Zero's! Such nice looking bikes! I wish there was a dealer in MA. I contacted the company a few months ago for a test ride but the closest dealer was over 10 hours away

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by allanoue

Not sure but I know that number is ridiculously wrong. Time will tell. and not much time.

So you're not sure... yet you KNOW. huh. So which is true? Do you know? or are you unsure? How valid is the statement you're trying to make since you're not in agreement with your own level of certainty?

I'm not in disagreement with what you're saying. Prices drop as things get more common and more companies make them and compete to sell them. Look at computers for example. Price vs performance is always dropping. Never before have we been able to get such awesome computers for the price. This trend will only get better as we march forward. I assume the same concept applies to vehicle batteries.

Originally Posted by allanoue

I have read a few reviews who liken riding e-bikes to riding a magic carpet. I will not miss buzzing hands and feet, or the need for ear protection just to run around town. (Still need ear protection for the freeway)

I don't want a flying carpet. I want a Vtwin that rumbles or an inline 4 that screams or a thumper that goes BRAAAAAAAAAP. It's part of the charm. Don't forget the sounds made by classic sports cars with engine configurations that aren't common any more.

Electrics are cool and I'd ride one in a heart beat if I had the opportunity. But as far as owning one? Not now. Not until they match my riding needs and come down in price. Even then, I'm not sure I'd want it as my only motorcycle because I'd miss out on the charm of the traditional gasoline engine.

The one thing I'd really like to have in electric is a riding lawn mower. No joke, I hate the lawn mower. I'd like a riding lawn mower that could go for 2-3 hours on a charge. I could mow the yard whenever the hell I please, and leave it in my garage on a smart charger and forget about it for a week until I had to mow again. It would be great.

Buzzing hands = you need to re-assess your grip and loosen it.

[VaFish]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

.....
The one thing I'd really like to have in electric is a riding lawn mower. No joke, I hate the lawn mower. I'd like a riding lawn mower that could go for 2-3 hours on a charge. I could mow the yard whenever the hell I please, and leave it in my garage on a smart charger and forget about it for a week until I had to mow again. It would be great.

.....

I want a Roomba (Yardba???) for my lawn that just comes out automatically and mows for me.

And I want another electric robot that picks up dog poo. (a Pooba????)

[choneofakind]

That would be great. Stake out the corners/edges of your yard with a network of little cameras and/or sensors of some type to set up a grid for the Yardba. Then let it go ham on the grass. It could even dock and charge itself when needed.

[allanoue]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

So you're not sure... yet you KNOW. huh. So which is true? Do you know? or are you unsure? How valid is the statement you're trying to make since you're not in agreement with your own level of certainty?

I made myself clear and you are smart enough to know that.
Back off!!

Originally Posted by choneofakind

I don't want a flying carpet. I want a Vtwin that rumbles or an inline 4 that screams or a thumper that goes BRAAAAAAAAAP. It's part of the charm. Don't forget the sounds made by classic sports cars with engine configurations that aren't common any more.

And I love going for a horseback ride every now and again. I get it.

Originally Posted by choneofakind

The one thing I'd really like to have in electric is a riding lawn mower. No joke, I hate the lawn mower. I'd like a riding lawn mower that could go for 2-3 hours on a charge. I could mow the yard whenever the hell I please, and leave it in my garage on a smart charger and forget about it for a week until I had to mow again. It would be great.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/home...lawn-15746274/
It was bliss. Every Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and Saturday at 1 o'clock, the mower would back out of its charging dock and quietly go about its business until 2 o'clock, when it would find its way back. The mower is so quiet that I considered rescheduling it for the middle of the night. My 4-year-old son, Owen, protested. Watching the mower cruise across the lawn had become one of his favorite activities. On Sundays, after setting it on the front lawn, I would uncap a beer and hand Owen a juice box, and we would sit in the rocking chairs on our porch and watch the Automower go—ironically, paying more attention than ever to our lawn.

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Buzzing hands = you need to re-assess your grip and loosen it.

IKR

[dcj13]

Originally Posted by VaFish

I think they should design electric cars that take a hybrid engine pack or engine trailer that turns the EV into a long range capable hybrid. Dealers could rent out the engine packs on an as needed basis.

That's an intriguing idea: a small aerodynamic trailer with a gasoline (or diesel) generator and fuel tank designed for the particular electric car. The auxiliary power trailer could be a dealer option, and aftermarket purchase, or a rental.

Why aren't they (or we) doing this now? Let's start the business!

CORRECTION: they're already out there!

[choneofakind]

that's it. VW could make diesel generator trailers now. Those don't have to pass the same emissions regulations, amiright?!!??!

[VaFish]

Originally Posted by dcj13

That's an intriguing idea: a small aerodynamic trailer with a gasoline (or diesel) generator and fuel tank designed for the particular electric car. The auxiliary power trailer could be a dealer option, and aftermarket purchase, or a rental.

Why aren't they (or we) doing this now? Let's start the business!

Ok,

We need some old U-Haul Sport Trailers and generators.

My other plan is for the trunk attachment. But since it will mess up the weight distribution the electric car will be front wheel drive with a movable rear axle that pivots around to go under the engine pack. Excuse my poor art work, but something like the 2nd picture.

[InvisiBill]

Originally Posted by adouglas

And my Honda Fit, purchased brand-new in 2008, cost me $16,000.

It gets 32-35 mpg.

Do the math to see how long I'd have to drive, at 20k of usage per year and $5 per gallon gas, to reach cost parity with your hybrid, even with tax incentives. Makes the proven, well-supported, old dinosaur ICE tech look a bit more attractive, doesn't it?

IMHO it still doesn't make sense to adopt the new tech and it won't until the total cost of ownership is within spitting distance.

Once the charging infrastructure is in place, it makes sense.

Once energy storage gets better, it makes sense.

All of this will happen eventually.

But until then, it remains a novelty and a conscience salve for the green-minded. (PS: Don't forget the TOTAL environmental impact of the tech, including manufacturing, use and disposal.)

Those numbers are similar to when I bought my '09 Cobalt new. My '14 Volt with the leather interior package (the heated seats are more efficient than the standard cabin heater) was also purchased new (demo car with about 2600 miles on it) for about $22,000 after the tax credit. Considering that the base model Cruze was around $18k, it seemed like a no-brainer to get the Volt for a few thousand more. This car is in a completely different class compared to a base model Cobalt or Cruze.

Per OnStar, in one year of owning the Volt, I drove a total of 9267.6305 miles (lower than what I usually drive in a year, due to other circumstances). 6538.30336 electric, 2729.32714 gas. I burned 86.9211 gallons of gas, and using the 3.3mi/kWh average, used 1981.3kWh (the data doesn't show actual kWh used directly). Using my Fuelly average of $2.534/gal and the national average of $0.12/kWh (which is basically what I pay), I've spent $220.29 on gas (very close to the actual spending tracked in Fuelly as of my last fillup) and $237.76 on electricity, for a grand total of $458.05 in fuel. Overall cost per mile is $0.049 (compared to $0.068 on my 50mpg Ninja). I've spent about $40 in maintenance on it - wiper blades, washer fluid, and a cabin air filter.

With your example of 20k miles, my 70/30 Volt getting 3.3mi/kWh and 32mpg would save you $463.78 a year over a 35mpg car at my $2.534/gal average. At $5/gal, you're saving $1444.51 a year. If you can manage to stay on battery more than I do, or get cheaper electric rates (some people only/primarily charge at work where it's free, dirt-cheap off-peak rates, etc.), you'll save even more. That's not justification to go spend $40k on a Volt instead of a <$20k cheap commuter car, but I think it's a good reason to spend the extra $4k on a Volt with leather (plus all the fancy stuff that's standard in the Volt) over a base model Cruze.

According to Volt Stats, my records are 574.18 miles without using any gas, 70.3 electric miles in a day, and 1,853.85 miles between fillups. Not too shabby for a car with a "38 mile" battery. I got the Volt because I'm out in the sticks a bit, so I have longer drives and fewer charging stations available. I don't trust a pure EV, but the Volt lets me be EV most of the time, and instantly change to ICE whenever necessary. I'm actually glad to see that I really am making some use of the ICE (otherwise the Volt was a waste over a pure EV), but I'm still on battery about 70% of the time (significantly avoiding the more expensive fuel).

[Alex]

Originally Posted by allanoue

I will let you buy me a beer.
If I am wrong viceversa.
2015 Zero 185 miles
2014 158 miles
2013 137 miles
2012 112 miles
2011 58 miles
2010 50 miles

At best this is wildly optimistic, at worst it's misleading. Battery tech hasn't gotten better by 370% in 5 years (50 ---> 185). The increased range is due to putting larger batteries on, and better control software to use its power more efficiently when running at very low loads. If one rides it on the highway for any distance, the range is nowhere near that top number. It would be analogous to saying that our Ninja 300's have 400 mile range (as long as you ride them at 38 mph with a tailwind for the entire tank).

Tesla is spending more than anyone else on the market in improving battery capacity and cost/capacity, and they've achieved a 60% capacity improvement since 2008. (source)

It's why everyone continues to talk about a battery breakthrough being necessary, as incremental improvements won't match the cost/capability of ICE engines for many decades. My primary car is mainly propelled by an electric motor, but the reason that it's cost-effective and performs well is because it has an ICE engine to provide the electricity, as well as a comparatively small battery to store some over time. Love the torque of an electric motor, but carrying 120 pounds of gas to take the car 800 miles is always going to win out for me over carrying 1200 pounds of batteries to take it 250 miles.

[VaFish]

Originally Posted by dcj13

That's an intriguing idea: a small aerodynamic trailer with a gasoline (or diesel) generator and fuel tank designed for the particular electric car. The auxiliary power trailer could be a dealer option, and aftermarket purchase, or a rental.

Why aren't they (or we) doing this now? Let's start the business!

CORRECTION: they're already out there!

Another advantage to the trailer or generator pack is that they can easily be upgraded as technology improves or depending upon where you are going.

You could select, diesel, propane, compressed natural gas, gasoline, hydrogen, ect... power generators depending upon what is available in the area you are traveling in.

We need some open source car designs.

[InvisiBill]

Originally Posted by VaFish

Ok,

We need some old U-Haul Sport Trailers and generators.

My other plan is for the trunk attachment. But since it will mess up the weight distribution the electric car will be front wheel drive with a movable rear axle that pivots around to go under the engine pack. Excuse my poor art work, but something like the 2nd picture.

DIYers have been doing the trailer thing for years. http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopi...art=80#p155656 and http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopi...rt=100#p156173 are from 2011.

One of the big problems is that standard charging generally isn't allowed while the vehicle is driving. For what I assume are safety reasons, I can't even put the Volt into gear if it's still plugged in. Obviously that's a simple check to override, but it requires you to make some sort of alternate hookup/communication for a gen-trailer vs. a standard charging station cable (to retain the safety mechanism when it's plugged in to a charging station, but allow it to run with the trailer plugged in).

Also, keep in mind that this is essentially what the Volt does, except it's all built into the standard vehicle, and with the parameter sliders set in slightly different places. As opposed to having a pure BEV with a generator module for use in those extreme situations, the Volt is designed more half & half. The battery is only designed to cover an average user's daily driving, but the generator is right there and 100% seamless to use. The downside is that you're hauling the ICE around all the time (even when you know for a fact you wouldn't need it) and it requires extra stuff to integrate the two systems (extra cost and complexity). However, I think it's a better solution for 99% of drivers. There are some benefits to a gen-trailer, but the seamless integration of the two systems on the Volt is what makes it so amazing. You're sacrificing a bit of efficiency for a lot of convenience and ease of use.

GM did lots of research on how much mileage was needed for "an average user's daily driving". I would love to see them ~double the battery capacity (the new '16 has 51% more range than the original '11). I think that would do more to get actual electric miles driven than coming up with pure BEVs with huge (but still relatively slow to refill) batteries to cover those extreme use cases. There will always be outliers, but I know that personally I would've gotten much more regular use out of a 50-60mi battery in the Volt than out of a huge battery attempting to replace my ICE generator. Most of my gas-powered miles jumped up 10-20 miles at a time, while even a top of the line Model S still can't handle my annual camping trip. More battery range is always better, but right now it still seems to be just throwing more capacity at it to mask the issue of slow, inconvenient refills (admittedly, the Volt has one of the worst charging setups, because "it's not needed as much").

For a lot of people, I think a Volt-style setup with a slightly larger battery would cover the vast majority of regular driving with electric, and the ICE generator still does a better job of handling those unusual situations, compared to a Tesla-style pure BEV with a huge battery (at least with the current battery situation). It does have the downsides of always carrying two separate power systems around with you, plus it doesn't actually eliminate gasoline usage.

http://spectrum.ieee.org/semiconduct...le-electronics has some info on a recent ultracapacitor developments. Assuming new battery/capacitor advances aren't drastically different from current electrical solutions, you should at least theoretically be able to swap in an upgraded battery pack too (like replacing your drill's NiMH battery with a new LiIon). Just like there are a variety of battery styles you can put in your Ninja, it shouldn't be too hard to make a new EV battery with new technology that has the same output characteristics as the original battery (although there are obviously more details to consider over a simple 12V battery swap).

[VaFish]

Originally Posted by InvisiBill

DIYers have been doing the trailer thing for years. http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopi...art=80#p155656 and http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopi...rt=100#p156173 are from 2011.

One of the big problems is that standard charging generally isn't allowed while the vehicle is driving. For what I assume are safety reasons, I can't even put the Volt into gear if it's still plugged in. Obviously that's a simple check to override, but it requires you to make some sort of alternate hookup/communication for a gen-trailer vs. a standard charging station cable (to retain the safety mechanism when it's plugged in to a charging station, but allow it to run with the trailer plugged in).

Also, keep in mind that this is essentially what the Volt does, except it's all built into the standard vehicle, and with the parameter sliders set in slightly different places. As opposed to having a pure BEV with a generator module for use in those extreme situations, the Volt is designed more half & half. The battery is only designed to cover an average user's daily driving, but the generator is right there and 100% seamless to use. The downside is that you're hauling the ICE around all the time (even when you know for a fact you wouldn't need it) and it requires extra stuff to integrate the two systems (extra cost and complexity). However, I think it's a better solution for 99% of drivers. There are some benefits to a gen-trailer, but the seamless integration of the two systems on the Volt is what makes it so amazing. You're sacrificing a bit of efficiency for a lot of convenience and ease of use.

GM did lots of research on how much mileage was needed for "an average user's daily driving". I would love to see them ~double the battery capacity (the new '16 has 43% more range than the original '11). I think that would do more to get actual electric miles driven than coming up with pure BEVs with huge (but still relatively slow to refill) batteries to cover those extreme use cases. There will always be outliers, but I know that personally I would've gotten much more regular use out of a 50-60mi battery in the Volt than out of a huge battery attempting to replace my ICE generator. Most of my gas-powered miles jumped up 10-20 miles at a time, while even a top of the line Model S still can't handle my annual camping trip. More battery range is always better, but right now it still seems to be just throwing more capacity at it to mask the issue of slow, inconvenient refills (admittedly, the Volt has one of the worst charging setups, because "it's not needed as much").

For a lot of people, I think a Volt-style setup with a slightly larger battery would cover the vast majority of regular driving with electric, and the ICE generator still does a better job of handling those unusual situations, compared to a Tesla-style pure BEV with a huge battery (at least with the current battery situation). It does have the downsides of always carrying two separate power systems around with you, plus it doesn't actually eliminate gasoline usage.

http://spectrum.ieee.org/semiconduct...le-electronics has some info on a recent ultracapacitor developments. Assuming new battery/capacitor advances aren't drastically different from current electrical solutions, you should at least theoretically be able to swap in an upgraded battery pack too (like replacing your drill's NiMH battery with a new LiIon). Just like there are a variety of battery styles you can put in your Ninja, it shouldn't be too hard to make a new EV battery with new technology that has the same output characteristics as the original battery (although there are obviously more details to consider over a simple 12V battery swap).

The advantage of the trailer or removable engine pack is that you don't have to lug all the weight around when you don't need it.

How much further could a volt travel on battery alone if it didn't have the engine and fuel on board?

Some simple command and control wires in the plug for the trailer should allow the EV to control the ICE trailer and know when it is plugged in, start it running, ect..... If they could make a standard connector and control signals (like the ODBII connectors have) then it wouldn't matter who's trailer you used. You could go to any dealership or rental agency to get your extended range when you needed it.

[InvisiBill]

Originally Posted by VaFish

The advantage of the trailer or removable engine pack is that you don't have to lug all the weight around when you don't need it.

Absolutely agreed. I'd love it if I could just pop the Volt's engine out and leave it in the garage for short trips where I know I'll be purely electric, even if it only gave me a few more miles of range.

Originally Posted by VaFish

How much further could a volt travel on battery alone if it didn't have the engine and fuel on board?

I'm sure it would improve, but I honestly don't think it would be a huge amount. I can't seem to find the weight of the 84hp LUU 1.4L I4 engine (it uses hollow-frame construction so the cast block is supposed to be 20% lighter, plus some other hollow parts), and it only has a 9.3gal tank. In a 3800lb car, that's not a huge percentage of the weight. I doubt there'd be physical space for it, but that weight allowance would probably let you double the battery capacity (the existing battery pack is 435lb).

The hybrid setup of the Volt also allows it to do some neat things. The generator can actually act as a secondary motor via the planetary, allowing it to reach higher speeds without getting out of the main motor's efficiency range (it's software limited to 100mph, and can hit that without using the ICE at all). Other PHEVs seem to use a simpler setup which doesn't allow you to get as much out of the EV half of the system. It's definitely a compromise between complexity and features no matter how you look at it.

Originally Posted by VaFish

Some simple command and control wires in the plug for the trailer should allow the EV to control the ICE trailer and know when it is plugged in, start it running, ect..... If they could make a standard connector and control signals (like the ODBII connectors have) then it wouldn't matter who's trailer you used. You could go to any dealership or rental agency to get your extended range when you needed it.

I think a basic system like that could be fairly easy to rig up. I think it would take a lot of work to make it into an idiot-proof system that anyone can use. Especially if you wanted universal options, I think the car and trailer systems would have to pass a ton of operational details to each other for best results. The car would have to do a lot of extra calculations for figuring out when and how long it needed to run the generator, which would be complicated by varying generator options. The engine running the generator would also need a full computer system to control its operation and share data with the car. And then you have to consider the issues of mounting what's basically a full engine system from a small car onto a trailer - the GX100 engine used in the EU2000i 2000W generator is 2.8hp, 1/30 of the Volt's ICE.

Obviously it can be done, since the Volt is doing it right now in one big package. It all comes down to the cost of splitting the generator out into a separate unit vs. the improved efficiency of not having to haul the generator around 100% of the time. My feeling is that there's enough complexity in the Volt system with one EV and one ICE/generator to make it seamless. Trying to give the car the ability to control a plethora of external ICE/generator setups could be a nightmare. Also note that in this Volt-i3 comparison, the i3 weighs 900lb less and has a 19% higher MPGe rating, but it was only 11-14% more efficient in their city and highway testing. After 12k miles, the increased efficiency would save about $40. If you're only saving $50-$100 a year by not having the weight of the ICE/generator permanently installed, there's much less incentive to do all this work to make the ICE/generator a separate module.


While it's nice to have the option not to haul around the REx even when you don't need it, the great thing about the Volt is that you always do have it. With a press of a button, you can instantly switch between EV and ICE as needed. You can definitely get higher efficiency with a little planning, but it's 100% possible to drive the Volt with the exact same planning level as any regular ICE car. If you leave your gen-trailer at home, you're still screwed if something unexpected comes up. I'd rather put the effort toward not needing the REx at all than toward making the REx a more portable option.

[JohnnyBravo]

Originally Posted by ForceofWill

Same for those pussy a$$ F1 cars and their flappy curtains, gimme that big ol stick between my fingers.

I think I found a new drunken pickup line... Thanks

[JohnnyBravo]

Folks talking all about these electronical carriages and such like someone invented the wheel... They were crushed the every other time they came on the market by the fuels, I'm glad they are hanging around this time!!!

Electric cars in the 1800's happened.
Even the real tesla built parts for one, where you think mr musky got his idea.

[NevadaWolf]

So, skimming through the rest of this thread, it's sounding like right now the hybrid is the best - advantages from both worlds. Later, full EV would be the way to go once the infrastructure was in place and battery size shrinks while range expands.

Ok.

https://www.logostech.net/logos-tech...ry-motorcycle/

https://rideapart.com/articles/silen...special-forces

[VaFish]

Originally Posted by NevadaWolf

So, skimming through the rest of this thread, it's sounding like right now the hybrid is the best - advantages from both worlds. Later, full EV would be the way to go once the infrastructure was in place and battery size shrinks while range expands.

Ok.

https://www.logostech.net/logos-tech...ry-motorcycle/

https://rideapart.com/articles/silen...special-forces

Hmmmm, Kawasaki electric Ninja 300 with a set of panniers that each hold a Honda EU1000 generator might work.

[FrugalNinja250]

Originally Posted by NevadaWolf

So, skimming through the rest of this thread, it's sounding like right now the hybrid is the best

Best for whom, everyone? There are over 200 million licensed drivers in this country alone, certainly it's quite possible that a full EV would be best for some of them, perhaps a lot of them. One indicator of this fact is that the EV makers are selling every single car they make, and are sold out for months in advance. Want a Tesla? Get in line, you'll get yours in a year or two. But wait, you want to buy a used one? Get in line, they rarely come up for sale in most areas and when they do their resale value is very, very high. That's one thing about EVs (and to a lesser extent advanced hybrids like the Volt and Prius) that many people don't really know about, and that is they hold their value far better than a plain gas car.

I'm not picking on you in particular, I just wanted to point out that broad sweeping generalizations are not a really good thing to build the understanding of a subject upon. There are many vehicles that would fit that "best" claim, depending on one's needs. For instance, the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_XT would be best if you needed a pickup truck that could haul over 12,000 lbs of cargo. Is that best for everybody? LOL. You hopefully begin to see what I mean.

A lot of people confuse regular needs with rare needs. For instance. I regularly need to move my butt to work and back to the house. I rarely need to haul a trailer load of soil. So, I ride a bike almost all the time (regular needs) and get access to a truck to pull my trailer with (rarely). The trailer, bike, and irregular access to a truck are far cheaper than it would be if I just bought a truck and drove it all the time.

It's never that simple...

[Alex]

I mostly agree with Frugal. But I kinda agree with the Wolf as well. Depends how the question is phrased. People picking the "best vehicle for their needs" is a complete crapshoot, depending on the amount and prioritization of their own needs. And many of those needs will vary depending on the individual, to the point that the need seems silly to some. Need to drive a new car. Need to drive a large car. Need to be seen in something higher tech. Need to be seen as a truck person. Need to buy local. Need to buy exotic. All of those are tied to personal preferences, and people should buy whatever they need (see: want).

But when we are talking about physics, the needs become less malleable, and conclusions can be drawn. Those who ignore the inconvenient facts aren't more open-minded, they are just, well, wrong skipping over some important data. Batteries, even our most advanced, have a small fraction of the energy by weight compared to gas (or diesel, or CNG, etc.). If you want to have the same amount of energy in batteries that you have in fuel, you need to carry many, many times the weight, at many, many times the cost.

Gasoline has 33.41 kwh/gal (link). 3 gallons of it will run you less than $9, and it will weigh about 20 pounds. You will have more energy than the latest $100K+ P90D Tesla (that 90 stands for the 90 kwh battery pack). That battery pack costs $20K-$30K, and weighs 1200 pounds.

Those who believe that somehow those stark differences will get close to each other at a rapid pace are discounting both math and science. Now, they may be counting on external forces (political, scarcity, etc.) to more quickly tip the playing field, and that very well might turn out to be the case. But when compared to batteries, let alone just about any other source of stored energy, gas *is* better at energy per volume, per weight, and per cost. And will be for our lifetimes.

To the Wolf's point though, figuring out how to convert that gas into propulsion has some pretty good options at the moment. It may turn out that a hybrid is the best way to go (most efficient, most cost-effective) for quite some time, compared to a pure battery electric vehicle. Advantages of large range and cheap available energy in the onboard fuel, electric motors used to complement the efficiency of the gas engine. At some point that might transition over to pure BEV, but not in our lifetimes (or our grandkids lifetimes). And at that crossover point, it's unlikely to be due to batteries of today incrementally improving. It will either be some as yet unforeseen advance, or the cost of oil and/or synthetic hydrocarbon fuel getting so high as to make their physical property advantages no longer cost-effective.

(P.S. What would be really neat, is if there were a commercially and politically viable way to use uranium-235. Forget about this silly 33 kwh/gallon stuff, it stores 52,800,000 kwh per pound. (source) I want a nuclear-powered commuter car!)