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Old May 18th, 2019, 08:21 AM   #1
Kromagg
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First time bike owner in need of some guidance.

Hello all!

I am new to the forum but have been a lurker for a few years now. I bought an EX250 off my coworker a few years back. I got a lot of use out of it for the first year, but lately it's been having trouble. When searching the forum I have found lots of similar threads but none of them have fixed my problem so I was hoping to get some more insight.

I've gotten to the point where my bike starts everytime now and idles perfect. The moment I give any throttle at all the bike will die on me. This happens when choke is on and off. It happens when the bike is cold or warmed up.

Things I have done:

I have replaced the spark plugs and air filter, I have pulled the carbs and did a full cleaning. (Yes the carbs have been fully cleaned I redid my work 3 times to be sure, soaked every part in carb cleaner, shot compressed air through all of the Jets and crevices. You could see through each jet clearly when I was finished.) Now the idle mixture screws on my carb we're messed with so I checked my factory manual and reset them to default. When I pulled the spark plugs I found gas residue on them which indicates to me that the previous owner ran the bike rich.

Fresh carb clean and spark plugs replacement helped the bike idle beautifully in comparison to before but I'm still having the issue where it dies when I try to give it throttle. I'm unsure what my next step here would be and wanted to pick your brains to see if anyone can lend further insight so I can stop racking my brain 24/7 obsessing over it.

THANKS TO ALL THAT MADE IT THIS FAR!

As I stated I'm new to the forum and I know this issue has been posted before, please feel free to link me threads related to my issue if you'd prefer. I've tried searching and read a bunch of threads already but I'm still getting used to the UI of this forum! Thanks again!
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Old May 18th, 2019, 06:12 PM   #2
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Old May 18th, 2019, 06:33 PM   #3
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welcome @Kromagg just what year is this 250? miles?
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Old May 18th, 2019, 06:40 PM   #4
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Thanks!

The 250 is a 2009 and has roughly 9k miles on it.
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Old May 18th, 2019, 06:42 PM   #5
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I know you said you cleared the carbs, and triple checked your work but I'm going to say I think it's going to be an carburetor issue. I have cleaned mine well, and still had managed to have trash in the carb. I am a master mechanic for two different manufacturers, albeit 95% diesel fuel only.
What I'm saying, is it only take that one circuit robbery clogged, even partially, and give your kind of complaint.

Is it due for a valve clearance check?
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Old May 18th, 2019, 07:25 PM   #6
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at the age of 10 years, I'd suggest renewal of all consumables, including float valves, which you did not mention dealing with in your OP.

I employ specialized equipment to assure effective cleaning, kind of removes the human element from certain phases. Prior to completion, I also "wet test", among other things, working fuel levels for accuracy. A certain, long time established member reports his 250 performing impeccably (while delivering 67 MPG) after I did a pro "refurb" of his carbs....successfully done on 1 attempt.

There is much more involved ....but I think I'm adequately qualified to submit, with all due respect, you've missed some element(s) involved somewhere.
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Old May 19th, 2019, 05:56 AM   #7
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So for everyone still claiming they'd clean the carburetor again, how exactly would I get any more thorough? I took every piece out individually and let them soak for hours and then ran high psi compressed air through everything etc. Should I decide take these apart again are you saying I should buy a repair kit and replace the internal parts?
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Old May 19th, 2019, 09:00 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromagg View Post
So for everyone still claiming they'd clean the carburetor again, how exactly would I get any more thorough? I took every piece out individually and let them soak for hours and then ran high psi compressed air through everything etc. Should I decide take these apart again are you saying I should buy a repair kit and replace the internal parts?
Ducatiman is referring to an ultrasonic cleaning...not your average home garage tool...as he said some components cannot be cleaned they should be replaced.

Have you checked for vac leaks?
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Old May 19th, 2019, 10:34 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by 95PGTTech View Post
Ducatiman is referring to an ultrasonic cleaning...not your average home garage tool...as he said some components cannot be cleaned they should be replaced.

Have you checked for vac leaks?
This and replacing the fuel filter are my next steps which will be taken tomorrow afternoon
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Old May 19th, 2019, 11:06 AM   #10
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What fuel filter are you referring to the little screen on the petcock?
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Old May 19th, 2019, 11:07 AM   #11
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What fuel filter are you referring to the little screen on the petcock?
Yeah just the little screen
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Old May 19th, 2019, 03:35 PM   #12
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There is also a screen inside the fuel-line just before carb-inlet.
If this filter is inserted backwards, it gets crumpled and blocks fuel-flow.


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Old May 19th, 2019, 03:39 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromagg View Post
So for everyone still claiming they'd clean the carburetor again, how exactly would I get any more thorough? I took every piece out individually and let them soak for hours and then ran high psi compressed air through everything etc. Should I decide take these apart again are you saying I should buy a repair kit and replace the internal parts?
Carb-cleaner is no longer effective at dissolving dried-petrol varnish due to removal of chlorinated compounds.

In addition to hours in ultrasonic cleaner with radioactive caustic solvents, thorough carb-cleaning requires mechanical scraping with wire and flossing all fuel-circuits. Some people use guitar wire of specific gauges for each type of hole being reamed.

Also needs soda blasting @ 100000psi. For example, did you disassemble emulsion tube and ream out every bleed-hole with tight-fitting wire?



There are guys here who can rebuild entire engine with both hands tied behind their back using their teeth only. And they have had to pull and re-clean their carbs 4-5 times ever more thoroughly before bike ran in factory-fresh condition. If your bike doesn't run like it was when leaving showroom floor, carbs aren't cleaned to factory-fresh condition.
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Old May 19th, 2019, 03:46 PM   #14
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Also inside carb-bodies, there are hidden secret passages that need to be reamed out with wire from end-to-end. Unless brand-new carbs were bought from Kawasaki, it's very likely that these air and fuel-circuits are clogged and not flowing fuel properly. Even cat-hair in vacuum circuit can cause fuel-metering issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by n4mwd View Post
Here are the secret passages in the carbs. They are kind of hard to figure out sometimes and this picture guide will show where they are for cleaning purposes.

Carb Pilot jet Circuit


Carb Main Jet Circuit


Carb Fuel and Overflow Drain


Carb Diaphragm Intake, upper choke and vacuum ports


Carb Choke Circuit
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Old May 19th, 2019, 03:56 PM   #15
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go get 'em, OP
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Old May 19th, 2019, 07:24 PM   #16
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"reamed out with wire from end-to-end"

Still digesting this one, you'd need umpteen sizes of wire and the internal angled twists and turns would seem problematic at least, if not impossible to accomplish. Wire not friendly in any event.

Other effective, safe methods exist, witness the ultrasonic machine, compressor driven media and the latest tech...vapor blasting....extremely expensive equipment.

Cleaning being just one phase of so much more. Diagnostics and troubleshooting...pilot and float system cleaning, setup and testing, adjustments, corrections. The brass tuning components require differing treatment altogether, as do plastic slides and rubber diaphragms. Its NOT one size fits all...not by a longshot.

How 'bout the old stripped head, gorilla'd in place pilot jet? It happens.

I get a kick when I read forum encouragement "carbs are easy, you can do it"....followed by the next post "I cleaned my carbs and now my bike xxxx
(leaks gas/won't start/idle/rev... take your pick)

Of course there is the famous youtube vid of the kid squatting in leaves in the driveway, spray can and toothbrush in one hand, carbs in the other. Removed bowls, spraying, brushing otherwise unremoved innards. Scary stuff....thousands of views.

Apologies...rant over, one Guinness Ultra Stout too many tonight.
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Old May 19th, 2019, 08:36 PM   #17
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Apologies...rant over, one Guinness Ultra Stout too many tonight.
Mmmmmm... Guiness is good. You probably know that I brew beer. You just convinced me that I need to do a batch of stout next.
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Old May 20th, 2019, 02:24 AM   #18
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gordon just finished my carbs and they were a mess. he finds the problem quickly and restores it back to factory new.here is duc's handiwork on reds carbs
before


after




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Old May 20th, 2019, 02:46 AM   #19
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SO glad I don't have a carbed bike anymore. Whew I do not miss carbs one bit.
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Old May 20th, 2019, 02:54 AM   #20
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SO glad I don't have a carbed bike anymore. Whew I do not miss carbs one bit.
going with a lectron carb on klr. only 2 circuits and they use a metering rod
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Old May 20th, 2019, 05:40 AM   #21
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SO glad I don't have a carbed bike anymore. Whew I do not miss carbs one bit.
pros and cons on each. Tons of FI problem posts on a certain Ducati forum, guys have complex problems when mapping or disabling the immobilizer systems, for example.

I recognize modern FI reliable, but WHEN there is a fuel problem, I'll take the relatively simple carb fix anytime. Just IMO.

I've got 2 Ducs...1 carb 1 FI....I shudder to think of an FI problem, as a result of what I've read...I'm leaving the FI, immobilizer and ECU alone....NO modding, NO mapping...NO TOUCH!

Ducati carbs (Mikuni BDST38) no problem
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Old May 20th, 2019, 06:07 AM   #22
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Damn too many features "for our own good" that makes EFI more complicated and troublesome than necessary. Get rid of any "feature" that doesn't have to do with squirting fuel and setting off spark. Things like immobilizers, traction-controls, DBW, etc. And stick with 2000 regulations that required auto-makers to allow you to remap your ECU. After all you bought it, and it belongs to you. None of this SAS that Microsoft is pushing! I love advancement of technology and all labour & time-savings that come with it, but leave Big Brother out!!!
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Old May 20th, 2019, 06:20 AM   #23
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Alright so after I finish work today I am going to keep inspecting for issues. I'm going to further inspect my gas tank and hoses, inspect my petcock and fuel filter (might even install an in-line to help show if debris are getting stuck in transit.) If all else fails I'll be taking the carbs out again to give them another clean. Anybody have any advice as to what cleaner I can use to get the best results if carb cleaner can't be trusted to remove all gunk? Thanks for your guys help. I am determined to get this thing back on the road for this amazing weather we have been having ��
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Old May 20th, 2019, 10:14 AM   #24
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pros and cons on each. Tons of FI problem posts on a certain Ducati forum, guys have complex problems when mapping or disabling the immobilizer systems, for example.

I recognize modern FI reliable, but WHEN there is a fuel problem, I'll take the relatively simple carb fix anytime. Just IMO.

I've got 2 Ducs...1 carb 1 FI....I shudder to think of an FI problem, as a result of what I've read...I'm leaving the FI, immobilizer and ECU alone....NO modding, NO mapping...NO TOUCH!

Ducati carbs (Mikuni BDST38) no problem
i have never had a fuel injection problem, and that goes for the vehicles i work on at the dealership, and personal cars. one of my cars, the daily ride, a honda has 500,000 plus miles and its 99% original. down to the fuel pump. lol.. i think carbs are easier to mod and hot rod vs FI, but for daily, stock use, give me fuel injection any day.
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Old May 20th, 2019, 10:48 AM   #25
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(might even install an in-line to help show if debris are getting stuck in transit.)
I put see-through pleated paper filters all my motorcycle fuel lines. That tiny screen that comes in the little Ninjas isn't much of a filter, and can get clogged pretty easily.
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Old May 20th, 2019, 11:02 AM   #26
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I put see-through pleated paper filters all my motorcycle fuel lines. That tiny screen that comes in the little Ninjas isn't much of a filter, and can get clogged pretty easily.
because they are doing their job, I present this pic....note the sandy debris which this filter prevented from further travels. Hey if that much junk is running through the petcock screens and into a further filter....something desperately needs to be addressed UPSTREAM (possibly in the tank?) Stones, rocks, tree limbs, birds, small children, construction debris... should not be present at all. Start at the tank and work downstream from there.
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Old May 21st, 2019, 01:01 PM   #27
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So today I noticed something that I probably should have noticed a long time ago. Correct me if I am mistaken but my fuel petcock should only operate on a vacuum system? My petcock when in the ON position is leaking fuel when I remove the supply hose. I'm sure I read somewhere that the new gen shouldn't release any fuel with the bike off and in the ON position. Could this be the source of my issues? Engine flooding perhaps? Appreciate the insight I've gotten thus far. Determined to get back on the road. Will return with further notes.

Last futzed with by Kromagg; May 21st, 2019 at 04:55 PM.
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Old May 25th, 2019, 07:02 AM   #28
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So today I noticed something that I probably should have noticed a long time ago. Correct me if I am mistaken but my fuel petcock should only operate on a vacuum system? My petcock when in the ON position is leaking fuel when I remove the supply hose. I'm sure I read somewhere that the new gen shouldn't release any fuel with the bike off and in the ON position. Could this be the source of my issues? Engine flooding perhaps? Appreciate the insight I've gotten thus far. Determined to get back on the road. Will return with further notes.
That needs to be addressed. No fuel flow when engine off. Leaking diaphragm likely. Replace whole petcock
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Old May 25th, 2019, 07:35 AM   #29
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That needs to be addressed. No fuel flow when engine off. Leaking diaphragm likely. Replace whole petcock
amen, replace or rebuild (testing afterward if rebuild)
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Old June 25th, 2019, 02:35 PM   #30
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It's been a busy few weeks but I have finally gotten the new fuel petcock in. My bike does sound and idle so much better. I am still having the initial problem however, the moment I open the throttle the bike does out. I will mention also that while the choke is applied the bike only idles around 2000-2500 rpms. Today I have once again for what feels like the 100th time pulled the carbs out. I have taken them apart and plan on letting them soak overnight before blowing them out with air. Upon visual inspection I cannot seem to see a single thing out of place. I will post some pics of the carbs apart when I get home from work. I am at such a loss for what could be causing my problem lol As always any insight would be much appreciated.
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Old June 25th, 2019, 03:56 PM   #31
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This link has a few photos of the carb. Maybe someone can spot something I am not.

https://drive.google.com/folderview?...vBCTjWdvv3mj69
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Old June 25th, 2019, 04:41 PM   #32
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Just a thought but have you checked the condition and adjustment of the air screws underneath the carb that are so hard to adjust when the carbs are installed. They have a very fine end that can break off and if the “O” ring is damaged or the small flat washer that holds the “O” ring in place under the spring is missing they can leak and cause problems. I mention them because I didn’t see them in your pictures so wonder if you have taken them out to check?
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Old June 25th, 2019, 05:48 PM   #33
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Just a thought but have you checked the condition and adjustment of the air screws underneath the carb that are so hard to adjust when the carbs are installed. They have a very fine end that can break off and if the “O” ring is damaged or the small flat washer that holds the “O” ring in place under the spring is missing they can leak and cause problems. I mention them because I didn’t see them in your pictures so wonder if you have taken them out to check?
I have just pulled them out now as I missed them earlier but they seem to be in tact, o rings and all look good. I have added a pic to the shared folder. Passages appear debris free and clean.
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Old June 25th, 2019, 06:20 PM   #34
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Those are jets that are debris free and clean?
How did you "clean" them?
Did you clear fuel-circuits which delivers petrol to jets?

It's like garden hose with spray-nozzle at end. You can clean spray-nozzle all you want, but if there's something clogging along hose, you won't get proper spray volume.

There is absolutely zero fluid that you can soak that will dissolve dried petrol varnish. It's basically plastic. Only way to clear is mechanical reaming and flossing with appropriately sized strong wire. Cut guitar wire at 45-degree angle to make tool for clearing out holes. For example, every little bleed hole in emulsion tube and pilot jet needs to have matching-sized wire pushed through to shove out plastic plug of dried fuel. I'll even drip Kool-aid through end of those and verify that every bleed-hole "bleeds" out properly.



As shown in photos above in post#14, you also need to floss out holes that lead to venturi of carb as well (green dots). That's where fuel flows after it leaves jets.


Please see following links for more details and photos of what needs to be done.

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=333573
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=333176
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=334365
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=330213
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=330960
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=323737
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=323452
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=322846
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=321223
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=317977
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=317810
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=316395
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=315193
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=299855
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=280658
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Old June 26th, 2019, 05:17 AM   #35
95PGTTech
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Name: Chris
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Simply send them to Gordon. I’ve tried every imaginable DIY way of cleaning carbs and if they are truly really bad, there is nothing other than buying brand new parts or his sonic cleaning that is going to get the job done well. You’ll spend half a season chasing your tail like me
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Old June 27th, 2019, 01:10 PM   #36
Kromagg
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Name: Wes
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Join Date: May 2019

Motorcycle(s): Ninja EX250R

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She runs! Found one my needles was placed inside of the spring holder plastic piece. Must have accidentally placed them in backwards. Either way, she runs great now. Thanks for all your help guys.
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