A couple newbie questions

[Snoman13]

These questions seem like ones where there's lots of info out there, but I think I may be getting confused seeing as there's always conflicting opinions.

First of all, after ~1000 KM's (600 miles) is it alright to switch over to full synth for the first oil change? Bought the bike second hand and I'm doubting that it was changed at all so I wanted to do it asap.

Second, when riding along lets say in 3rd or 4th gear and then I start coming up to a stop. Is it harmful at all to roll off the throttle then pull the clutch in and coast to a stop with the brakes and downshift just while coasting or do riders need to go through the entire downshifting process every stop?

I'm still very new to riding, but it seems like if I was in 4th or something then needed to stop, that the whole process to downshift to first completely takes a pretty long time and also doesn't necessarily activate the brake lights since you're slowing down already by downshifting/engine braking.

Thanks in advance for your help and sorry about the questions that I'm sure you've answered a million times already.

[Anthony_marr]

Originally Posted by Snoman13

These questions seem like ones where there's lots of info out there, but I think I may be getting confused seeing as there's always conflicting opinions.

First of all, after ~1000 KM's (600 miles) is it alright to switch over to full synth for the first oil change? Bought the bike second hand and I'm doubting that it was changed at all so I wanted to do it asap.

Second, when riding along lets say in 3rd or 4th gear and then I start coming up to a stop. Is it harmful at all to roll off the throttle then pull the clutch in and coast to a stop with the brakes and downshift just while coasting or do riders need to go through the entire downshifting process every stop?

I'm still very new to riding, but it seems like if I was in 4th or something then needed to stop, that the whole process to downshift to first completely takes a pretty long time and also doesn't necessarily activate the brake lights since you're slowing down already by downshifting/engine braking.

Thanks in advance for your help and sorry about the questions that I'm sure you've answered a million times already.

About downshifting multiple gears without engaging the engine, no problem whatsoever. In fact, if you overuse engine engagement, you'll just wear out the clutch faster.

[kkim]

I waited till I had 1000 miles before I switched to a full synthetic. I'd recommend you do the 600 mile oil change w/ a conventional oil and switch over to a synthetic later on.

[Anthony_marr]

Originally Posted by Anthony_marr

About downshifting multiple gears without engaging the engine, no problem whatsoever. In fact, if you overuse engine engagement, you'll just wear out the clutch faster.

Just make sure that you don't downshift to too low a gear for your current speed and engage the engine too sharply, or you might lose rear traction.

[beowuff]

Originally Posted by Snoman13

First of all, after ~1000 KM's (600 miles) is it alright to switch over to full synth for the first oil change? Bought the bike second hand and I'm doubting that it was changed at all so I wanted to do it asap.

I waited till 5,000 miles to switch to synthetic. The thing about synthetic is it tends to be more slippery. GOOD for your engine and transmision. Potentially NOT good for your clutch. The general idea is that you need to wear in the clutch plates a little before going synth so they don't slip when engaged. This is why most Ducatis ship with synth from the factory. Many of them have dry clutches, so synth doesn't affect them.

Still, some people go synth well before I did. My bike has no issues, btw, and burns no oil. It also doesn't have that many miles on it

Originally Posted by Snoman13

Second, when riding along lets say in 3rd or 4th gear and then I start coming up to a stop. Is it harmful at all to roll off the throttle then pull the clutch in and coast to a stop with the brakes and downshift just while coasting or do riders need to go through the entire downshifting process every stop?

I USUALLY only use the breaks to stop while holding in the clutch and shifting down through the gears. I only use engine breaking on really slow stops when I might need to hit the gas before coming to a complete stop. So, this should not be harmful at all. If your worried about it, make sure you change your oil regularly to help keep the gears and clutch plates slick.

[rockNroll]

Originally Posted by Snoman13

These questions seem like ones where there's lots of info out there, but I think I may be getting confused seeing as there's always conflicting opinions.

First of all, after ~1000 KM's (600 miles) is it alright to switch over to full synth for the first oil change? Bought the bike second hand and I'm doubting that it was changed at all so I wanted to do it asap.

Second, when riding along lets say in 3rd or 4th gear and then I start coming up to a stop. Is it harmful at all to roll off the throttle then pull the clutch in and coast to a stop with the brakes and downshift just while coasting or do riders need to go through the entire downshifting process every stop?

I'm still very new to riding, but it seems like if I was in 4th or something then needed to stop, that the whole process to downshift to first completely takes a pretty long time and also doesn't necessarily activate the brake lights since you're slowing down already by downshifting/engine braking.

Thanks in advance for your help and sorry about the questions that I'm sure you've answered a million times already.

1. Synthetic oil will be fine but there's always a debate on oil-related issues. Seems general consensus is that it's better to use conventional oil for the first oil change. I change oil in my new bikes at 100 miles, then again at 500, then 1000... switching to synthetic at the 1000 change. If you look close, you might be amazed at all the crap that comes out with the first couple oil changes.

2. There's nothing wrong with pulling the clutch and downshifting multiple gears without releasing the clutch between them. Be sure that your speed is low enough for the gear you're in when you release the clutch (If you're slowing down and then taking off again without fully stopping).

[Jerry]

Originally Posted by Snoman13

These questions seem like ones where there's lots of info out there, but I think I may be getting confused seeing as there's always conflicting opinions.

You hit the head on the nail there...these are opinion questions, nothing wrong w/ that...ask for opinions, use the ones that make sense.

Originally Posted by Snoman13

First of all, after ~1000 KM's (600 miles) is it alright to switch over to full synth for the first oil change? Bought the bike second hand and I'm doubting that it was changed at all so I wanted to do it asap.

My opinion is to wait. Change the oil frequently, and it's not that big a deal what you use. I haven't noticed a big difference either way.

Originally Posted by Snoman13

Second, when riding along lets say in 3rd or 4th gear and then I start coming up to a stop. Is it harmful at all to roll off the throttle then pull the clutch in and coast to a stop with the brakes and downshift just while coasting or do riders need to go through the entire downshifting process every stop?

I'm still very new to riding, but it seems like if I was in 4th or something then needed to stop, that the whole process to downshift to first completely takes a pretty long time and also doesn't necessarily activate the brake lights since you're slowing down already by downshifting/engine braking.

While there's certainly no harm to the bike in pulling the clutch and stopping that way, my *opinion* is that it's not the best way. If you are a new rider, it's not a bad idea...riding a motorcycle gets pretty "busy" when stopping, and the important thing is to stop. If you are more comfortable eliminating the "busyness" do it that way for now. But my *opinion* is to try to do it better...some thoughts...

--The rear wheel can lock up pretty easy on this bike, and it will do it more easier without the motor turning it.

--It's pretty easy to lose track of what gear you're in, and letting out the clutch in a too-low gear can also get the bike pretty squirrely

--If you do decide to 'go-not-stop' you really want to be in the right gear for your speed, not too high (lugs the engine, no acceleration) or too low (skids the back wheel)

--The bike is harder to shift when stopped, if you end up stopped in third.

--It just sounds cooler

Short term, do what works best for you...long term, learn to shift down as you go

Originally Posted by Snoman13

Thanks in advance for your help and sorry about the questions that I'm sure you've answered a million times already.

We all love newbies questions, they make us feel smart

And welcome

[karlosdajackal]

If I was driving a manual car and doing my driving test I'd fail straight away if I coasted at all with the clutch in. Maybe the last meter (3 feet) you might get away with.

When you have the clutch pulled and you are moving you are not fully in control of the vehicle you can feel it especially if your turning at all. When stopping normally work your way through the gears. When doing an emergency stop just use the brakes and forget about the gears until the bike is almost completely at a stop then pull the clutch only to stop an engine stall.

But a stall and stopping in time is much better than perfect sequential gear changes and not stopping quick enough. If you can't keep up with the gear shifts on regular stops, either your stopping to quick or your gear change technique needs some practice. And what better way to practice then by doing it.

[ScraitT]

When coming to a stop, I hold the clutch in and slowly shift down through the gears as I reach the appropriate speeds so that IF i needed to go, I'm in the right gear. There's no reason to let the clutch out while going through the gears aside from added stress on the clutch.

In my car, I'm in neutral as I approach a stop, but my hand is on the shifter ready to shift to the appropriate gear...slightly different then a bike. Going through the gears while stopping in a car is pointless.

The MSF teaches that even in an emergency stop you should be shifting down with the clutch held in...though the primary concern is stopping.

[minuslars]

1. Opinion question. Some people say you should wait till 5000 miles to switch to full synth, since the engine parts are still wearing in. Previous owner of my bike switched to synth at 2800 miles, no problems.

2. I tend to downshift, it retains the option to 'get up and go' without tripping over the gearbox if the situation arises. The exception is if I'm doing an emergency stop or if I'm coming to a definite stop. A red light is not always a definite stop. Nothing wrong with coasting to a stop though. If you work the clutch and throttle right and match RPM's, it shouldn't cause excessive wear on the clutch, since it's lubricated.

There are varying opinions on whether engine braking causes excessive wear and tear. On a dry clutch it's no question, more clutch engagements and disengagements cause clutch wear. On our lubricated clutch, it's a bit more debatable. With matching speeds though, it shouldn't be a big deal in either case.

[CC Cowboy]

Porsches come with Mobile One from the factory.

They probably put over 1000 miles on them during factory testing though.

[beowuff]

Well, cars are quite a bit different from bikes. But most bikes have a few miles put on them at the factory too.

There's a great show on Discovery called "Twist the Throttle" that show cases a different company each show. I've seen the Kawasaki, Suzuki, Yamaha, Ducati, Aprilla, MV Agusta, Bimota, and even an A* episode. It's pretty interesting because they show the history of the company and how they make the bikes. You'd be surprised how much they run the engine before they even put it in the bike!

The odometer is only how many miles the bike has AFTER the engine is put in the frame.

Anyway, everything I've heard about oil and bikes that I am going to follow can be summed up here. Is it right? Well, it's worked for me so far...

1) More important then dino or synth is to change your oil regularly!
2) Change the oil several times during the first 1,000 miles. Sometime around 50, 200, 500, 1,000. then follow the regular oil change schedule.
3) Start with dino and switch to synth between 3,000 and 5,000 miles.

For a different bike, I'd use a similar schedule but modified slightly to take into account the maintenance schedule and clutch type.

If you really want to rile people up, ask about break in procedures! :P

[OldGuy]

Alex you've got the word on the oil - change now and get at least a 1000 before going to syn.

As for the shifting I'm with the downshift crowd for the simple reason I always want to be in a gear that will not upset the bike and if I need some torque I know it's there. In an emergency stop you can get the bike down shifted into first gear without any problems if you a) make a habit of always being in first gear when you come to a stop and b) practice. One of the drills and scored practical factors my MSF has was an emergency stop from third gear and you had to be in first when you stopped.

[DarkNinja52]

i just got out of the break in period, its my first bike and ive been riding for about two months from what ive seen... as long as you don't drop the bike you really cant do any harm to it. my bike runs fine and i really had no clue what i was doing for a while. you really can't mess anything up unless you really try to... like if you think that something is loose and then you tighten it and then your rear brakes doesnt work.. dont ask... i fixed it, lets leave it at that.

just learn to ride safely, your not going to harm the bike. just dont leave the choke on for more than a few minutes other then that dont crash, crashing sucks

[karlosdajackal]

Page 40 of the Euro manual for the bike in the section "How to Ride the Motorcycle" it has a section called Braking, quoted in full the 5 bullet points below.

* Close the throttle completely, leaving the clutch engaged (except when shifting gears) so that the engine will help slow down the motorcycle
* Shift down one gear at a time so that you are in 1st gear when you come to a complete stop
* When stopping always apply both brakes at the same time. Normally the front brake should be applied a little more than the rear, shift down or fully disengage the clutch as necessary to keep the engine from stalling
* Never lock the brakes, to it will cause the tires to skid. When turning a corner, its better not to brake at all. Reduce your speed before you get into the corner.
* For emergency braking, disregard downshifting, and concentrate on applying the brakes as hard as possible without skidding.

Then on page 42 we have "Stopping the Motorcycle in an Emergency"
"Your Kawasaki Motorcycle has been designed and manufactured to provide you the optimum safety and convenience. However in order to fully benefit from Kawasaki's safety engineering and craftsmanship, it is essential that, the owner and operator, properly maintain your motorcycle and become thoroughly familiar with its operation. Improper maintenance can create a dangerous situation known as throttle failure. Two of the most common causes of throttle failure are:
1. An improperly service or clogged air cleaner may allow dirt and dust to enter the throttle body and stick the throttle open
2. During removal of the air cleaner dirt is allowed to enter and jam the throttle body.
In an emergency situation such as throttle failure, your vehicle may be stopped by applying the brakes and disengaging the clutch. Once this stopping procedure is initiate, the engine stop switch is used, turn off the ignition switch after stopping the motocycle."




So there you have it from the horses mouth. If you throttle is stuck open, pull the clutch otherwise don't coast. Downshift so you are already in first when you stop.

The point of this is when you come to a stop you will have your right foot on the rear brakes stopping you rolling up or down a hill, your left foot on the ground stopping you falling over. When you go to start again you will already know your in first and can gently apply throttle, gently release clutch and balance that with a gently release of the rear brake at the same time without every rolling on the hill and without ever putting your right foot down.

Same way you use a handbrake on a manual transmission car when starting on hill. Same principle applies, stop the vehicle while in full control, never allow the vehicle to roll on the hill, get it going again without rolling backwards or forwards due to the hill.

[Jerry]

Originally Posted by DarkNinja52

... like if you think that something is loose and then you tighten it and then your rear brakes doesnt work.. dont ask... i fixed it, lets leave it at that.

Now you got me curious...I don't ever mind sharing my mistakes, if I think somebody else can learn from them...

What'd ya do??

C'mon....share?

[DarkNinja52]

i noticed that my right rearset was loose, so i tightened it up a bit. also noticed a cable near it that 'seemed loose' i assume it was the rearbrake cable (i also now assume its not supposed to be very tight either)
so what i did was just tried to tighten it but apparently it adjusted the amount of slack the rear brake had
so i tried to tighten it and didnt seem to notice it getting tighter so i just kept playing with it ::
long story short the rear brake felt a little different and required to be pushed much more in order for it to do anything useful, so i kind just played with it some more, it works fine now but im not sure what i did
so there you are, if it aint broke don't fix it... just make sure you know its not broken though... you can also just live by "if it aint broke don't break it" or in this case "don't *brake* it" hahahah oh man i need to start getting more sleep

[beowuff]

Originally Posted by DarkNinja52

oh man i need to start getting more sleep

Or more coffee...

Since we're sharing, I learned REALLY quick how important a torque wrench is after I broke a few bolts on the bike thinking they weren't tight enough...

Get a torque wrench! It doesn't take many broken bolts till the wrench pays for itself!

[Sailariel]

Originally Posted by beowuff

Or more coffee...

Since we're sharing, I learned REALLY quick how important a torque wrench is after I broke a few bolts on the bike thinking they weren't tight enough...

Get a torque wrench! It doesn't take many broken bolts till the wrench pays for itself!

Definitely on the Torque Wrench! As builders get more into light alloys, carbon fibre, etc., a torque wrench is essential. They are not that expensive unless you get into digital LCD readouts. I could not work on bicycles without one. I have three--1/4",3/8", and 1/2". I have not stripped a bolt since I became a torque wrench convert. On Synthetic Oil, there are a lot of ideas out there. Let me add to the confusion. For the first thousand miles, change frequently. 50, 100, 300, 600, 1000. Then 1300, 1600, 1900, and so on. Change to synthetic when you are sure your engine is broken in (and that is the million dollar question) I felt that my engine was fully broken in at 4000 miles or so. I changed to Shell Rotella-T 5W40 Synthetic. The only difference I felt was that the bike shifted more smoothly and the engine seemed to be slightly more responsive (no scientific data here--just a subjective opinion) As for downshifting---I do a lot of it because it is rare that my engine shows less than 7000RPM---I tend to run 8000Rpm or better. Then again, that is MY riding style. There are few rights and wrongs in motorcycling, so you are free to let your creative juices flow. People like motorcycling for that freedom. The only non-negotionatiable thing with me concerns gear. A good helmet, jacket, riding pants, and gloves, are essentials. The questions you brought up are good ones---certainly important ones. Ride Safe.

[Sailariel]

Alex from Oakville, Ontario. We used to belong to the Bronte Harbour Yacht Club back in 1985. Alex

[Jerry]

Originally Posted by Sailariel

I changed to Shell Rotella-T 5W40 Synthetic. The only difference I felt was that the bike shifted more smoothly and the engine seemed to be slightly more responsive (no scientific data here--just a subjective opinion)

A little more oil *opinion*...(I tried to stop myself from posting more oil talk, but couldn't....does it ever end?)

I've tried Castrol Synthetic, and thought the same, but as the oil aged, it seemed to loose this slick-shifting feel.

I've gone back to dino, and feel that the slick shifting effect is due more to fresh oil, than type of oil...

As I blather, blather, blather....

[Jerry]

Originally Posted by DarkNinja52

i noticed that my right rearset was loose, so i tightened it up a bit. also noticed a cable near it that 'seemed loose' i assume it was the rearbrake cable (i also now assume its not supposed to be very tight either)
so what i did was just tried to tighten it but apparently it adjusted the amount of slack the rear brake had
so i tried to tighten it and didnt seem to notice it getting tighter so i just kept playing with it ::
long story short the rear brake felt a little different and required to be pushed much more in order for it to do anything useful, so i kind just played with it some more, it works fine now but im not sure what i did
so there you are, if it aint broke don't fix it... just make sure you know its not broken though... you can also just live by "if it aint broke don't break it" or in this case "don't *brake* it" hahahah oh man i need to start getting more sleep

I can't figure out what you adjusted, (I have a Pre-Gen, so I can't just go look) but I didn't think there's a cable on the rear brake...Did you figure out what it was?

Post a pic of the cable...??

[DarkNinja52]

Originally Posted by Jerry

I can't figure out what you adjusted, (I have a Pre-Gen, so I can't just go look) but I didn't think there's a cable on the rear brake...Did you figure out what it was?

Post a pic of the cable...??

i'll take a picture tomorrow during the day time, also need to take a pic of the chain slider.

im not quite sure what i adjusted either but i know where it is so ill show you and hopefully someone will be like "oh yea thats the flux capacitor-johnson rod, just don't ever touch it"

[DarkNinja52]

Originally Posted by Jerry

I can't figure out what you adjusted, (I have a Pre-Gen, so I can't just go look) but I didn't think there's a cable on the rear brake...Did you figure out what it was?

Post a pic of the cable...??

took some pics, im pretty sure its attached to the rear brake,
it never really seemed to tighten or loosen up, idk what i was doing
its the third connection you see in these pictures, all the way to the right

[tjkamper]

Is it the Brake Pedal Position Adjuster?

See attached image from the service manual.

[DarkNinja52]

dont think it had anythign to do with position, just tightness of the pedal - requiring more/less force to apply brakes

can anyone confirm this?

[tjkamper]

Is it maybe an adjuster to the spring? I see that the spring hooks up right underneath it.

[DarkNinja52]

Originally Posted by tjkamper

Is it maybe an adjuster to the spring? I see that the spring hooks up right underneath it.

yea you might be right, i was looking at the spring as well earlier today

well anyways, thats where its located in case anyone is curious about what i accidently did or wants to play around with it themselves

[Jerry]

I'm pretty sure that's the brake light switch.

It's adjustable, in case you change the position of the brake pedal.

Turn it CCW (looking from the top) and the light will come on earlier when you push the pedal. Turn it too far, and you're brake light won't go out..too low,and the light won't come on.

you might want to check your brake light, using the back brake pedal.

[tjkamper]

That is it Jerry!!!!

I just walked out to my bike and it only has two lead wires that run up to the Rear Brake light connection. It has a little spring that runs down to the pedal.

The stupid Manual completely leaves it out. When you look it up under electrical, it refers you to periodic maintanance; when you look it up in periodic maintanance, it refers you to electircal.

[tjkamper]

The switch has a little spring that conectes to the pedal, but I doubt that spring would tighten up or lossen response on the break as it is probably only 18 gauge. I'm sure it is there just to take pressure off of the switch when the pedal is fully engaged.

Be sure to inspect the spring to make sure you didn't over strech it. If it was fully extended, then I can see the pedal feeling stiffer, and possible damage to the switch. But it does seem unlikely.

[noche_caliente]

It is the brake light switch - the spring went missing when my rearset broke last year - it was interesting trying to replace the thing when there were like NO pictures of it anywhere to show me how to put it back on....

[Snoman13]

So, the oil change didn't go too well...

In retrospect, I probably should've YouTube'd how to properly use a torque wrench before attempting it.

My assumption was that when it reached the set torque amount, it'd pop free and then the handle would just travel freely. This is apparently not the case. I kept tightening and tightening and still no pop that I was waiting for. After getting planted with two feet and then getting ready, I rip on the handle and "POP" I just shattered my new $150 torque wrench and as a result now know I have the oil filter cap on WAY WAY *WAY* too tightly.

The amount of force I tightened it with needed a 4 foot breaker bar to undo my retardation.

So, now, best case scenario; I need a new wrench. Worst case, new wrench and new oil pan

G*ddam*it.

[noche_caliente]

That sucks Alex - was it a craftsman that you can replace for faulty workmanship? Of course, I don't think that works on torque wrenches anyway...

[Snoman13]

Nope. Got it from NAPA.

Anyone know off hand how much new oil pans run?

[kkim]

picture of what you call an "oil pan"?

[Snoman13]

Sorry, I'm probably using the wrong term, but I thought I remembered reading somewhere that if you overtighten the oil filter bolt that it would crack the "oil pan" on the bike.

Any truth to that statement?

[kkim]

you'll crack the oil filter cover, not the engine case. there is no "oil pan", which is why I was asking for a picture of the broken part so there is no mistake of what we are talking about.

[Snoman13]

Ah, that makes way more sense, seeing as that's the part you're putting the forces on.

So if I pull it and inspect it, and it looks fine, should be all good to go? It would be simple as leak=busted, no leak=all's cool?

[kkim]

which part are we talking about?