Having some troubleshooting issues... - Page 2

kkim · March 29th, 2011, 07:16 PM

well, the shim mod makes the mixture richer in the low to mid range, so maybe you might want to experiment with either adding or subtracting a washer, but would mean opening the carb tops back up.

if it's running too rich, you could always just remove the snorkel, but if you're running too lean, that would make the stuttering worse.

here's a guideline on fine tuning jetting, though 2 washers in the past have worked great for others with your setup. strange.
http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/How_to_...e_your_jetting

Cloud Strife · March 30th, 2011, 03:04 PM

Got home from work and took her for a quick rip around. Have some more details regarding how she's running.

No problems from 0-2500 RPM at which point it gets choppy. Between 2500-4000 it's rough, hesitant, choppy, but as soon as it hits 4000, it picks up like crazy and no problems right to red line.

I'm going to give the oil a change. I know it wont help, but it's the beginning of the season

kkim · March 30th, 2011, 03:20 PM

couple of things you can try... you choose.

remove or add a shim to the needles, though from what you describe it sounds like it might be a bit lean.

you can tune the mixture screws to see if that helps.

you can remove the snorkel if you think it's running too rich.

fillup with regular gas and add seafom to it as per the directions on the can.

I would recommended the last one to try first. Your carb setup should be giving you a nice running bike. Perhaps there is still some crud left in the carbs that running the seafom through for a couple of tanks will clear?? dunno, but if you can live with the stutter for a few tanks, I'd suggest going that route.

Cloud Strife · March 30th, 2011, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kkim

couple of things you can try... you choose.

remove or add a shim to the needles, though from what you describe it sounds like it might be a bit lean.

you can tune the mixture screws to see if that helps.

you can remove the snorkel if you think it's running too rich.

fillup with regular gas and add seafom to it as per the directions on the can.

I would recommended the last one to try first. Your carb setup should be giving you a nice running bike. Perhaps there is still some crud left in the carbs that running the seafom through for a couple of tanks will clear?? dunno, but if you can live with the stutter for a few tanks, I'd suggest going that route.

Hey Kelly, thanks a million. When I emptied the tank as part of my troubleshooting, I filled it up with premium and added SeaFoam. Do you reckon regular will make a difference?

I'll try that as well as adjusting the mixture screws. I don't think it's running too rich at this point so I'll hold off on the snorkel removal but that's definitely something I'll do in the future.

And for the record, no way in hell am I removing the carbs again unless I remove the air box :P

kkim · March 30th, 2011, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloud Strife

Hey Kelly, thanks a million. When I emptied the tank as part of my troubleshooting, I filled it up with premium and added SeaFoam. Do you reckon regular will make a difference?

I'll try that as well as adjusting the mixture screws. I don't think it's running too rich at this point so I'll hold off on the snorkel removal but that's definitely something I'll do in the future.

And for the record, no way in hell am I removing the carbs again unless I remove the air box :P

you should be fine with the premium for now, but fill with regular from now on.

lol... if you think removing the carbs was a PITA, wait till you try and remove that airbox. Notice I said try.

Cloud Strife · March 30th, 2011, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kkim

you should be fine with the premium for now, but fill with regular from now on.

lol... if you think removing the carbs was a PITA, wait till you try and remove that airbox. Notice I said try.

Yeah, I read the DIY...sounds like it'll be a real treat. I'm sure it won't be easy but at least if I manage to do it, I'll only have to do it once then it'll be smooth sailing.

I can live with the struggle for a few tanks and will fill it up with regular from now on. Hopefully it'll pick up, otherwise I'll take of the other steps you've mentioned.

Thanks again brother... Happy trails : )

kkim · March 30th, 2011, 03:49 PM

have fun.

Cloud Strife · April 3rd, 2011, 01:25 PM

Just wanted to update you fine people...removed the snorkel from the girl. Mine was really in there tight so I had to remove the battery and it's housing to get better access but I didn't have to take off the rear fairing.

Though it did sound like I was running a but lean, I don't think that was the case. Removing the snorkel didn't make it worse an arguably made it a little bit better. Is it possible that I was running rich after the shimming? Could there have been too much gas getting in in the low range and that's what's bogging it up in the 2500-4000 rpm range? From all the reading I've been doing, it doesn't really see like that's the case but leaning it out by removing the snorkel didn't seem to make matters worse.

kkim · April 3rd, 2011, 01:36 PM

removing the snorkel should have leaned out the mixture a tad throughout the entire power band, but it has a noticeable effect on the top end. Did you notice that the bike revved out to redline easier and kept pulling a bit better right up to hitting the rev limiter?

if your bike is livable at this point, I'd not touch the carbs. If you think you need to lean it up a tad more, and don't want to work on the carbs, installing a low restriction, drop in air filter element would help.

Cloud Strife · April 3rd, 2011, 01:45 PM

The bike is 100% livable and definitely had more juice on the top end. Arm stretching even. I'm going to run a few tanks of regular with SeaFoam as recommended and see where it takes me for now.

Just out of curiosity, would the fact that I shimmed using 4mm washers have any effect o anything? They didn't have 3mm ones and they seems to sit okay, though a bit big.

kkim · April 3rd, 2011, 02:05 PM

people have had problems when using 4mm washers when shimming, which is why the shimming instructions are very clear about which sizes to use... 3mm or SAE #4.

Cloud Strife · April 3rd, 2011, 02:37 PM

Hmmm okay well I will have to rectify that then. Thanks for the clarification.

kkim · April 3rd, 2011, 02:57 PM

the 4mm washers could very well be the cause of a too rich condition, if in fact that's the case here. The larger washers are thicker than the smaller washers. depending on how much thicker, you using two 4mm washers could be as thick as three 3mm washers.

if you do go back into the carbs to reshim (you won't need to pull the carbs), I'd highly recommend you replace those top screws with some Allen head screws.

Cloud Strife · April 3rd, 2011, 03:06 PM

This will be my project for tomorrow then. I'll track down some 3mm washers, reshim, and replace the top screws. Is the Allen for easier removal for future tuning or is there another purpose?

kkim · April 3rd, 2011, 03:15 PM

it's to prevent stripping out those JIS screws on the carbs... unless you are using a JIS screwdriver. are you? if so, you're okay.

and once you strip out those screws, you will be FORCED to remove the carbs to remedy it.

Cloud Strife · April 3rd, 2011, 03:55 PM

I wasn't using JIS. Like most, I used a Phillips and some force. No issues with stripping at all but I really like the idea of replacing the current ones with Allan tipped.

kkim · April 3rd, 2011, 04:10 PM

Do yourself a favor and replace them if you aren't using the proper JIS screwdriver. All it will take is stripping a single phillips head screw and you'll be in for a BIG headache.

Search the forum and you'll find the exact measurements of the Allen screws you need to replace them with.

Cloud Strife · April 3rd, 2011, 04:15 PM

Yeah, I've had the pleasure of dealing with stripped screws on several occasions. This isn't something I want to add to the equation. I'll take a look on the forums for the measurements. Thanks Kelly.

Cloud Strife · April 3rd, 2011, 09:32 PM

For my and others' future reference, the link for discussion on the measurements of carb screws:

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=24285

Cloud Strife · April 4th, 2011, 09:09 AM

Not a single hardware store in the entire city has either 3mm flat washers or 4 x 16 metric Allan tipped screws. Looks like I might have to order in or call on some favours. So silly.

kkim · April 4th, 2011, 11:00 AM

#4 SAE washers will work.

Cloud Strife · April 9th, 2011, 03:10 PM

Update: Synced my carbs today the old school way (tubing and some oil). I also removed one of the washers on each needle and closed the top of the carbs with new screws and washers (since I don't have JIS screwdrivers). Took her for a spin and it seems like the bogginess in the 2500 to 4000 rpm range is gone! Nice and fat now. Looks like I was running rich even after the snorkel removal. I'll still be replacing the washers I have now with 3mm ones (a very generous board member is sending me some).

kkim · April 9th, 2011, 03:19 PM

tuning carbs does take some dialing, but once you get it right, I'm sure you'll be very happy with the results. Steep learning curve, but I think you've handled it well. good job.

Cloud Strife · April 9th, 2011, 03:36 PM

Well it's certainly thanks to you and the other fine people on this board that I am able to do this stuff on my own. Otherwise I would be out who knows how many hundreds of dollars, have a bike that runs sub-optimal, and probably be turned off to the idea of keeping up with the sport.

I can certainly see how this can be a full time job...

kkim · April 9th, 2011, 03:44 PM

the trick is to not to get yourself into a situation where the carbs can get clogged. "Winterizing", for those that store their bikes, may seem like a real PITA when putting the bikes away for the winter, but if you don't, and need to clean out the carbs after each winter, you can see how winterizing is the lesser of the 2 evils.

the ethanol gasolines which are becoming increasingly "popular" in most locations has much to do with carbs gumming up/clogged so quickly.

Cloud Strife · April 9th, 2011, 04:12 PM

Yeah...like I said though, this isn't something that I'm going to let happen again. Once is enough for me. Winterizing doesn't sound like such a chore compared to carb cleaning. I think it's the coming to terms with putting the bike away that turns man people off, haha

Plus, this site has opened my eyes to the many different 'mods' that will keep me entertained by this bike for longer than I thought. So many things to make it run like a higher end machine

Cloud Strife · April 17th, 2011, 07:11 PM

What's the difference between the two Factory Pro jetting kits in terms of the contents? I know one is geared for bikes with the stock airbox and one for bikes with the airbox removed. Do they come with different jet sizes or is there more to the story? I don't want to invest in one if I'm going to remove the airbox shortly down the road. I guess it might be easier to do it all at once, but just weighing options...

kkim · April 17th, 2011, 07:16 PM

I believe the difference is the sizes of the main jets that they include.

Cloud Strife · April 19th, 2011, 07:10 AM

choneofakind was generous enough to send me some 3mm washers because I was unable to find any. Very cool of him. I'm going to start stripping her down and trying out the new ones.

Will keep you posted

Cloud Strife · April 19th, 2011, 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kkim

I believe the difference is the sizes of the main jets that they include.

Thanks Kelly. I'll probably just wait then and kill two birds

Cloud Strife · April 19th, 2011, 02:58 PM

Replaced the 4mm washers that were there with 3mm washers (2 on each needle) courtesy of choneofakind and closed them back up.

Of course, it started raining pretty hard as I was finishing up so I have yet to check the results of the new shimming.

Further, I noticed that the clamp sealing the right carb to the airbox wasn't seated properly. I looked as though the rubber was tucked under as opposed to flat. This might have been the culprit to my earlier problems, assuming it was affecting air flow. Either way, I loosened it, flattened out the rubber, and tightened it back up.

Let's see how it goes...just as soon as the rain stops.

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March 29th, 2011, 07:16 PM	#41
kkim Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: Too much.	well, the shim mod makes the mixture richer in the low to mid range, so maybe you might want to experiment with either adding or subtracting a washer, but would mean opening the carb tops back up. if it's running too rich, you could always just remove the snorkel, but if you're running too lean, that would make the stuttering worse. here's a guideline on fine tuning jetting, though 2 washers in the past have worked great for others with your setup. strange. http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/How_to_...e_your_jetting

March 30th, 2011, 03:04 PM	#42
Cloud Strife Hot Wheels Name: Paul Location: Niagara Falls Join Date: Mar 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2010 Kawi Ninja 250R Posts: 64	Got home from work and took her for a quick rip around. Have some more details regarding how she's running. No problems from 0-2500 RPM at which point it gets choppy. Between 2500-4000 it's rough, hesitant, choppy, but as soon as it hits 4000, it picks up like crazy and no problems right to red line. I'm going to give the oil a change. I know it wont help, but it's the beginning of the season

March 30th, 2011, 03:20 PM	#43
kkim Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: Too much.	couple of things you can try... you choose. remove or add a shim to the needles, though from what you describe it sounds like it might be a bit lean. you can tune the mixture screws to see if that helps. you can remove the snorkel if you think it's running too rich. fillup with regular gas and add seafom to it as per the directions on the can. I would recommended the last one to try first. Your carb setup should be giving you a nice running bike. Perhaps there is still some crud left in the carbs that running the seafom through for a couple of tanks will clear?? dunno, but if you can live with the stutter for a few tanks, I'd suggest going that route.

March 30th, 2011, 03:49 PM	#47
kkim Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: Too much.	have fun.

April 3rd, 2011, 01:25 PM	#48
Cloud Strife Hot Wheels Name: Paul Location: Niagara Falls Join Date: Mar 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2010 Kawi Ninja 250R Posts: 64	Just wanted to update you fine people...removed the snorkel from the girl. Mine was really in there tight so I had to remove the battery and it's housing to get better access but I didn't have to take off the rear fairing. Though it did sound like I was running a but lean, I don't think that was the case. Removing the snorkel didn't make it worse an arguably made it a little bit better. Is it possible that I was running rich after the shimming? Could there have been too much gas getting in in the low range and that's what's bogging it up in the 2500-4000 rpm range? From all the reading I've been doing, it doesn't really see like that's the case but leaning it out by removing the snorkel didn't seem to make matters worse.

April 3rd, 2011, 01:36 PM	#49
kkim Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: Too much.	removing the snorkel should have leaned out the mixture a tad throughout the entire power band, but it has a noticeable effect on the top end. Did you notice that the bike revved out to redline easier and kept pulling a bit better right up to hitting the rev limiter? if your bike is livable at this point, I'd not touch the carbs. If you think you need to lean it up a tad more, and don't want to work on the carbs, installing a low restriction, drop in air filter element would help.

April 3rd, 2011, 01:45 PM	#50
Cloud Strife Hot Wheels Name: Paul Location: Niagara Falls Join Date: Mar 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2010 Kawi Ninja 250R Posts: 64	The bike is 100% livable and definitely had more juice on the top end. Arm stretching even. I'm going to run a few tanks of regular with SeaFoam as recommended and see where it takes me for now. Just out of curiosity, would the fact that I shimmed using 4mm washers have any effect o anything? They didn't have 3mm ones and they seems to sit okay, though a bit big.

April 3rd, 2011, 02:05 PM	#51
kkim Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: Too much.	people have had problems when using 4mm washers when shimming, which is why the shimming instructions are very clear about which sizes to use... 3mm or SAE #4.

April 3rd, 2011, 02:37 PM	#52
Cloud Strife Hot Wheels Name: Paul Location: Niagara Falls Join Date: Mar 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2010 Kawi Ninja 250R Posts: 64	Hmmm okay well I will have to rectify that then. Thanks for the clarification.

April 3rd, 2011, 02:57 PM	#53
kkim Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: Too much.	the 4mm washers could very well be the cause of a too rich condition, if in fact that's the case here. The larger washers are thicker than the smaller washers. depending on how much thicker, you using two 4mm washers could be as thick as three 3mm washers. if you do go back into the carbs to reshim (you won't need to pull the carbs), I'd highly recommend you replace those top screws with some Allen head screws.

April 3rd, 2011, 03:06 PM	#54
Cloud Strife Hot Wheels Name: Paul Location: Niagara Falls Join Date: Mar 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2010 Kawi Ninja 250R Posts: 64	This will be my project for tomorrow then. I'll track down some 3mm washers, reshim, and replace the top screws. Is the Allen for easier removal for future tuning or is there another purpose?

April 3rd, 2011, 03:15 PM	#55
kkim Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: Too much.	it's to prevent stripping out those JIS screws on the carbs... unless you are using a JIS screwdriver. are you? if so, you're okay. and once you strip out those screws, you will be FORCED to remove the carbs to remedy it.

April 3rd, 2011, 03:55 PM	#56
Cloud Strife Hot Wheels Name: Paul Location: Niagara Falls Join Date: Mar 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2010 Kawi Ninja 250R Posts: 64	I wasn't using JIS. Like most, I used a Phillips and some force. No issues with stripping at all but I really like the idea of replacing the current ones with Allan tipped.

April 3rd, 2011, 04:10 PM	#57
kkim Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: Too much.	Do yourself a favor and replace them if you aren't using the proper JIS screwdriver. All it will take is stripping a single phillips head screw and you'll be in for a BIG headache. Search the forum and you'll find the exact measurements of the Allen screws you need to replace them with.

April 3rd, 2011, 04:15 PM	#58
Cloud Strife Hot Wheels Name: Paul Location: Niagara Falls Join Date: Mar 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2010 Kawi Ninja 250R Posts: 64	Yeah, I've had the pleasure of dealing with stripped screws on several occasions. This isn't something I want to add to the equation. I'll take a look on the forums for the measurements. Thanks Kelly.

April 3rd, 2011, 09:32 PM	#59
Cloud Strife Hot Wheels Name: Paul Location: Niagara Falls Join Date: Mar 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2010 Kawi Ninja 250R Posts: 64	For my and others' future reference, the link for discussion on the measurements of carb screws: http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=24285

April 4th, 2011, 09:09 AM	#60
Cloud Strife Hot Wheels Name: Paul Location: Niagara Falls Join Date: Mar 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2010 Kawi Ninja 250R Posts: 64	Not a single hardware store in the entire city has either 3mm flat washers or 4 x 16 metric Allan tipped screws. Looks like I might have to order in or call on some favours. So silly.

April 4th, 2011, 11:00 AM	#61
kkim Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: Too much.	#4 SAE washers will work.

April 9th, 2011, 03:10 PM	#62
Cloud Strife Hot Wheels Name: Paul Location: Niagara Falls Join Date: Mar 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2010 Kawi Ninja 250R Posts: 64	Update: Synced my carbs today the old school way (tubing and some oil). I also removed one of the washers on each needle and closed the top of the carbs with new screws and washers (since I don't have JIS screwdrivers). Took her for a spin and it seems like the bogginess in the 2500 to 4000 rpm range is gone! Nice and fat now. Looks like I was running rich even after the snorkel removal. I'll still be replacing the washers I have now with 3mm ones (a very generous board member is sending me some).

April 9th, 2011, 03:19 PM	#63
kkim Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: Too much.	tuning carbs does take some dialing, but once you get it right, I'm sure you'll be very happy with the results. Steep learning curve, but I think you've handled it well. good job.

April 9th, 2011, 03:36 PM	#64
Cloud Strife Hot Wheels Name: Paul Location: Niagara Falls Join Date: Mar 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2010 Kawi Ninja 250R Posts: 64	Well it's certainly thanks to you and the other fine people on this board that I am able to do this stuff on my own. Otherwise I would be out who knows how many hundreds of dollars, have a bike that runs sub-optimal, and probably be turned off to the idea of keeping up with the sport. I can certainly see how this can be a full time job...

April 9th, 2011, 03:44 PM	#65
kkim Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: Too much.	the trick is to not to get yourself into a situation where the carbs can get clogged. "Winterizing", for those that store their bikes, may seem like a real PITA when putting the bikes away for the winter, but if you don't, and need to clean out the carbs after each winter, you can see how winterizing is the lesser of the 2 evils. the ethanol gasolines which are becoming increasingly "popular" in most locations has much to do with carbs gumming up/clogged so quickly.

April 9th, 2011, 04:12 PM	#66
Cloud Strife Hot Wheels Name: Paul Location: Niagara Falls Join Date: Mar 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2010 Kawi Ninja 250R Posts: 64	Yeah...like I said though, this isn't something that I'm going to let happen again. Once is enough for me. Winterizing doesn't sound like such a chore compared to carb cleaning. I think it's the coming to terms with putting the bike away that turns man people off, haha Plus, this site has opened my eyes to the many different 'mods' that will keep me entertained by this bike for longer than I thought. So many things to make it run like a higher end machine

April 17th, 2011, 07:11 PM	#67
Cloud Strife Hot Wheels Name: Paul Location: Niagara Falls Join Date: Mar 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2010 Kawi Ninja 250R Posts: 64	What's the difference between the two Factory Pro jetting kits in terms of the contents? I know one is geared for bikes with the stock airbox and one for bikes with the airbox removed. Do they come with different jet sizes or is there more to the story? I don't want to invest in one if I'm going to remove the airbox shortly down the road. I guess it might be easier to do it all at once, but just weighing options...

April 17th, 2011, 07:16 PM	#68
kkim Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: Too much.	I believe the difference is the sizes of the main jets that they include.

April 19th, 2011, 07:10 AM	#69
Cloud Strife Hot Wheels Name: Paul Location: Niagara Falls Join Date: Mar 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2010 Kawi Ninja 250R Posts: 64	choneofakind was generous enough to send me some 3mm washers because I was unable to find any. Very cool of him. I'm going to start stripping her down and trying out the new ones. Will keep you posted

April 19th, 2011, 02:58 PM	#71
Cloud Strife Hot Wheels Name: Paul Location: Niagara Falls Join Date: Mar 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2010 Kawi Ninja 250R Posts: 64	Replaced the 4mm washers that were there with 3mm washers (2 on each needle) courtesy of choneofakind and closed them back up. Of course, it started raining pretty hard as I was finishing up so I have yet to check the results of the new shimming. Further, I noticed that the clamp sealing the right carb to the airbox wasn't seated properly. I looked as though the rubber was tucked under as opposed to flat. This might have been the culprit to my earlier problems, assuming it was affecting air flow. Either way, I loosened it, flattened out the rubber, and tightened it back up. Let's see how it goes...just as soon as the rain stops.