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Old August 26th, 2021, 05:55 PM   #1
vani11a
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Starting issue. PLZ Help

I have bought a 2017 Ninja 300 with approx. 7400 miles from auction. I got it for a steal but the only downside is that it had no key. So I bought an aftermarket ignition. I think it goes without saying....but $50 wasted. I learned about just bypassing ignition because well I just wanted to ride already. So I did the resistor thing, changed the oil and spark plugs. I've checked all grounds and fuses. I can now hear the fuel pump priming. So when I start it it will run for a half second or enough to get two and a half purs and bam...just shots off. But it will only start if I start it as the fuel pump is priming. Anyone have any ideas as to what it might be? I just want to ride it already.

Last futzed with by vani11a; August 26th, 2021 at 05:57 PM. Reason: added details
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Old August 27th, 2021, 05:24 AM   #2
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Maybe power isn't getting to the fuel pump after it does its prime routine.
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Old August 27th, 2021, 06:53 AM   #3
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Or the ignition/resistor combo isn't right.
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Old August 27th, 2021, 11:07 AM   #4
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1. Measure crank-sensor/pick-up coil's impedance to verify sensor is OK.
2. Check pick-up coil spacing to flywheel triggers
3. Inspect crank-sensor waveform.
4. Measure MAP-sensor output key ON, bike not running. What is this voltage?
5. Measure MAP-sensor output voltage when cranking. What is this voltage?

ECU blindly injects fuel & fires spark when cranking to start. Then it looks for proper sensor signals from crank-sensor, MAP-sensor, TPS, etc. . If ANY these is not within spec (mis-adjusted), it turns off engine. Fastest, easiest and simplest way to troubleshoot and fix this is to look at output waveform of crank-sensor with oscilloscope and measure MAP/TPS with voltmeter. This is literally 5-minute fix with oscilloscope & voltmeter!
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Old August 27th, 2021, 11:54 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
1. Measure crank-sensor/pick-up coil's impedance to verify sensor is OK.
2. Check pick-up coil spacing to flywheel triggers
3. Inspect crank-sensor waveform.
4. Measure MAP-sensor output key ON, bike not running. What is this voltage?
5. Measure MAP-sensor output voltage when cranking. What is this voltage?

ECU blindly injects fuel & fires spark when cranking to start. Then it looks for proper sensor signals from crank-sensor, MAP-sensor, TPS, etc. . If ANY these is not within spec (mis-adjusted), it turns off engine. Fastest, easiest and simplest way to troubleshoot and fix this is to look at output waveform of crank-sensor with oscilloscope and measure MAP/TPS with voltmeter. This is literally 5-minute fix with oscilloscope & voltmeter!
I did measure resistance on the stick coils and they're within spec...but that's about it pertaining to your very intricate list. Lol. Seems like I'm going to need to purchase an oscilloscope in the foreseeable future. I have checked the actual voltage of the grey anti-theft wire, while killswitch is on and also while trying to start. To my understanding while attempting to start it needs to be approx. 10v. Mine will start out at around 12.8v then when I press the starter, it dips down to 10.2v or so but immediately jumps back up in the 12.6v+ range. I really just need to find a stock ignition. They just seem to difficult to find...and if people hotwire these things then why can't I seem to get the resistor thing right?
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Old August 27th, 2021, 11:57 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple Jim View Post
Maybe power isn't getting to the fuel pump after it does its prime routine.
You know I was wondering that exact thing. Is it possible for the fuel pump to still prime properly but not operate normally? But before I put the resistor in line with the grey anti-theft wire, the fuel pump wouldn't even prime. I'm stumped...
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Old August 27th, 2021, 12:04 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vani11a View Post
I did measure resistance on the stick coils and they're within spec...but that's about it pertaining to your very intricate list. Lol. Seems like I'm going to need to purchase an oscilloscope in the foreseeable future. I have checked the actual voltage of the grey anti-theft wire, while killswitch is on and also while trying to start. To my understanding while attempting to start it needs to be approx. 10v. Mine will start out at around 12.8v then when I press the starter, it dips down to 10.2v or so but immediately jumps back up in the 12.6v+ range. I really just need to find a stock ignition. They just seem to difficult to find...and if people hotwire these things then why can't I seem to get the resistor thing right?
Not ignition-coils. Crank-sensor pick-up coils inside engine that's triggered by bumps on flywheel.

Your aftermarket ignition-switch works fine if ECU is priming pump.

Are you sure you're measuring grey-wire properly?
Draw picture of how you have that 100-ohm resistor wired in (or take photo & post).
Did you cut grey wire completely so you have 2 free ends?
Then connect 100-ohm resistor to those free ends? Might actually need 200-ohm resistor.
It needs to be 10v or less before you crank engine.
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Old August 27th, 2021, 12:06 PM   #8
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After initial prime, ECU only turns on pump when it sees engine spinning.
This behavior comes out of FMVSS-108 regulations in 1992.
You don't want to be trapped inside flipped over vehicle after crash and have petrol-pump continue to merrily pump fuel from ruptured lines onto hot-exhaust until tank is dry...

How does ECU know engine's spinning???

Also measure resistance of IAT at room-temperature and boiling at ECU connector. This sensor being disconnected will prevent ECU from starting engine. Very common to have left off after replacing air-filter.

Measure state of tip-over sensor.

Get service-manual. Follow all procedures for measuring & testing sensors to a T. Somewhere along way you'll find fault and fix it without replacing single part.
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Old August 27th, 2021, 12:55 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
After initial prime, ECU only turns on pump when it sees engine spinning.
OK, that's what I was getting at without knowing the details that could cause the problem. Yes, if the crank sensor isn't sensing the engine spinning, then the pump would not get power after the initial prime. That sounds likely.
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Old August 27th, 2021, 02:11 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
Not ignition-coils. Crank-sensor pick-up coils inside engine that's triggered by bumps on flywheel.

Your aftermarket ignition-switch works fine if ECU is priming pump.

Are you sure you're measuring grey-wire properly?
Draw picture of how you have that 100-ohm resistor wired in (or take photo & post).
Did you cut grey wire completely so you have 2 free ends?
Then connect 100-ohm resistor to those free ends? Might actually need 200-ohm resistor.
It needs to be 10v or less before you crank engine.
I'll take a picture..Yeah actually last night I went ahead and put 2x 100 ohm resistors in-line. Let me snap a picture real quick. I really appreciate the tips. I'm new to bikes, always been a car guy. But this kinda fell into my lap. I have a 2018 Triumph Bonneville Bobber but haven't had a single issue. BRB with pic
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Old August 27th, 2021, 02:57 PM   #11
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So I cut the grey wire(anti-theft) before and after connector leading to ignition and ECU. I put 2x 100 Ohm resistors in line with the grey wire, then plugged the connection in like normal. Then the brown and grey wire on one pole of the toggle switch and the green 12v on the other. Then just connect all the rest(only when starting) with the other orange 12v wire.
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Old August 27th, 2021, 03:56 PM   #12
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Good grief, you don't need two big power resistors! It takes only one 1/4 watt or 1/8 watt 100 ohm resistor tucked up under the ignition switch.
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Old August 27th, 2021, 05:39 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vani11a
So I cut the grey wire(anti-theft) before and after connector leading to ignition and ECU. I put 2x 100 Ohm resistors in line with the grey wire, then plugged the connection in like normal. Then the brown and grey wire on one pole of the toggle switch and the green 12v on the other. Then just connect all the rest(only when starting) with the other orange 12v wire.
no, remove toggle switch completely. You are bypassing resistors completely with switch and sending 12v directly to ECU. Might as well not have then at all. Should look like this:

ign.switch -> grey -> 100-ohm -> 100-ohm -> grey -> ECU

No other wires of any kind involved! You want to remove ANY non-stock wiring and have just above connections. 2x resistors and that's it.

Where does that grey wire with open end in upper-right of 1st photo go?
What is voltage on grey wire just before ECU?

Also DO NOT use wire-nuts! They are not reliable and will fail in X-amount of time due to vibration and leave you stranded. All connections must have following 3 components:

1. mechanical strength - knot or air-free crimp
2. electrical conductivity - soldered joint
3. weatherproofing - sealed from elements with water-tight connectors or adhesive heat-shrink wrap

Right now, it's toss-up as to whether your wiring is correct or have bad connections. It could very well be that you've got circuit correct, but connections are just bad. You will not find this kind of connection in pro-motorsports, aerospace or military wiring for a reason.

Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; August 28th, 2021 at 07:15 AM.
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Old August 28th, 2021, 09:02 AM   #14
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ok, here's what you need to do to get bike running:

1. remove ALL non-stock wiring. Get rid of toggle-switch and ALL extra wiring

2. restore OEM wiring. There's disconnected wires everywhere, put them back to original locations. Such as this dangling grey wire. It's integral part of ECU circuit, why is it disconnected?



Also this brown/white wire. Why is it disconnected? All these wires carry power and should be insulated. You may have already touched them to engine/frame and caused short that may have blown something



3. Need to pull ALL fuses and measure them. If I had penny for everytime I heard "fuse looks Ok", but actually didn't conduct electricity...



4a. install 100-ohm resistor into ignition switch. If your aftermarket ignition switch has provision for jumper, install 100-ohm resistor there.



otherwise...

4b. install 100-ohm resistor inline on grey wire. Nothing extra needed, no extra wiring or switches needed. Example of soldering, don't use this exact value resistor.



Bike ran perfectly fine with OEM wiring when new leaving showroom floor. It will run just fine again when wiring is restored to OEM condition.

Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; August 29th, 2021 at 12:00 PM.
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Old August 28th, 2021, 09:56 PM   #15
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The grey wire was cut from both sides of the connector so I had a little more room to work. Hopefully tomorrow I'll have time to do this correctly, I'm working a lot. I'll let yall know how it does. Also this is was temporary wiring until I got it running that's why it looks all crazy.
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Old August 29th, 2021, 11:51 AM   #16
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Is there alarm/immobiliser on this bike?
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Old August 29th, 2021, 11:56 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
4b. install 100-ohm resistor inline on grey wire. Nothing extra needed, no extra wiring or switches needed

Just don't use a resistor with those color bands. It looks like a 0.18 ohm resistor!
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Old August 29th, 2021, 11:59 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple Jim View Post
Just don't use a resistor with those color bands. It looks like a 0.18 ohm resistor!
ah yes, example of wiring inline resistor only! thx
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Old August 29th, 2021, 01:36 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vani11a View Post
The grey wire was cut from both sides of the connector so I had a little more room to work. Hopefully tomorrow I'll have time to do this correctly, I'm working a lot. I'll let yall know how it does. Also this is was temporary wiring until I got it running that's why it looks all crazy.
It's best to do it right and permanent way 1st time around because you'll only have to do it once and it will work 1st time around. Least amount of time wasted for most durable and highest longevity of repair. Here's schematic for how ignition is wired on 250. The 300 has slightly different colour wires, but only wire we want to touch is grey wire between ignition switch and ECU. Notice this wire is continuous between ign-switch to ECU with no breaks.



Here's how to get bike running, failure to follow each step to T will result in bike NOT running:

1. orient bike in north-south orientation with nose aimed north. Post photo of compass on tank showing nose aiming north. Remember Earth has electro-magnetic field that affects all electronics that operates near it. You want to give your work every advantage and chance of success by orienting in direction that "bleeds" the least when wires are cut and end are exposed.

2. remove tank for easy access to wiring, post photo with tank off

3. remove ALL non-OEM wiring: toggle-switch, all extra non-OEM wiring, all wire
nuts. Post photo showing OEM ig-switch connector with cut-ends on grey, brown/white and any other wires you may have cut. Each and every wire has purpose; bike won't run if a single wire is disconnected.

4. repair all cut OEM wires with proper western-union/linesman knot, followed with soldering and adhesive heat-shrink weather-proofing wrap. Leave just one cut on grey wire for inserting 100-ohm resistor. Here's video on how to do proper wire-joining repair; slide piece of heat-shrink wrap over before tying. No need for pre-tinning on larger-gauge wires. Knot should be tight and precise enough for 5-lb pull before soldering:

Link to original page on YouTube.

5. Then install 100-ohm resistors in-line with one remaining cut on grey wire after all others have been repaired. Use proper western-union/linesman knot on resistor legs as well. Don't forget to slide on adhesive heat-shrink wrap before knotting.



6. verify your work by back-probing grey-wire where it goes into ECU connector with key ON. What is voltage?


Idea is you want to restore wiring back to at least OEM spec quality, if not better. These bikes have enough problem with wiring and connector corrosion as it is with cheap specs for fast production, you don't want to make it worse.

Sure, there's 10000x different ways to do this that will "work". Above procedure is one way that is guaranteed to work 100% 1st time around and will last for decades. Remember,

"There never seems to be enough time to do it right 1st time around, but there's always time to do it AGAIN! Often times on side of road in total darkness and rain!!"


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Old August 31st, 2021, 04:41 PM   #20
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Okay I rewired everything ack to stock/oem specs. I checked the voltage of grey wire before ECU while kill switch off and key ON position. It's reading 10.28V. Then when I hit the starter it drops down to 9.6V....so I checked the battery and 12.4V so needless to say it's now charging. I'm crossing my fingers but if within spec then lets me atleast have a good foundation for further troubleshooting. Thank you DannoXYZ
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Old August 31st, 2021, 04:55 PM   #21
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12.4 isn't too bad. 12.2 is still 60% charged.

https://www.rebel-cell.com/knowledge...-of-batteries/
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Old August 31st, 2021, 05:55 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vani11a View Post
Okay I rewired everything ack to stock/oem specs. I checked the voltage of grey wire before ECU while kill switch off and key ON position. It's reading 10.28V. Then when I hit the starter it drops down to 9.6V....so I checked the battery and 12.4V so needless to say it's now charging. I'm crossing my fingers but if within spec then lets me atleast have a good foundation for further troubleshooting. Thank you DannoXYZ
You're welcome and good job! Yeah charge up battery for 24-hrs on trickle-charger. Should be about 13.5v fresh off charger and 12.6v after resting 24-hrs or so.

Seems grey wire may not be dropping voltage enough. Perhaps replace with 200-ohm resistor or add that 2nd one right after 1st.

Next would be monitoring voltage at fuel-pump connector and seeing if ECU turns on pump when you crank.

If not, we'll want to examine output waveform of flywheel pick-up coil. Sometimes, it may just be corroded connectors or bad wiring along way.
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Old September 1st, 2021, 07:50 PM   #23
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I'm still getting the same issue...the pump will prime and it will start for half a second. Also after I hit the starter and it cranks it shuts off and flashes CEL but no codes.
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Old September 1st, 2021, 10:31 PM   #24
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Is fuel pump getting power when you crank?
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Old September 2nd, 2021, 02:21 PM   #25
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Is fuel pump getting power when you crank?
I'll check when I get home.
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Old September 5th, 2021, 09:40 AM   #26
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Okay the fuel pump is getting 11.8v it fluctuates between 11.8v and 12.2v. AHHH I don't know what to do.
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