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Old October 19th, 2015, 06:36 AM   #1
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3 riders, 1 bike, 1 day, 3 crashes

Title about sums it up, yesterday's endurance race was a screwed up day for me and my team. Bike is pretty banged up but all 3 riders from my team are uninjured and I am very thankful for that. Pictures are coming soon

full story below:

I did well in the sprint race on saturday running a personal best time by improving to 1:42 from 1:44.5 and secured a 3rd overall for the season behind @gogoKawi in second and chet in first

It was crazy, just last race weekend a 1:42 would have been very competitive but everyone got so much faster and started running 1:38s

and that was saturday on the dunlop alpha 13s

Sunday started out cold, very cold. Ice on the ground cold
I switched my tires to a set of bridgestone BT003rs takeoffs in the morning and set the pressures to 28/28 cold (I'll be coming back to this, I think these tires need warmers too but I'm not sure)

I also stiffened up the rear preload as I realized it wasn't on max, this made a huge difference to the rear

two changes at the same time means I'm not sure which one caused the issues, I believe it to be front tire pressure but I'm not quite sure as the stiffer rear would also make the front looser (I think)

so I go out on it, the front feels blatantly wrong but I chalk it up to the cold and hand it off to my teammate for practice telling him that the tires grip but the front takes a long time to warm up properly

He makes it to T3 before the front goes, breaking a rearset and bending a bar. The fairings were scratched up too but it only made the bike look more consistent side to side

He, without my asking, went off and purchased a set of vortex rearsets (****ing A man) and helps me install them which is well above and beyond what I ask of my teammates if they do cause damage to my bike
another rider goes down and breaks his right rearset so I gave him my stock one for no charge (which I already received from another rider for no charge, community rearset right there hahaha)

we get the bike fixed up just in time for the endurance race start
summary of our condition for the day up to that point:
I have had 2 good laps at pace all day
one of my teammates has 2 corners on the bike all day
the other didn't get to ride it

I go off and immediately fall off pace in lap 1 as I can't trust the front end and I feel it slipping everywhere, I end up battling for 5th or 6th while simultaneously battling to keep the bike on two wheels. There were many points where I should have realized that the problem wasn't going away, as I had to have added heat to my tires at that point, and pitted out ending the race early.

I made it 6, almost 7 laps before tucking the front in T10 at 75-80mph. I did everything humanly possible to try to save it and stayed with the bike propping it up slightly with my elbow and knee for almost the entire distance between T10 and T11 before coming apart and rolling in the dirt. My camera was rolling but it hit the ground and the force must have caused the recording to fail, I wish I had video of it :/

The bike had minimal damage, not even a bent bar due to my attempts to save it across the slide distance. The new rearset was ground down and bent in slightly but that was it, my helmet was broken as well and my suit has holes in it now which is more serious than the bike's damage at the time.

We decide to give it another go for a mid-pack finish as it was early in the race and I was already up 2 laps on one of the riders and 1 lap on another when I went off so we could still go for not last and save the day

My final teammate went out on the bike, completed one lap then got to T9 on his second lap and was off pace as he was planning to pit in and give the race up due to fear of tucking the front. I do not disagree with that decision, what happened in T9 though was bad very bad.

The racers in first and second came through, the racer in first did a clean pass but the racer in second ended up smashing right into my teammate at ~115mph causing them both to go flying. It was one of those scary crashes where you just know there's no way it ended well

both bikes came out of it relatively fine, my teammate was uninjured but bell...left in an ambulance and I have no idea how bad it was beyond knowing that he went through his leathers.

The bike is fixable, the list of parts it needs is shockingly short

new handlebar
new fairings (both sides, just gonna put some hotbodies on there)
new shift rod (rearset is fine (ground down) but the shift rod broke)

basically these bikes are tanks
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Old October 19th, 2015, 06:45 AM   #2
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Two notes

One: the 110 003RS front is not a tire I like. Even in good conditions and temps with the right pressures - the front just doesn't feel good to me. The 140 rear is a GREAT tire. I really really liked the 003Pro race DOT 120 front and the 003RS 140 rear. The rear tire wore great, gripped great, and never needed warmers. I ran the rear at 24-26 cold I think.

The front should have been decently close at around 28 lbs cold and doesn't need warmers. And at 7 or 8/10s it feels pretty good. But wick it up to 9-10/10s and it is squirmy and feels a bit unpredictable. If the A13 is anything like the other Dunlops then they are decently stiff carcass tires with a good deal of feedback and can be leaned on pretty hard - do that on the 110 RS and yeah ........

Just my $.02. I would buy a 140RS rear again in a heartbeat - I may not run a 110RS if someone gave it to me - not at race pace.

*quick edit* - it is also possible that the additional preload in the rear pushed the bike up on its nose a bit more and loaded the front more as well which would only add to the front tires concerns
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Old October 19th, 2015, 06:54 AM   #3
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Those are my thoughts as well, the rear felt flawless but the front felt terrible. I could drag knee on it without issue once I had heat in it but once I started going for race pace lean angles it just went all over the place.

When I did lose it I lost it on closed throttle no brakes...

If I could go back I would still do the preload adjustment but I would have kept the dunlop front on and only changed the rear
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Old October 19th, 2015, 07:19 AM   #4
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The fairings were scratched up too but it only made the bike look more consistent side to side
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Old October 19th, 2015, 07:21 AM   #5
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I can actually still use the fairings with some zip ties

custom paint scheme, definitely earned and paid for
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Old October 19th, 2015, 08:10 AM   #6
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Man thats quite the read.. Luckily you guys came out whole. I'm imagining a very dark and depressing day it must've been
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Old October 19th, 2015, 08:13 AM   #7
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There's a guy who rides with TTD who has a gloriously Frankensteined fairing. His windshield cracked in half so he just used two dozen zipties to put it back together. Looks JUST like the monster.

Zero f**ks given. Love it.
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Old October 19th, 2015, 08:22 AM   #8
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That sucks Ben but glad for a non injury day for you and your team. Hope the rider that had to be transported comes out for the best.

Cold Icy cold weather track riding secret: cold fork oil can make the front feel wooden, completely unresponsive and want to tuck at a moment's notice. I know the 250 isn't very adjustable on the fly like that either. And warmers won't help.
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Old October 19th, 2015, 08:41 AM   #9
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Snuggle up the night before so your bike will be warm when you hit the track.

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Old October 19th, 2015, 09:27 AM   #10
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Man thats quite the read.. Luckily you guys came out whole. I'm imagining a very dark and depressing day it must've been
It was bad, but the worst is the nagging feeling that all of it was my fault and I ended up getting someone seriously hurt by letting a bike I knew wasn't competitive back out. The collision wouldn't have happened if I had decided to call it a day after my lowside

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That sucks Ben but glad for a non injury day for you and your team. Hope the rider that had to be transported comes out for the best.
I'm hoping for the best for him as well, bikes can be replaced but people can't
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Old October 20th, 2015, 04:12 PM   #11
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Ben, I wish the best for you teammates recovery! Have you gotten any news?
I can only imagine that heavy feeling you have. It is easy to get caught up in the excitement and competition that we may lose sight of the safety factor. Was this the first time, racing in this condition?

Do you have any suspension mods up front of the bike?

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That sucks Ben but glad for a non injury day for you and your team. Hope the rider that had to be transported comes out for the best.

Cold Icy cold weather track riding secret: cold fork oil can make the front feel wooden, completely unresponsive and want to tuck at a moment's notice. I know the 250 isn't very adjustable on the fly like that either. And warmers won't help.
Chris, this was something that I recall Rolan @Somchai pointed out a while back when he had a former tech set up his front suspension. Would you consider monitoring your oil/fork temps at the track in different temperature conditions and do a brief study? It also has me pondering if colder temps have lesser effects with Ricor Intiminators than Racetech's gold valve emulators. @InvisiBill @choneofakind.
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Old October 20th, 2015, 04:25 PM   #12
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Bell (the racer that collided into my bike) is jacked up, broken clavicle and scapula (badly broken) along with the ribs on his left side, his suit failed so his shoulder is rashed up pretty good as well.

we have people looking for his gopro, I'll link footage when he uploads it after it's found

everyone on my team is fine, steve (the rider that was riding my bike when bell smashed into it) has some bruising and I jacked up my elbow in my lowside but nothing is broken for either of us (jamil sustained no injuries in the first place for his lowside) I was only injured due to my refusal to allow the bike to go down. I slid with it holding it up with my body for about 100-150ft

I have no modifications to the front of my bike
first day running those tires, no prior testing with them but I was out of rubber and the set I requested did not show and I had no choice but to run them rather than the tires I wanted
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Old October 20th, 2015, 04:37 PM   #13
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Sure Cuong, I will see what I can do.

What I can tell you now is when the outside temp has been a sustained sub 40 degrees, (aka overnight) and the bike has been left outside. I can feel a difference until about 50 degrees. Of course this is on my bike's setup. I will start making some notes and it will give me a reason to use Kevin's fancy laser temp gadget. lol

My gut tells me it will be mostly on the oil weight and valves. When I notice the bike actin' a fool and I suspect temps of the fork oil, I normally take a lb or 2 of pressure out of the front so the tire can flex and eat up the little stuff as the suspension can't react fast enough. I aint saying it's right... it just works for me.

On the r6 (where I feel the temp difference even more), I open up the damping a click or two until the temps warm up for the day (about 48 on that bike).

And for full disclosure, the only reason I know this stuff about my bike right now is because of the all the cold weather days I have put in at Putnam Park. Scraping frost off your windscreen before heading out for a session aint no joke. lol It's freaking cold!!!!
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Old October 20th, 2015, 04:50 PM   #14
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Thanks Chris! I remember you mentioning your fancy laser temp reader some time ago and you're the go-to guy with all your records of changes/mods/tuning of your bikes! LOL

I found some great info to share in regards to oil viscosity and temperature: http://www.peterverdone.com/wiki/?ti...spension_Fluid

Basically, never go off the oil weight on the label but look at data specs and look at the oil viscosity. Also, the higher the VI (viscosity index) the better the oil is at staying at the same viscosity throughout large changes in temperatures.
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Old October 20th, 2015, 05:09 PM   #15
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Thanks Chris! I remember you mentioning your fancy laser temp reader some time ago and you're the go-to guy with all your records of changes/mods/tuning of your bikes! LOL
Good thing I like pressure, lol



Thanks for the link and sorry for the threadjack Ben, maybe the data can be of help for you next season.
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Old October 20th, 2015, 05:16 PM   #16
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useful data like this is always welcome

I run a few cold days myself and can never seem to get comfortable on a cold track like I can on a perfect 85 degree day
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Old October 20th, 2015, 05:26 PM   #17
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useful data like this is always welcome

I run a few cold days myself and can never seem to get comfortable on a cold track like I can on a perfect 85 degree day
Tell me about it... cold tires on a cold track with cold temps makes it hard to have some real fun on and off the track.

I don't wanna get into a bunch of skills and other stuff I do on cold days here, so perhaps it's for another thread as there isn't much on cold weather track days like there is stupid hot days. In fact, I will create that thread now.

Hope everyone heals up well, Bell sounds pretty hurt, nothing life threatening but definately life altering for a time.
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Old October 20th, 2015, 05:31 PM   #18
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Hope everyone heals up well, Bell sounds pretty hurt, nothing life threatening but definately life altering for a time.
Bell is the only person truly injured from the day, he will heal and he will be back. The guy is the definition of a fighter. Long term he should have a full recovery but he's not going to be able to do much for a few months

had you seen the crash you'd be amazed at how lucky he was that it wasn't worse, wasn't good either but it was the fastest corner on the track (on a 300)
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Old October 20th, 2015, 07:17 PM   #19
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It also has me pondering if colder temps have lesser effects with Ricor Intiminators than Racetech's gold valve emulators. @InvisiBill @choneofakind.
No idea, I'm not a big cold weather rider. Also not one to really push the front end if/when I do ride in the cold. Does perk my interest a little thought.
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Old October 20th, 2015, 07:34 PM   #20
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^ I would presume no, I believe in theory the bigger impact would be oil weight
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Old October 20th, 2015, 07:42 PM   #21
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^ I would presume no, I believe in theory the bigger impact would be oil weight
Well, the temps have a huge impact on viscosity. I'd imagine it wouldn't be LESS of an impact with the intiminators, it would just behave as if I put 10W or 15W in the intiminators, similar to how a standard damper rod fork feels.
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Old October 20th, 2015, 07:50 PM   #22
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Well, the temps have a huge impact on viscosity. I'd imagine it wouldn't be LESS of an impact with the intiminators, it would just behave as if I put 10W or 15W in the intiminators, similar to how a standard damper rod fork feels.
ah, sorry my brain stopped working today

I did hit my head (doubt I actually have a concussion) on sunday, and more importantly I just took 3 exams and completed 2 projects within the last 14 hours...

I need a
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Old October 20th, 2015, 07:53 PM   #23
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Try 6. That will make the hurts go away more betterer.
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Old October 20th, 2015, 07:54 PM   #24
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and maybe some of that
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Old October 21st, 2015, 06:41 AM   #25
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Well, the temps have a huge impact on viscosity. I'd imagine it wouldn't be LESS of an impact with the intiminators, it would just behave as if I put 10W or 15W in the intiminators, similar to how a standard damper rod fork feels.
So it would have the exact same effect with GVEs on rebound for sure as the emulators do not effect the rebound circuit of the damper. On the compression side I do feel as though there would be a difference between the rod and the GVE. The GVE works just like the rod at low velocities, using orifice holes to control fluid movement. When the damper velocity increases, big bump/square shaped bump/whatever the GVE then has the shim/valve that gives way.

Obviously this is more or less two curves if viewed via force/velocity graph. The shape of the curves and their deviation points are going to be influenced by the viscosity of the oil and the preload sping on the shim and the deflection of the shim under load. Since the relationship in orifice damping is force increasing with the square of velocity, the more viscous fluids during compression will see a greater range of difference in a rod vs a GVE.

CLIFF NOTES: when looking at viscosity changes effecting dampening between a GVE equipped bike and one without, you will see the exact same effect on rebound, and on compression there will be a difference (more dampening) with cold fluid on both but the effect will be less on the GVE equipped bike.
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Old October 22nd, 2015, 10:34 AM   #26
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The shim-based Intiminators inherently use thinner oil also. It's not completely universal, but the lower weight oils listed at http://www.peterverdone.com/wiki/?ti...spension_Fluid seem to have higher VIs in general (indicating less viscosity change based on temperature). Based on what I know about motor oil, I would also assume that synthetic fork oil would also have a higher VI and be less susceptible to temperature changes.

If you're using a higher weight, non-synthetic oil in your forks and it works perfectly at warm temps, I would expect it to have a higher degree of extra stiffness in the cold, compared to using a lower weight, synthetic fork oil. Just switching to a high-VI synthetic version of your existing oil might be enough to give you more consistent performance on colder days.
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Old October 30th, 2015, 01:53 PM   #27
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Old October 30th, 2015, 01:56 PM   #28
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