Loud noise on downshift

[Archerzz]

I searched for this but couldnt find my exact issue.

Basically what I am hearing/getting is when I am coming up on a stop i start downshifting as I slow (with the clutch pulled the entire time coasting). Just to sort of match my gear to my speed. Well as I go down from one gear to another I hear a loud clunk and the bike kind of shakes like it doesnt jump forward or lurch it just feels like something in the engine/transmission/etc.. moves and the bike shakes. And as I shift down lower the louder it gets. Finally when I go from 2nd -> 1st the loudest of all and sometimes almost sounds like grinding gears like the clutch isnt fully pulled and the gears are clashing, or grinding. (thats only happened around 2 times and its only when I click down to first slowly)

Does anyone else hear a sound like this? someone suggested I try tightening my clutch cable as maybe the clutch is not fully engaging and its allowing a little contact even though it allows the RPMs to drop.

EDIT:

When I shift up there is sometimes a similar sound but not nearly as loud, right now I am new a this shifting thing so i chalk that one up to my inexperience with manual transmissions.

[CZroe]

If I try to ride off while using the choke I hear it very often when shifting from neutral to first. I've been in cars the same way (even with the clutch you will hear a bit of grinding when shifting out of neutral at a higher RPM).

[seldom]

This happened to me once as well and it turned out I didn't have enough free play in my clutch 2 - 3mm. Check that and if it is still doing that you may have bigger problem.

[Archerzz]

Originally Posted by seldom

This happened to me once as well and it turned out I didn't have enough free play in my clutch 2 - 3mm. Check that and if it is still doing that you may have bigger problem.

How do I adjust this?

EDIT:
Better yet what do you mean exactly play in the lever or do I need to tweak something else?

[Archerzz]

So after some research I think it has something to do with the bike jumping into neutral when I am doing a lazy shift. And that noise between shifting is normal?
Does anyone else hear a noise when shifting gears?

[seldom]

Yes the soft "clunk" sound you hear from 2nd to 1st gear is completely normal. It's not normal only if you hear grinding noise or any other noise.

What I mean by the free play in the clutch lever is do you see the adjuster at the end of the lever? Firstly undo the locking nut and adjust so when the clutch lever is not pull in you have 2-3mm gab between the lever and the clutch housing. Look in the manual if you're not sure. It's easy to adjust.

And when you change your gears especially from 1st to 2nd and 2nd to 1st make sure you change it positively and don't baby it when you do otherwise your gear will go into neutral.

[Archerzz]

Originally Posted by seldom

Yes the soft "clunk" sound you hear from 2nd to 1st gear is completely normal. It's not normal only if you hear grinding noise or any other noise.

What I mean by the free play in the clutch lever is do you see the adjuster at the end of the lever? Firstly undo the locking nut and adjust so when the clutch lever is not pull in you have 2-3mm gab between the lever and the clutch housing. Look in the manual if you're not sure. It's easy to adjust.

And when you change your gears especially from 1st to 2nd and 2nd to 1st make sure you change it positively and don't baby it when you do otherwise your gear will go into neutral.

Ok thats what I thought you meant so the handle should have some wiggle in it before the cable starts to get pulled?

As for shifting I sometimes do baby the shift and I notice that when I do the clunk is often quite louder.

[kkim]

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10016

[greg737]

Here's a quick one-page explanation of the noises you're hearing from the EX-250 gearbox. Worth reading.

http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Why_is_...27clunky%27%3F

The bottom line is the EX-250 gearbox, like every other motorcycle gearbox, is not a sycromesh type. It may sound surprising to you but when you shift the EX-250 things just crash together in there. That's how it's designed.

[greg737]

when I am coming up on a stop i start downshifting as I slow (with the clutch pulled the entire time coasting). Just to sort of match my gear to my speed.

You could work on improving your downshifting technique. Blipping the throttle to match revs and releasing the clutch is smoother and allows you to have power available if you need it.

Rolling along at speed with the clutch pulled in and the engine at idle makes me feel uncomfortable.

[Timon]

Easiest way I've found to come to a stop is just ride out your gear. If you're in 3rd, just ride it down to where the rpms are about at idle, then pull in the clutch, shift down to 1st and come to a stop. I do the same thing in my WRX, which is known to have a "glass" transmission and it makes it a lot easier than trying to downshift through every gear.

[Archerzz]

Originally Posted by Timon

Easiest way I've found to come to a stop is just ride out your gear. If you're in 3rd, just ride it down to where the rpms are about at idle, then pull in the clutch, shift down to 1st and come to a stop. I do the same thing in my WRX, which is known to have a "glass" transmission and it makes it a lot easier than trying to downshift through every gear.

What I do and its when i get the noise is just pull the clutch in and click down into first as im braking. Which I know is bad I am working on better technique but I dont even engage the clutch I just go *pull clutch lever* 4 -> clunk 3 -> clunk 2 -> cla-clunk -> 1 *stop*

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by CZroe

If I try to ride off while using the choke I hear it very often when shifting from neutral to first. I've been in cars the same way (even with the clutch you will hear a bit of grinding when shifting out of neutral at a higher RPM).

I wanted to expand on this. I'm told that it is perfectly normal for a bike on stands to continue powering the rear tires when the clutch is held in. This is because there is not enough force to stop it and there is enough surface tension in the clutch's fluids to transfer rotational force anyway. Now, when I have the choke on and it's pushing a couple thousand RPM while I warm up, rotational forces are higher but it is still not enough to move you on the bike. When I can't wait for it to warm up and I drop it into first (I commute to work and I can't be late!), I get a grinding as if I were trying to shift at the wrong speed due to the idle being too high for 1st. I'm sure it's bad so I try to remember to turn off choke before shifting but that often causes it to die. Because it sometimes does it without grinding, it's always temping to justquick-shift and go with the choke on.

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by greg737

Here's a quick one-page explanation of the noises you're hearing from the EX-250 gearbox. Worth reading.

http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Why_is_...27clunky%27%3F

The bottom line is the EX-250 gearbox, like every other motorcycle gearbox, is not a sycromesh type. It may sound surprising to you but when you shift the EX-250 things just crash together in there. That's how it's designed.

Hmm. My understanding of this is that it's OK to clutchlessly shift out of first and into neutral because it's just pulling out and not actively spinning against anythin. It's something I often do when I approach my parked bike to start it.

Strangely, I've recently found it very hard to clutchlessly shift out of 1st while parked or impossible without holding the clutch lever and moving the bike a bit, which is a bit inconvenient. I usually try to start ASAP so that it can be warming up while I attach my tank bag, secure my gloves, mount the bike, etc. I'm usually moving the choke with my left hand as I lift with my foot and reach for the ignition with my right hand, so I don't have any appendages left for operating the clutch (I'm obviously standing on the other foot but, well, even if I wasn't...).

It makes me wonder if these "dogs" are getting miss-shapen somehow and getting stuck in the "windows" until pushing the windows or pulling the dogs a bit frees them.

[greg737]

It makes me wonder if these "dogs" are getting miss-shapen somehow and getting stuck in the "windows" until pushing the windows or pulling the dogs a bit frees them.

I don't think that will happen, the transmission is very rugged. But the quality and "feel" of the shifting is directly related to the condition of your engine oil. Even a little degradation of the oil will make shifting feel different.

[Archerzz]

Originally Posted by greg737

I don't think that will happen, the transmission is very rugged. But the quality and "feel" of the shifting is directly related to the condition of your engine oil. Even a little degradation of the oil will make shifting feel different.

Which is odd because I didnt get the really loud clunks until after I changed my oil (or at least I didnt notice the noise until then).

I put in 10W-40 Synthetic Motorcycle oil which I read was the correct type.

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by greg737

I don't think that will happen, the transmission is very rugged. But the quality and "feel" of the shifting is directly related to the condition of your engine oil. Even a little degradation of the oil will make shifting feel different.

Well, I am talking about shifting into nutral clutchlessly while the engine is off (so that I can start it with the kick-stand still down), so I'm sure most oil has flowed out of the clutch at that point. I just changed my oil so I'll see if it gets any easier. Only sometimes does it refuse to move into neutral clutchlessly but it's happening very often when it once happened very rarely or not at all.

[greg737]

Originally Posted by CZroe

Well, I am talking about shifting into nutral clutchlessly while the engine is off (so that I can start it with the kick-stand still down), so I'm sure most oil has flowed out of the clutch at that point. I just changed my oil so I'll see if it gets any easier. Only sometimes does it refuse to move into neutral clutchlessly but it's happening very often when it once happened very rarely or not at all.

Here's my guess at why this happens sometimes and sometimes it doesn't.

As the gearbox information page I linked to explains, the EX-250 uses "dogs" that slot into "windows" when you shift. From looking at the Micro-Fiche of the EX-250 Transmission on the Ron Ayers website I can see there are 6 windows that recieve 3 dogs when the any of the input and output gears mesh (engage) inside the gearbox.

Obviously the dogs and windows are precision machined parts so the dogs probably fit (mate) very snugly against the ends of the windows when they engage.

Going from 1st gear to neutral with the engine off means there's no load on the gearbox and therefore it doesn't require clutch. Moving the gearshift lever up with your toe will rotate the gearbox shift drum a bit which will drag the shift forks in a direction that will pull the 1st gear dogs out of the windows they're currently engaged in leaving nothing engagee (in neutral). And, of course, with the engine shut down there's no oil circulating so there'd be even more friction between parts than there usually would be during this operation.

So when you're trying to shift into neutral with the engine off there could be two basic senarios: #1 when the engine stopped the dogs just happen to be "floating" in the middle of the windows so there's very little surface-to-surface friction and the shift is very easy, or #2 when the engine stopped the dogs finished up snugged against the ends of the windows so there's a lot of surface-to-surface friction.

It could be that which of these two conditions you end up with depends on how you habitually shut down and park your bike.