Group Riding Preventative Maintainence

[CycleCam303]

Group rides are fun. But while more is merrier, this also means we need to look for warning signs with riders that we aren't familiar with.

Look at @RandomPhantom thread about a group ride crash here

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=138816

I ride with different many different groups and just last weekend I saw the red flags that the rider in front of me is going to make a mistake or worse crash. Like many other safety related advices, preventing a situation or putting yourself in an advantaged spot is key.

Last weekend we hooked up with 6 people and 4 I have never ridden with before. I wasn't sure of anyone's abilities so I lagged near the back. I kept it pretty tight so a 1.5 second distance tops from the sv650 in front of me more or less. As we started to hit the corners I instantly starting noticing the first of the red flags. The guy on the sv650 was letting a bit of a gap open up after every turn. After a few corners he started to get on the gas harder and rev the bike out more to close the gap on the straights. Along with that I noticed my 1.5 second gap would turn into my front tire being about 5ft away from his rear at the entrance and mid corner. Also this is starting slight congestion because I'm having the zx10 behind me getting really close during corners also.

When you see a rider having to make up time on the straights and braking really hard the first thing I do is start changing my gap to 2 seconds on the straights. You have limited traction for braking during corners and if the person up front is charging the corner they most likely will be over braking and they won't be as predictable. This also controls the rider behind you because by holding a smoother pace acceleration and braking wise, you lessen the accordion effect.

Aside from giving space this is a sign that a rider can't hang. But it doesn't mean that they are riding over their head...yet. Im trying to stay predictable for the guys behind me so I close the gap on the corners back to my 1 to 1.5 second gap which opens up as the sv650 in front is whacking the throttle on the straights.

The next indications that a rider is going to make a mistake is a combo of watching line and body English. This is a bit harder to spot for the inexperienced but there are some easy giveaways. If a rider is making multiple corrections, like standing the bike up halfway through a corner and leaning back over again, or going wide enough to start crossing the double yellow lines on the corner exit, you need to get some distance and start assuming the worst ASAP.

This particular sv rider wasn't quite doing that but was making the more subtle I'm going too fast gestures. His braking was hard, abrupt, and getting a little too late. His turn in let him start missing apexes and I knew he was over cooking corners because even with the extra gap I have him I was having to slow mid corner while catching up really fast. I started to brake a bit earlier and less aggressively because I was assuming that his entrance speed was getting erratic and slower.

Two important points regarding the above. Remember that running up on the rider in front of you can pressure the rider. Try to look for clues along with not showing the rider a wheel mid corner or during braking. This makes people really uneasy and can scare someone into a crash. The other is that if you see any of the above signs you have to start riding your own ride and throw the idea of following the person in front of you out the window. Try to look through them and understand that their lines and braking points will be wrong and inconsistent along with surprising the people behind you.

The dead ringer and what I saw the sv650 rider do that made me totally back off was his body English. During the higher speed sweepers he was hanging off aggressively but then right to or before the apex he would straighten his arms and move his upper body center instead of towards the inside. I started slowing down and the zx10 passed me not realizing what I was seeing. Again in the next sweeper he pushed the bike downwards during a slight decreasing radius turn. The zx10 backed off and we put a 5 second gap right before the road tightened up. You have to watch for stiffening of the body or arms. Especially drastic body postitioning changes. Nothing says I'm scaring myself and I'm probably going to crash then what that.

Sure enough the sv650 got on the brakes really late almost crossing into the opposite lane while turning right and to compensate he turned too much put both tires in the dirt shoulder and almost rode off the cliff. Scared the **** out of himself and blew the line for the following downhill left.

The zx10 rider told him to go to the back and stop trying to ride with the pack. Luckily no one crashed. But I highly suspect that what tragically happened to randomphantom could have been prevented because running wide and whacking a wall is true sign of riding beyond your comfort zone. I'm sure that the warning signs were there.

@rojoracing53 can add more because I know he saw the some warnings with my riding and with ktm ken.

Stay safe out there.

[RandomPhantom]

Cameron i truly appreciate what u've done by creating a thread like this. U are notifying and making sure other inexperienced riders out there wont make the same mistake that i have made and unfortunately for me i paid the price. But this is definitely a great learning experience for me as i will always remember this event and that i hope my example and accident can b something that all forums members and other lurkers out there that stumble upon this thread can learn from and be educated and aware of. I hope u guys dont get sucked into another riders pace. Especially if u have never been to a canyon before and u are already spooked going into a couple corners too hot. NEVER EVER think about trying to catch up to who's in front of u. Its a canyon ride not a race out there guys. and the risk of spooking the rider from behind and causing him and whoever else is behind u to crash as well is just not worth it all.

Cameron again i thank you for taking ur time writing this up and letting everyone that comes across this know about what to look out for.

Stay safe out there guys and i wish u all the best of luck. Im not going to b riding for a long time after this as my parents and family members now oppose any slight interest in me even thinking about going back on a motorcycle again. And i could have easily been seriously injured or killed as well because of this stupid move on my part. So again read this thread carefully and remember what the main point that cameron is trying to get across here.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by CycleCam303

Group rides are fun. But while more is merrier, this also means we need to look for warning signs with riders that we aren't familiar with.

The next indications that a rider is going to make a mistake is a combo of watching line and body English. ..........

Very good thread, Cameron !!!

You could add some hand signals.

[rojoracing53]

Originally Posted by Motofool

Very good thread, Cameron !!!

You could add some hand signals.

I don't think hand signals would be all that effective for the most part. Most of this is on the assumption that the rider in question doesn't know they are about to make a mistake themselves. If you are leading and see the signs in your mirror then by all means toss up a hand sign to signal the rider behind you to chill out. If you are behind the rider then a hand sign just won't be seen unless you pass the rider, good luck passing someone you think is about to crash while only using 28HP

I think I may have used hand signs from in front of Cam a few times but its hard to recall.

[rojoracing53]

The signs that Cameron was displaying while trying to keep KTM Ken and my self behind him were as he described. Slightly blown apexes but only by a 1-2', trail braking to deep into the turn limiting his lean angle and stiff body English showed that he was uncomfortable. If I could have told him to slow down and let us pass I would have but from 20' back all I could do was wait for him to concede to his shortcomings hopefully before it was to late. If it was just the two of us and he started riding like that in front of me then I would most likely just back way off all at once because then he'd see I was missing and wonder what's up.

Racing is the best place to study the signs of a rider riding over they're head. First most racers are pushing they're limits 100% of the time on the track because that's how you get faster. Some will take it to far and that's what we call riding over your head. People who don't race and even most that do think that racing is just the faster guy beating the slower guy, but its not. There is a huge mental game played between riders at the top levels and the one with the most experience or talent is always always going to have the edge.

So while your following "ANYONE" on track you studying them for weaknesses you can exploit when given the chance. This is by far the best place to learn the tattle tail sign of a rider who's going to make a mistake because 1. It's a safer controlled environment and 2. You'll have so many more chances to study the signs.

Cameron said racing in the 24hr endurance was great for learning this because after the first 8 hrs everyone was tired and making mistakes here and there. So it became a race where the fastest rider was the one who could read the next mistake of rider in front them better then the next guy.

With the level of experience I have I can ride for several hours strait in these races while keeping my lap time consistent to within a few tens of a second all the while making multiple passes per lap. It's because this has become second nature to me that the switch is always on so any time I'm on the road wether it be car or bike, I'm always reading the intentions of the people around me in hopes of taking the advantage by predicting what they're going to do before they know them selves.

Maybe we should have titled this thread "The signs"

[cuong-nutz]

Originally Posted by rojoracing53

I don't think hand signals would be all that effective for the most part. Most of this is on the assumption that the rider in question doesn't know they are about to make a mistake themselves. If you are leading and see the signs in your mirror then by all means toss up a hand sign to signal the rider behind you to chill out. If you are behind the rider then a hand sign just won't be seen unless you pass the rider, good luck passing someone you think is about to crash while only using 28HP

[CycleCam303]

While some street riders think that street specific experience is the best, more often than not my racing experiences always keep me alive and much safer.

Spirited group riding always involves elements of racing. For all the reasons I posted and more. That's why people who race or spend a lot of time on track are converts to the whole idea of taking it to the track will make someone a much superior rider.

[funky_beatz]

First, my apologizes if I posted this in the wrong area-
As a newbie I have gone on some group rides and I insist on being last in the pack (as my skills are not as honed as more experienced riders). I try to give 3 count (or more depending on roads & the way the person in front of me is riding) so I can keep a steadier pace.
On 1 particular ride they had 1 member in the back and 1 pace car behind him. On a downhill twistie, a bike went down - luckily he was semi ok (just missed hitting a mile marker post) - it was at that time the member that brought up the rear of us told me I was keeping too much distance and needed to ride tighter to the group.
Can someone explain to me the reason? I thought I was being responsible by staying in the back and out of everyone's way.
Any input would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks- funky

[cuong-nutz]

Originally Posted by funky_beatz

On 1 particular ride they had 1 member in the back and 1 pace car behind him. On a downhill twistie, a bike went down - luckily he was semi ok (just missed hitting a mile marker post) - it was at that time the member that brought up the rear of us told me I was keeping too much distance and needed to ride tighter to the group.
Can someone explain to me the reason? I thought I was being responsible by staying in the back and out of everyone's way.
Any input would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks- funky

The sweeper--Last guy in the pack-- is "responsible" for making sure there are no stragglers. He should know the planned route and assist those who are falling behind. In your case, it just sounds like the sweeper was in a hurry and just wanted to keep up with the rest of the group. Perhaps, he didn't know the route and didn't want to lose them.

On our rides, we put emphasis on all riders to not ride past their abilities/comfort zone and that everyone will wait at each stop/intersection until everyone arrives.

[rojoracing53]

Originally Posted by funky_beatz

First, my apologizes if I posted this in the wrong area-
As a newbie I have gone on some group rides and I insist on being last in the pack (as my skills are not as honed as more experienced riders). I try to give 3 count (or more depending on roads & the way the person in front of me is riding) so I can keep a steadier pace.
On 1 particular ride they had 1 member in the back and 1 pace car behind him. On a downhill twistie, a bike went down - luckily he was semi ok (just missed hitting a mile marker post) - it was at that time the member that brought up the rear of us told me I was keeping too much distance and needed to ride tighter to the group.
Can someone explain to me the reason? I thought I was being responsible by staying in the back and out of everyone's way.
Any input would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks- funky

First off if your truly not comfortable with riding closer then you already were then let then know so. If it seems to be a problem with that group then try a different one till you become more comfortable doing so.

First off if we're talking a section of hwy or road with little to no turn(not a canyon) then most group tend to like to ride in the staggered pattern described I the DMV handbook with about 30' or so to the guy directly in front of you and half that distance to the guy in the next line in front of you.

Now if we're talking canyon roads aka fun stuff
The reason for following a bit closer say 30'-50' is so the group doesn't get so stung out. And understand that normally the sweep(guy riding in the back) is a more experienced rider so when something happens they know exactly what to do. At the same time the sweep is probably going 30% as fast as he'd like but since he's such a nice guy he volunteered to be back there to keep you guys safe. So if he wants to be able to watch more then just one rider hanging back so far that everyone else is nearly out of sight then I'm sure you can understand where he's coming from.

But like I said earlier if your just not comfortable with follow close then don't and let them know. If you doing it out of some misguided rule then think about what you think would be best and go with that. If your following to closely then yes your at greater risk so you have to find your balance.

It's not uncommon for our sweep in our rides to come in a full minute behind the rest of the group because then were keeping an eye on that one rider just starting our in group rides. We never seem to have a problem with it but we will switch out the sweep from time to time at stops so they can have a little fun up front as well

[funky_beatz]

Thank you rojoracing53 for the information. I did tell them that I was uncomfortable but he said I had to close the gap. Maybe it was the group, maybe it was the individual, maybe it was the fact someone went down & we were all waiting for an ambulance for him which can cause anxiety- who knows - but understanding from a different point of view (ie: sweeper's responsibility of watching a lot of the back end) is very helpful
Thank you

[funky_beatz]

Dear cuong-nutz
Thank you for your input - I'm beginning to think that since we have so few group rides (2 a year and they are usually benefits) that they may not all be as laid back as those in different areas.
Either way , I will not ride beyond my ability and if it occurs again, I may just op out of the pack and travel at my leisure to the final destination - at least they always give a map
Thank you

[cuong-nutz]

Originally Posted by funky_beatz

Dear cuong-nutz
Thank you for your input - I'm beginning to think that since we have so few group rides (2 a year and they are usually benefits) that they may not all be as laid back as those in different areas.
Either way , I will not ride beyond my ability and if it occurs again, I may just op out of the pack and travel at my leisure to the final destination - at least they always give a map
Thank you

No problem!

This year I had cut back on riding due to injuries sustained from my accident as well issues. Accountabilty and Safety are our #1 issues/priorities.

Last major incident on a group ride was a rider went down and died out on the side of the road and no one knew. I think there was well over 30+ bikes which separated into 3 different groups based on experience. The ride was not organized due to size, extreme range of skills, and bike size. I have been on many group rides and have seen a lot of things happen. Worse thing you want to happen to you is that you go down and you die alone.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by rojoracing53

I think I may have used hand signs from in front of Cam a few times but its hard to recall.

Flipping the bird doesn't count.

[wvninjamom]

Most of the group rides around here do not have many sport bikes, mostly Harley's, Goldwings, etc. Got in a group ride with an idiot on a Goldwing who drove with his feet, rode standing up on the bike at 55 mph for a mile or so. Everyone in the group kept asking the people running the ride to move him to the back - unfortunately, he wouldn't go to the back. The group got really spread out because no one else wanted to be anywhere near him. Situation where there could have been a huge wreck and nothing was done about it.

Thanks for the post. Lots of great information!

[CycleCam303]

Originally Posted by Alex

Flipping the bird doesn't count.

Hahaha he knows us too well

[Darling Ninja]

Great post!

I prefer small groups when riding through canyons (3-4), and I don't like being the only woman in the group.

I ride with a married couple, and the wife has only been riding for a year. Her husband has many years of experience so he's always leading. We don't speed, just take it easy, enjoy the scenery. There's less pressure to "keep up" when there are other women in the group.

[NevadaWolf]

Originally Posted by funky_beatz

I did tell them that I was uncomfortable but he said I had to close the gap.

I had that happen to me. I like riding in the back on the group's rides I go on because I don't like pushing my bike and since I don't know the riders, would rather not try playing keep up. I set the pace comfortable to me within reason of the speed limit. But on one ride I was falling back (though I could still see the next bike ahead of me). Later I was told I needed to close the gap and keep up. I said no, I will not ride outside my comfort limit. Again, it was insisted I keep up. My answer was "Then I won't ride with your group anymore."

Your comfort level improves with your skill. Push beyond it before you are ready and you'll wreck, period.

(Which has suddenly happened to me the last two "group" rides I've been on. I kept up! )

[dave42]

You guys have some wonky sweepers in your groups. I'm pretty much always the sweeper and I've never rushed anybody. The poor slow guy already has his hands full on learning and trying to figure out what works and what don't, last thing he needs is for me to make him nervous because I wanna catch up to the pack.

[CycleCam303]

Originally Posted by Darling Ninja

Great post!

I prefer small groups when riding through canyons (3-4), and I don't like being the only woman in the group.

I ride with a married couple, and the wife has only been riding for a year. Her husband has many years of experience so he's always leading. We don't speed, just take it easy, enjoy the scenery. There's less pressure to "keep up" when there are other women in the group.

I went riding with a young lady who has less than a 1000 miles under her belt and noticed the same attitude. I thought it was great. I just lead and exaggerated braking zones, flashing the brake light using the rear brake very gently, and all was well.

Ladies seem to be cool as a cucumber and peer pressure proof. I worry about riding with younger males such as myself because I expect to see them pass me mid corner ass over tea kettle when they throw it away trying to keep up.

I guess the reverse of Steve Harvey's book rings true to motorcycle group rides. "Think like a lady, ride like a man?" Lol.