How far can you look through the turns?

[Alienjoe]

Forgive the n00b question but if you are riding hard enough on the street to worry about apexing a turn to keep your head out of a car's path, shouldn't you slow down more before that turn?? I'm all for brisk street riding and all, I just have different goals when I ride.

I also find that when I ride a turn a little too fast I allow the bike to turn, pick my butt off the seat and attempt to stay as upright as possible. To me it feels more natural and won't disorient me. How wrong am I???

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Alienjoe

Forgive the n00b question but if you are riding hard enough on the street to worry about apexing a turn to keep your head out of a car's path, shouldn't you slow down more before that turn?? I'm all for brisk street riding and all, I just have different goals when I ride.

Slowing down to safer speeds is always a good plan. I put more more miles on the track rather than the street because of exactly what you said, different goals.

Originally Posted by Alienjoe

I also find that when I ride a turn a little too fast I allow the bike to turn, pick my butt off the seat and attempt to stay as upright as possible. To me it feels more natural and won't disorient me. How wrong am I???

Sorry, not quite sure what you mean here. Sounds like a dirt type of riding skill or a method of putting weight on pegs. Can you explain again to help me understand?

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by subxero

I definitely don't turn in to early, but am thinking perhaps a delayed apex could help me out, guess i kind of need to re-train my brain to not use a point on the double yellow as the apex, it is tough because it is so easy to visualize the apex on the double yellow. I am still a rookie when it comes to the street so i've got lots of time to perfect the trade. Slow and steady i suppose

Thanks for the analysis and tips

After thinking about your question more, I wanted to connect an additional thought together for you.

Misti added "how long do you look at the point". I found, if I look and linger at the apex point to long, the bike seems to get sucked right to it, taking me off my "intended" line. Do you feel you linger a bit to long from time to time?

[subxero]

Originally Posted by Alienjoe

Forgive the n00b question but if you are riding hard enough on the street to worry about apexing a turn to keep your head out of a car's path, shouldn't you slow down more before that turn?? I'm all for brisk street riding and all, I just have different goals when I ride.

I also find that when I ride a turn a little too fast I allow the bike to turn, pick my butt off the seat and attempt to stay as upright as possible. To me it feels more natural and won't disorient me. How wrong am I???

I'ts not so much about the speed here for me, Im not burning through these turns and taking them too fast, Just taking them to much like you should on the track. I like the way i take the turns the problem is more what csmith said earlier, its about giving you that little extra buffer incase the vehicle on the other side of the road is going wide through the turn which some drivers tend to drift wide.

[subxero]

Originally Posted by csmith12

After thinking about your question more, I wanted to connect an additional thought together for you.

Misti added "how long do you look at the point". I found, if I look and linger at the apex point to long, the bike seems to get sucked right to it, taking me off my "intended" line. Do you feel you linger a bit to long from time to time?

I don't think i linger, I see my apex then keep it in my peripheral as i look ahead for the exit. Kinda what i said above this post, i am thinking my line is good....if i was on a track and i tend to ride these "track lines" more than i should on the street just because that is what comes natural to me. I need to just create an apex somewhere in the middle of the lane instead of using a point on the double yellow but it is often hard for me to visualize that point with often no reference on the road then i pick out the apex on the double yellow and get sucked in. Just need to practice i suppose.

Thanks again, sometimes it helps to have someone bump idea's off of and back at you.

[csmith12]

Ah.... a vagueness thing, I feel you.

Honestly, I don't have a pinpoint reference point for every corner on my normal Sunday ride of 100+ miles of corners. Quite a few are blind and over hilly geography. I know the route well and after much repetition, I don't need one or it has become subconscious. Maybe in time you will not either as you build upon your own street riding style.

You welcome and I hope I was able to help out. I am always down to bounce ideas around.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by Alienjoe

Forgive the n00b question but if you are riding hard enough on the street to worry about apexing a turn to keep your head out of a car's path, shouldn't you slow down more before that turn??

You don't have to ride fast to work on making smooth lines that take you to apex in the right spot. Afterall, being smooth and making turns with proper looking/rolling on doesn't automatically mean you have to being doing stupid-fast speeds.

[Alienjoe]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Slowing down to safer speeds is always a good plan. I put more more miles on the track rather than the street because of exactly what you said, different goals.



Sorry, not quite sure what you mean here. Sounds like a dirt type of riding skill or a method of putting weight on pegs. Can you explain again to help me understand?

You hit it right on the head!! I have 20 years of dirt experience under my belt. So yes as I enter a turn slightly quicker then I am supposed to, I turn in with more weight on the pegs and instead of leaning into the turn, I lean away. In my head, the more weight I keep in a straight line to the street, the safer I am. I am not talking about hitting a 35 mph speed limit at 60+ but I am talking about a natural "skill" to me when I am slightly uncomfortable with my entry speed.

Am I wrong to do this on the street??

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Alienjoe

You hit it right on the head!! I have 20 years of dirt experience under my belt. So yes as I enter a turn slightly quicker then I am supposed to, I turn in with more weight on the pegs and instead of leaning into the turn, I lean away. In my head, the more weight I keep in a straight line to the street, the safer I am. I am not talking about hitting a 35 mph speed limit at 60+ but I am talking about a natural "skill" to me when I am slightly uncomfortable with my entry speed.

Am I wrong to do this on the street??

I don't know if I would call that 100% right or 100% wrong for the majority of street riding. I would say, if your safe, your confident, it works for you and your reaching your goals, then rock on.

Each rider I talk to does little things that give them the confidence they need to ride at whatever speed. Many of the racers I have talked to will explain similar situations where they may weight the pegs as they corner on the street or track. A few of my good friends also ride this way on the street for our group rides and that arrive home safe and happy.

I can share with you what works for me though. I do something similar to what your talking about but only to "initiate" my turn in. For example, when I want to turn left, I will push on the left bar and use my right foot/leg as an anchor as well as push for additional leverage if needed. Once my line is set though... no pressure is on the bars, the additional weight that was on my right foot is relieved and my weight is then held by my legs and tank. In general, I normally only put enough weight on the pegs to keep me locked onto the bike and turn in. It helps me stay relaxed more and if I am relaxed, I am smoother.

3 things to think about though.
1. Are you dependent on steering the bike with body/peg weight? There is no substitute for counter steering when accuracy or safety is the biggest factor.
2. During those uncomfortable moments, do you also hold tight on the bars? I have to be mindful of that when parking the dirt bike and getting on the ninja.
3. Do the balls of your feet hurt after a long day of hard riding? Mine sure do, so it gives me incentive to hang off the bike using my legs instead of pivot on the inside peg as I corner.

Just be mindful of changing riding habits and goals and how you may need to compensate and you should be good to go.

I'm jealous, I wish I had 20yrs of dirt experience.

[Alienjoe]

I have had a pretty uneventful first season. My riding style is that of an old man: I love the feeling of being on 2 wheels and my "hard riding" has been about 0 % of the time. I ride alone on familiar routes which minimize my chances of meeting perpendicular to another vehicle. I would love nothing more then to ride above my normal pace but know not to do so on a non prepped surface.

I started dirt biking at age 7 on a Yamaha PW 80

[csmith12]

I know what you mean and those PW 80's rock. I got one for my son early summer this year. I also use it as my pit bike while at the track. I think I love the little thing more than he does. hahahahahaha

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by csmith12

I think I love the little thing more than he does.

Only when it's not leaking all over the trailer, Hahahaa

[Misti]

Originally Posted by ally99

Yes. This was one of the main causes of my crash at Little Tally. I skipped my apex reference point which made me turn in too early. I lost myself on the track and before I knew it, I had run too wide and was leaned on rumbles...the violent, gator kind. Just ask my poor brand new scorpion-exo 500 how violent those strips are!
Since then, I've learned I look at my reference point until I know my bike is going straight for it. At the point when I know my bike is heading straight for that spot, I shift my gaze to the next point I want my bike to hit, keeping the current turn-in point in my peripheral. Hope that makes sense. I haven't had my coffee yet this morning. lol!

Excellent, look at your RP until you know your bike is going straight for it. When you know you will get to that spot, shift your gaze and so on. The more you practice this, the more fluid it gets- then you get faster and you have to change your RP's again hehehe it's always changing!

Originally Posted by alex.s

so here is a question that has been puzzling me... where are you looking during blind corners where you cant see the apex or exit? i find my self looking at where i think the apex is, even though i cant see it... seems like a waste of my vision. what do you think?

Ok, well on blind turns or turns you can't see the apex you still want to have RP's to line you up with where you want to be. So, if you can't see the apex or exit, might you be able to see something in the distance that would line you up with the apex? A tree, a pole, a sign, a skid mark on the track? If you line yourself up with this then you KNOW you will be on the right line and as soon as you can see the apex or the exit you can look to your next point.

If it is a double apex or a long sweeping turn then you might need to have a few RP's that lead to the apex. Basically you always want to have enough RP's to ensure that you have a good solid and predictable line that can be repeated over and over again with precision. Does that help?

Originally Posted by csmith12

Thanks again Misty for your insight and confirmation that I am at least on the right track with my thoughts. Based on all the comments here and my findings on a ride with these in mind, I can assert the following;

You can unnecessarily look to far ahead
Take a visual snapshot of the road early & quickly enough to leave you time to adjust entry speed and get back to the upcoming task which is cornering
Sometimes you can pick a bad marker and your new marker may not feel as good at first but it gets better after repetition
You can linger on a marker for to long
When your unsure it's best to just slow down to increase your margin of error

What did I really learn?
How to pick better reference points and how to better control visual focus. Basically there isn't a need to put a lot of visual or mental focus on what is beyond the corner aside of your stopping distance. It also helped with entry speed. What is farther in the distance than that, a quick visual snapshot will do. Removing all that extra visual input at corner entry allows me to get back to cornering sooner, also getting rid of the "rushed" entry feeling.

Sounds awesome! Well done Finding and using good RP's is a really important skill and one that is constantly changing and evolving. You may have an awesome set of RP's for a given speed but then you start going faster so they need to be adjusted, or the weather changes and they need to be adjusted, or someone is in your way so they need to be adjusted. RP's are a starting point and they evolve as your riding changes and improves.

[Motofool]

This thread has been excellent,.........but it has been missing a good how-to video

Better seen after 1:00

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...8hIT_G10#t=59s

Link to original page on YouTube.

[csmith12]

omfg hahahahahahahhaha

[akima]

@Motofool scary

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by Motofool

This thread has been excellent,.........but it has been missing a good how-to video

haha look how they got it back up after he was done crashing:

Link to original page on YouTube.

They even had a truck there. Why not just tie the rope to the trailer hitch and let the truck pull it slowly?? hahaha

[csmith12]

I think this thread needs bumped.

[Motofool]

Much needed, ...............it seems.

[RedPepper64]

Very helpful information! Thanks for this thread. I've been trying to pick up my speed at the local track and found that the long sweeper tends to be my nemesis with picking out RPs.

[subxero]

I still feel this is one of my biggest weaknesses. I often don't look far enough ahead (not just the turns). I want to really work on this, it is a huge asset to not just street riding but dirt riding, seeing obstacles sooner means you can avoid them or at least prepare better for them.

I need to train my eyes and brain to not get caught up with what is happening so close as at that distance it probably doesn't matter if I see it or not because it is often too close to have much of a reaction to.

Any training tips?? It is touch cuz I cant do much riding right now but I started practicing looking further ahead while driving. I figure that is at least a start

Thanks in advance

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by RedPepper64

Very helpful information! Thanks for this thread. I've been trying to pick up my speed at the local track and found that the long sweeper tends to be my nemesis with picking out RPs.

How many references points should a corner have? Would it help if you were to add another?

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by subxero

Any training tips?? It is touch cuz I can't do much riding right now but I started practicing looking further ahead while driving. I figure that is at least a start

Just so you know... if you were to get some really good training, they would tell you that railing your vision down in front of you is a form of an SR. ie Your vision and attention are focused on a fixed area.

The problem is rooted in your FOV while riding/driving. You're pretty much blind lol . I mean that in a generic sense. Don't think of that 100% literal, but to show you how much you're missing, try this drill.

Start with your computer monitor.
Look at the center of the monitor. If it helps, put your mouse in the center to give you something to focus on.
Now... without moving your eyes, change your attention to one of the corners of the screen and hold it.
Once you can do that, then repeat the drill but change your attention back and forth from the center to a corner. Again, no eye movement.
Once you can do that, then repeat the drill but change it by moving your attention to the 4 corners of the monitor. Again, no eye movement.
Work up to bigger areas that stretch your peripheral vision to the max. And the faster you can do this, the better.

Now go for a walk and check out the world you have been missing! That bug flying around, that squirrel in the yard, the mail man coming down the road. It was all there before, your field of attention was just too narrow to see it. Sadly, many people never reach this level.

Now when you get in your car, going slow and straight. Try the drill again, look at the road with the focus of your eyes, but let your peripheral vision catch the attention of objects; that car, that mailbox, that sign.

If you can get good at this, you will have a widescreen FOV. Thus allowing you to look farther ahead while still maintaining attention of what is going on directly/closer in front of you. It gets easier with practice and can become “somewhat” automatic with consistent practice. Figuring out how to do this has affected other areas of my life as well. For example; I am soooooooo much better at judging multiple sparing opponents in karate class.

And for completeness, there is a downside to having a wide field of attention. Information overload may happen. Just because you can see it, doesn't mean you have to act upon it. There is a reason they put blinders on race horses.

So lemme ask you some questions.
Can you feel comfortable looking farther ahead if you're going slower or is speed even a factor?
Is it where your riding? Is it worse in the woods?

[subxero]

I think it's complicated.

For starters my eyes are in pretty rough shape, well at least one of them which again makes things complicated. I see pretty well out of my right eye, but my left eye is just kind of along for the ride. I can get some peripheral vision out of it but other than that I'm pretty much running mono

^ all of this affects depth perception, but I hardly find it an issue for day to day stuff even driving or riding... unless at night, I don't ride much if at all at night though. Hitting a fast pitch baseball on the other hand

Again because of my terrible vision out of my left eye, I have already become fairly efficient with my peripheral vision and use it quite often. To the point I tried to enter a reflex/ eye tracking study once and they had to throw out my results because I didn't move my eyes enough

I think I tend to set my focus too close and rely on my peripheral to read further ahead. Perhaps it should be more the other way. Set my focus a little further but use my peripheral to keep track of what is up close??

I am getting a little better with looking more ahead on the street, but I definitely feel like I am really bad at looking ahead while woods riding the dirtbike. I tend to get sucked in to focusing on close obstacles for far to long. I think it is ok to eye them up but not dwell on them. I need to glance it, say, ok it's there, yadda yadda, back to looking forward.

Probably the same for on the street but to a lesser degree.

is speed a factor?.... hmmm i don't think so, but i think the problem becomes more noticeable when i go faster... does that make sense? My bad habit isn't any better or worse with speed but the result of the bad habit is more noticeable at speed for obvious reasons. <-- i think that makes sense

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by subxero

I think I tend to set my focus too close and rely on my peripheral to read further ahead. Perhaps it should be more the other way. Set my focus a little further but use my peripheral to keep track of what is up close??

Sounds like you have a plan right there. ^^^

And I feel you while in the woods. All the branches, spider webs and such wreak havoc on your visual skills. And it makes perfect sense that the issue is more pronounced at faster speeds. For example; an airplane going 400+mph up in the sky looks like it's moving pretty slow, but a fighter jet skimming the deck at 400+mph will definately look fast.

Simply put, looking farther ahead will grant you space and time and your above average use of FOV will make it even better, if you can complement it with the right amount of attention.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Sounds like you have a plan right there. ^^^

And I feel you while in the woods. All the branches, spider webs and such wreak havoc on your visual skills. And it makes perfect sense that the issue is more pronounced at faster speeds. For example; an airplane going 400+mph up in the sky looks like it's moving pretty slow, but a fighter jet skimming the deck at 400+mph will definately look fast.

Simply put, looking farther ahead will grant you space and time and your above average use of FOV will make it even better, if you can complement it with the right amount of attention.

Have you also considered the idea of improving your visual skills out WIDER? We always talk about looking farther ahead and that is very very important, but sometimes we get sucked into looking ahead but with narrowed vision, almost like we are looking down a long tunnel. So even though you are looking far ahead you lack overall awareness of what is going on around you, your sense of speed is skewed and it becomes easier to target fixate or get stuck looking at something you don't necessarily want to look at.

What if you also tried to pull your vision out wider, like opening up the curtains? On the street this might mean seeing from one edge of the road to the other edge, on the track it might mean seeing past the edges of the track on each side and in the forest it might mean looking past the narrow path you are riding to see more of the trail, more of what is around you.

[ally99]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Just so you know... if you were to get some really good training, they would tell you that railing your vision down in front of you is a form of an SR. ie Your vision and attention are focused on a fixed area.

The problem is rooted in your FOV while riding/driving. You're pretty much blind lol . I mean that in a generic sense. Don't think of that 100% literal, but to show you how much you're missing, try this drill.

Start with your computer monitor.
Look at the center of the monitor. If it helps, put your mouse in the center to give you something to focus on.
Now... without moving your eyes, change your attention to one of the corners of the screen and hold it.
Once you can do that, then repeat the drill but change your attention back and forth from the center to a corner. Again, no eye movement.
Once you can do that, then repeat the drill but change it by moving your attention to the 4 corners of the monitor. Again, no eye movement.
Work up to bigger areas that stretch your peripheral vision to the max. And the faster you can do this, the better.

Now go for a walk and check out the world you have been missing! That bug flying around, that squirrel in the yard, the mail man coming down the road. It was all there before, your field of attention was just too narrow to see it. Sadly, many people never reach this level.

Now when you get in your car, going slow and straight. Try the drill again, look at the road with the focus of your eyes, but let your peripheral vision catch the attention of objects; that car, that mailbox, that sign.

If you can get good at this, you will have a widescreen FOV. Thus allowing you to look farther ahead while still maintaining attention of what is going on directly/closer in front of you. It gets easier with practice and can become “somewhat” automatic with consistent practice. Figuring out how to do this has affected other areas of my life as well. For example; I am soooooooo much better at judging multiple sparing opponents in karate class.

And for completeness, there is a downside to having a wide field of attention. Information overload may happen. Just because you can see it, doesn't mean you have to act upon it. There is a reason they put blinders on race horses.

So lemme ask you some questions.
Can you feel comfortable looking farther ahead if you're going slower or is speed even a factor?
Is it where your riding? Is it worse in the woods?

Quali-TY with a capital "T" there Chris! Great exercise that has its own chapter in Total Control by Lee Parks! Thanks for posting.

[csmith12]

Believe it or not, I am still diggin' into this topic. I got a test comin' up soon.

I have learned the most simple of facts. We ALL have a blind spot!!!!

At first I didn't really believe it, but the reason was so simple. As light enters our eyes, it reflects off the back of the eye and boom sight!!!!. Thing is... the optic nerve connects back there too. No light sensitive nerves in that area is there (ie our blind spot)? Our other eye and brain compensate for this blind spot in it's twin by filling in the blanks. But what happens when the brain runs out of enough data to fill in the blanks? We move (scan) our eyes to collect more info on what we need.

Aint biology and science cool?

[adouglas]

Geez, they don't show kids this stuff anymore? I knew about this when I was, like, six.

https://visionaryeyecare.wordpress.c...t-in-each-eye/

Fun fact: I have a slightly lazy eye... not anything that shows, but it affected the development of my vision growing up. The long-term effect is that the blind spot in my left eye is far more pronounced than in my right.

It's freaky. When I close my right eye, it's like I can see things but can't make them out. Like I know there will be a word in front of me but I can't read it. Most of the field of vision does that weird appearing/disappearing trick you get when you take the blind spot test.

But when both eyes are open, no problems. Bizarre.

[Sirref]

Off of the OPs initial question

I used to think that looking as far ahead as possible was the correct way to go. Turn one at jennings taught me differently, it's a super long and open corner that's shaped much like a giant u-turn which means you can see the space between turn one and two if you look as far ahead as you possibly can. However, looking that far ahead destroys your confidence in the corner and slows you down significantly on entry (a consistent problem I had with that corner) Instead I found it to be far more effective to look at the apex on turn in and then look at the exit until around the time I get to the apex and only then to look as far ahead as possible and begin planning on the wild, nerve wracking, wide open turn 2.

This is obviously different corner to corner but the realization that "looking as far ahead as possible" is not always the way to go was huge and went a long way towards helping me bring my speed up a bit in that corner.

[ally99]

Yes! I learned it my first track weekend on corner three at Little Tally. There IS a such thing as too far ahead, but honestly, on street corners, there isn't. On the street, looking as far as you can see through the corner is your best strategy for having time to react to hazards as well as making it through the corner. VERY few street corners are like corner one at Jennings.
Damn, I miss corner one at Jennings. Kinda want to kick its ass.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by adouglas

Geez, they don't show kids this stuff anymore? I knew about this when I was, like, six.

It took me a while to come up with a response to this. lol.... I must be getting slow less fast.

Agreed, should be common knowledge and most likely is. I was just trying to find justification to the comment alex.s made in post #4, as it's not the first time I had heard it and.... other top riders and coaches say the same thing. There has to be a VALID reason that can be 100% scientifically proven. The human machine is only capable of so much, to understand the limits it can fill in the blanks and can result in an added safety layer.

I looked, did my homework and found the reason behind shifty eyes... I call it one of many "human checks and balances" (there are others). While we can be trained to visually connect the dots via reference points, being a human is filled with imperfections. Some by chance, some out of error, some out of ignorance, others being slightly more subconscious or built in by the human machine.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by Sirref

Off of the OPs initial question

I used to think that looking as far ahead as possible was the correct way to go. Turn one at jennings taught me differently, it's a super long and open corner that's shaped much like a giant u-turn which means you can see the space between turn one and two if you look as far ahead as you possibly can. However, looking that far ahead destroys your confidence in the corner and slows you down significantly on entry (a consistent problem I had with that corner) Instead I found it to be far more effective to look at the apex on turn in and then look at the exit until around the time I get to the apex and only then to look as far ahead as possible and begin planning on the wild, nerve wracking, wide open turn 2.

This is obviously different corner to corner but the realization that "looking as far ahead as possible" is not always the way to go was huge and went a long way towards helping me bring my speed up a bit in that corner.

Absolutely. I hear that one piece of advice, "look as far ahead as you can." and I feel the same way about it as you do. If you try to look as far ahead as possible then you can lose sight of where you are in the moment. Often times this results in a rider having multiple mid corner corrections with their steering. They may get too close to the apex, adjust, adjust again etc etc.

What I prefer to tell people is to have a series of reference points in any corner (this applies to riding on the street as well). The difference is that on the track the reference points are reinforced by riding the same line over and over again and by working on remembering each corner.

On the street you use reference points as you ride along because you may never have seen that corner before. Things like; signage, the edge of the road, painted lines, imperfections in the road, the vanishing point etc...all give you clues on how to chose a line through the corner.

So that being said, how many reference points do you want to have? In general we say we need at least three RP's, for corner entry, apex and exit...but what about corners like turn one at Jennings or long sweeping turns? How many RP's do you strive for in corners like that?

If you can's see the exit for example, what should you look at instead?

[Sirref]

You want as many reference points as you need to prevent getting lost in the corner, no more no less.
T1 Jennings I have 4:
Turn in
apex 1
apex 2
exit

they conveniently have meatballs set up for each, so turn in, start rolling on the throttle at first apex then follow the line through the second apex where you hit max throttle and start bringing the bike up for exit. If you have to roll off the throttle on exit then you've made a mistake. It's a weird turn though since it's so long and gradual, it's easy to get lost if you don't focus on each reference point for the right amount of time which is tricky.

[nickjpass]

Originally Posted by Alienjoe

Forgive the n00b question but if you are riding hard enough on the street to worry about apexing a turn to keep your head out of a car's path, shouldn't you slow down more before that turn?? I'm all for brisk street riding and all, I just have different goals when I ride.

I also find that when I ride a turn a little too fast I allow the bike to turn, pick my butt off the seat and attempt to stay as upright as possible. To me it feels more natural and won't disorient me. How wrong am I???

I look as far as my my head turns and eyes allow.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by Sirref

You want as many reference points as you need to prevent getting lost in the corner, no more no less.
T1 Jennings I have 4:
Turn in
apex 1
apex 2
exit

they conveniently have meatballs set up for each, so turn in, start rolling on the throttle at first apex then follow the line through the second apex where you hit max throttle and start bringing the bike up for exit. If you have to roll off the throttle on exit then you've made a mistake. It's a weird turn though since it's so long and gradual, it's easy to get lost if you don't focus on each reference point for the right amount of time which is tricky.

Excellent. So, how long do you look at each reference point for?

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by Misti

Excellent. So, how long do you look at each reference point for?

As long as I need to, a little bit less each time I went through.

I broke that corner down to 3 visual timings (I can see apex2 and exit at the same time) I look at the turn in point until the braking marker then switch to the first apex and look at that until I'm about halfway there after turn in before switching to apex2 and then the exit naturally comes into view as I get closer to the second apex.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by Sirref

As long as I need to, a little bit less each time I went through.

I broke that corner down to 3 visual timings (I can see apex2 and exit at the same time) I look at the turn in point until the braking marker then switch to the first apex and look at that until I'm about halfway there after turn in before switching to apex2 and then the exit naturally comes into view as I get closer to the second apex.

Sounds like you have some pretty good timing in terms of how long you look at each RP for. We like to say at CSS that you should look at the RP until you KNOW that you will end up there. Once you are certain you will hit your apex RP for example, then you look up to your next RP.

The challenge is to not target fixate on any of your RP's for too long and to have a nice smooth flow of information coming in. At first it can feel choppy to be looking from one RP to the next but as you get better at lifting your eyes up to the next one, it begins to smooth out and flow naturally.

What about lifting your eyes up to the "vanishing point." Have you guys heard of that term? What does it mean to look to the vanishing point?

M

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Sirref

As long as I need to, a little bit less each time I went through.

I broke that corner down to 3 visual timings (I can see apex2 and exit at the same time) I look at the turn in point until the braking marker then switch to the first apex and look at that until I'm about halfway there after turn in before switching to apex2 and then the exit naturally comes into view as I get closer to the second apex.

Interesting.... mine is a bit different.

I check my turn in
I check up on the 1st meatball
Turn
Check up on a mark on the track that is about midcorner and in line with the far right edge of the Jennings sign on the embankment
Continue line
I check up on the 2nd meatball
Hook turn a bit
Once I know I am going to hit the 2nd meatball apex I start checking for turn 2's turn in

My line through turn 1 has me sorta squaring off the turn more than others. It would be interesting to see my bp pics for turn 1. 1st meatball vs. 2nd meatball.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Misti

What about lifting your eyes up to the "vanishing point." Have you guys heard of that term? What does it mean to look to the vanishing point?

Hint for ya'lls...

Blind corners and elevation change is where this would shine. Why?