2002 250 I got for free has engine issues advice needed

[daverdfw]

So my 18yo son wants to get on the track with me. He found a 2002 Ninja 250 put out by a shop because it was abandoned. We picked it up brought it home.

NO visible signs of engine damage, someone put clean oil in it. Chain is heavily rusted, swingarm and clipons also show signs of rust. Tires are very cracked. My guess is it has been sitting outside for a long time. 22K miles on the odo.

I took the cap off the stator cover and tried to rotate engine by hand. Wont budge. Pulled spark plugs and sprayed WD40 and some penetrating oil last night. Still wont budge.

I have torn apart my 2009 motor before to switch a crankcase with help from the nice folks here. I have a feeling I will have to drop the motor and crack it open to see whats going on. Anything else I should look at / try before I drop the motor? Thanks!

[juliusmichaelhonrada]

are you sure it was in neutral gear

[daverdfw]

Originally Posted by juliusmichaelhonrada

are you sure it was in neutral gear

yup and also pulled in the clutch just in case. I can change gears. So I don't think its a gearbox issue. But who knows.

[juliusmichaelhonrada]

im sure the cylinder is full of rust and the rings is stucked dead in there , the rust had pitted to the point that its budging up taking up all the clearance

[daverdfw]

Originally Posted by juliusmichaelhonrada

im sure the cylinder is full of rust and the rings is stucked dead in there , the rust had pitted to the point that its budging up taking up all the clearance

What else are my options besides dropping the motor ? I don't wanna keep cranking on the bolt trying to get it to turn over.

[juliusmichaelhonrada]

Originally Posted by daverdfw

What else are my options besides dropping the motor ? I don't wanna keep cranking on the bolt trying to get it to turn over.

soaking the cylinders with automatic transmission fluid and kerosene , you can search up on google about stucked cast iron diesel engines pouring around 1-2 teaspoons a day and trying to turn the alternator nut with a breaker bar slowly for 2 weeks and it went free , yeah just dont use the breaker bar on the ninja.

you need an oil change after all of this because the solvents will mix with the oil below the pan

[daverdfw]

Originally Posted by juliusmichaelhonrada

soaking the cylinders with automatic transmission fluid and kerosene , you can search up on google about stucked cast iron diesel engines pouring around 1-2 teaspoons a day and trying to turn the flywheel nut with a breaker bar slowly for 2 weeks and it went free , yeah just dont use the breaker bar on the ninja.

you need an oil change after all of this because the solvents will mix with the oil below the pan

yeah I will do some more research. Should be a fun learning experience!

[JohnnyBravo]

sweet

[Ram Jet]

Originally Posted by juliusmichaelhonrada

soaking the cylinders with automatic transmission fluid and kerosene , you can search up on google about stucked cast iron diesel engines pouring around 1-2 teaspoons a day and trying to turn the alternator nut with a breaker bar slowly for 2 weeks and it went free , yeah just dont use the breaker bar on the ninja.

you need an oil change after all of this because the solvents will mix with the oil below the pan

I agree with the A.T.F. and kerosene (I use gasoline). I had a rear axle stuck, rusted fast in the rear wheel of a Honda due to a leaky wheel bearing seal. I tried everything and assuming I was going to destroy the rear axle beating it out with a hammer I bought a spare on eBay. Two days with my A.T.F./gasoline concoction and the axle tapped right out and the axle was OK. I had a friend who had a Yamaha RD350 with about 3,000 miles on it lock-up just like yours. I don't know what happened to the bike but this was before I knew about the A,T.F. concoction.

[daverdfw]

Originally Posted by Ram Jet

I agree with the A.T.F. and kerosene (I use gasoline). I had a rear axle stuck, rusted fast in the rear wheel of a Honda due to a leaky wheel bearing seal. I tried everything and assuming I was going to destroy the rear axle beating it out with a hammer I bought a spare on eBay. Two days with my A.T.F./gasoline concoction and the axle tapped right out and the axle was OK. I had a friend who had a Yamaha RD350 with about 3,000 miles on it lock-up just like yours. I don't know what happened to the bike but this was before I knew about the A,T.F. concoction.

I might try the ATF/Gas/kerosene combo, question is, once it works how do I clean it out of the cylinder heads? is it safe to try starting it?

[Ram Jet]

Originally Posted by daverdfw

I might try the ATF/Gas/kerosene combo, question is, once it works how do I clean it out of the cylinder heads? is it safe to try starting it?

The gasoline and kerosene will evaporate and the A.T.F. won't hurt anything. If you are lucky and it works you will have to remove the head and cylinders. New rings are a must and maybe pistons. If the cylinders are badly pitted they will require boring for new oversize pistons. You might take a chance that the crankshaft main bearings and big end connecting rod bearings are OK. The wrist pins need to be checked for pitting and damage. When you are satisfied with your repairs the engine can be reassembled, fresh oil and filter installed and fire it up. Run it at idle for about 10 minutes and drain the oil and replace the filter again and clean the oil pan screen. Install new oil and filter, go to church and pray. Go home and run it.

[daverdfw]

Originally Posted by Ram Jet

The gasoline and kerosene will evaporate and the A.T.F. won't hurt anything. If you are lucky and it works you will have to remove the head and cylinders. New rings are a must and maybe pistons. If the cylinders are badly pitted they will require boring for new oversize pistons. You might take a chance that the crankshaft main bearings and big end connecting rod bearings are OK. The wrist pins need to be checked for pitting and damage. When you are satisfied with your repairs the engine can be reassembled, fresh oil and filter installed and fire it up. Run it at idle for about 10 minutes and drain the oil and replace the filter again and clean the oil pan screen. Install new oil and filter, go to church and pray. Go home and run it.

makes sense. Is there anything I am missing that would prevent me from turning the motor over by hand other than rusted pistons?

[Ram Jet]

Originally Posted by daverdfw

makes sense. Is there anything I am missing that would prevent me from turning the motor over by hand other than rusted pistons?

I HOPE NOT but there my be a broken rocker arm floating around in the cam chain tower. Might be a good idea to pull the right crankcase/clutch cover for a look around.

[daverdfw]

Originally Posted by Ram Jet

I HOPE NOT but there my be a broken rocker arm floating around in the cam chain tower. Might be a good idea to pull the right crankcase/clutch cover for a look around.

great idea. I will just pull both covers to be safe and make sure I don't see anything odd.

[daverdfw]

I just mixed up some ATF/gasonline and used a syringe to inject about 9oz per cylinder. I will let it set and see what happens. One difference I noticed on the pregen motor is the drain hole on the left side of head. a little came out there, but not much

[Ram Jet]

Originally Posted by daverdfw

I just mixed up some ATF/gasonline and used a syringe to inject about 9oz per cylinder. I will let it set and see what happens. One difference I noticed on the pregen motor is the drain hole on the left side of head. a little came out there, but not much

I sat here reading this and said to myself, "I'll bet that's a drain for the spark plug valley." My bike's all torn apart right now so I took a piece of 14ga red wire out with my flashlight. I shoved the wire into the hole on the side of the cylinder head and sure nuf' the wire could be seen over the top of the empty spark plug hole. In fact I think the hole runs the entire width of the cylinder head. God, the more I fool around with this bike the more admiration I have for Kawasaki engineers. So, if you have the gas tank off your bike and it rains the water won't puddle around the base of the spark plug. So too at the car wash. Cool! You don't have a hole in the side of your cylinder wall. :-o

[daverdfw]

Still not budging, tried acetone/ATF and gasoline/ATF. Will pop the covers off and see whats going on.

[daverdfw]

and the bolt broke trying to turn it over. FML

[Ram Jet]

Originally Posted by daverdfw

Still not budging, tried acetone/ATF and gasoline/ATF. Will pop the covers off and see whats going on.

See this article: http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/k1200lt/...fasteners.html

In my worthless opinion A.T.F and acetone will make an emulsion if shaken really hard but the two chemicals will eventually separate again. A.T.F. an gasoline will go into solution and will stay that way, The way I see it the gasoline is merely a "carrier" for the A.T.F. and delivers it to all the molecular nooks and crannies - then evaporates. Like the carrier in spray paint.

I wouldn't look for "snap your fingers" results. Real results may not come until several days have past. The parts got into the mess they're in over a period of years. I would just give it some time. Maybe it'll be weeks - who knows. My experience with this concoction was over a period of days but I was only working on a stuck rear axle not engine cylinders.

I would consider, after a period of time and removing the cylinder head, getting a piece of soft pine 2x2 and a mallet and give the piston crowns some gentle raps to try and crack the layer of corrosion.

[juliusmichaelhonrada]

Originally Posted by daverdfw

and the bolt broke trying to turn it over. FML

what?? can you post some pics? i dont think its possible unless you are superman

[daverdfw]

Originally Posted by juliusmichaelhonrada

what?? can you post some pics? i dont think its possible unless you are superman

the alternator rotor bolt, its not very thick. I am sure I will be able to drill it out. At this point I will be dropping the motor. I will deal with that when I have to.

[Triple Jim]

With a broken bolt that has the remainder not particularly stuck, sometimes a left hand drill bit will get it out. Of course there's the Easy-Out method. Drilling it out as such can be dangerous unless you have a way to keep the bit lined up and exactly centered.

[daverdfw]

Originally Posted by Triple Jim

With a broken bolt that has the remainder not particularly stuck, sometimes a left hand drill bit will get it out. Of course there's the Easy-Out method. Drilling it out as such can be dangerous unless you have a way to keep the bit lined up and exactly centered.

hmm I wonder where I could get a left handed drill bit.

[Triple Jim]

Industrial suppliers like mcmaster.com have them. You may have a local supplier that stocks them. It's handy to have a set of a few sizes in the shop.

[juliusmichaelhonrada]

if you are planning on stripping down the engine , you can lift the whole crankshaft assembly + the flywheel and have it drilled in a machine shop with extreme precision

[Ram Jet]

Originally Posted by daverdfw

hmm I wonder where I could get a left handed drill bit.

Try this:


https://www.amazon.com/Extractor-Ais...crew+extractor

You will have to drill a small hole in the remaining bolt shank but you won't need to get anywhere near the existing female treads.

[Triple Jim]

That's a different brand of the of the "Easy Out" method I mentioned. It's a good way to get the broken part out.

[daverdfw]

UPDATE! Got the bolt out by hand. So no big deal there. Got the crankcase split, pistons and rings are fine. The issue is the right connecting rod, is totally seized on the crank.So what do I do? New crank and connecting rods? just replace the one thats seized?

took it apart and look at whats left of the bearing. So don't I have to order a special bearing based on like the colors on the crank or something? I should do rings as well since I am in there , right?

http://imgur.com/a/afJK8
http://imgur.com/a/Ke4VX

[juliusmichaelhonrada]

remove the conrod and hope that the crank journal is fine because it will be a painful experience when you try to fix a crank

[daverdfw]

Originally Posted by juliusmichaelhonrada

remove the conrod and hope that the crank journal is fine because it will be a painful experience when you try to fix a crank

by the journal you mean the surface where the conrod connects? The surface feels and looks smooth. Just the bearing which I just added to my previous post.

so looking at the manual, my Conn rod big end has a letter and a O around it, on the crank, I don't see any markings where it says there would be one. So if I am reading that correctly, then I need the white/blue bearing. Am I reading that correctly?

[juliusmichaelhonrada]

the mark on the crank should look like this



get a vernier caliper and do a rough measurement of the big end journal that have the broken bearings , should be a micron before 30mm if its far around 29mm im afraid its not useable anymore
the maximum service limit of the big end journal is around 29.97mm if i remember it correctly

[daverdfw]

here is what mine look like
I used my calipers and its 29.85mm


http://imgur.com/a/0QQzC
http://imgur.com/WhybRDl

[hessaciah]

Just doubled checked my service manual, and Julius is right that the service limit is 29.97. If you've worn down to 29.85, you won't be able to find undersize bearings (from what I've heard, haven't personally confirmed), and you probably need to source a new crank.

There's also processes for welding cranks and re-machining them, but I can't image it's cost effective to do that in this case.

[Triple Jim]

It's hard to imagine that the crank journal isn't at least in need of a regrind after running with a bearing that's damaged like that. It not only has to measure in spec, but needs to have a near perfect, almost shiny ground surface.

Whatever caused the rod bearing failure may have damaged more than just that one, so take a close look at all the journals and bearings.

[daverdfw]

So the Journal is still nice and shiny and smooth. I was measuring the journal on the wrong side, and each time I use my calipers the measurment is a little different, I get 29.92-29.96 now depending on how hard I push the caliper against the journal. Maybe its ok?

took the other connecting rod off, the journal reads 30.02 or so.

The other thing thats interesting is the conneting rod cap on the failed bearing, I put it back on and I cant even pull it off even with no nuts on it. Makes me think it got twisted or warped? Maybe I should find a crank/connecting rod set on ebay or something?

[Triple Jim]

A rod cap fit should be pretty snug, so that's most likely a good thing.

You really can't measure crankshaft clearance with a vernier, or dial, or digital caliper. You need a halfway decent micrometer that can measure sub-thousandths of an inch (better than 0.02mm). If you don't have one, and don't want to buy one, a local automotive machine shop should be happy to measure it for you.

That difference between the two is troubling.

[daverdfw]

Originally Posted by Triple Jim

A rod cap fit should be pretty snug, so that's most likely a good thing.

You really can't measure crankshaft clearance with a vernier, or dial, or digital caliper. You need a halfway decent micrometer that can measure sub-thousandths of an inch (better than 0.02mm). If you don't have one, and don't want to buy one, a local automotive machine shop should be happy to measure it for you.

That difference between the two is troubling.

yeah I have a digital caliper. I guess I can find an auto shop with an actual caliper. And then go from there to figure out next steps.

the "good" connecting rod cap comes off freely.

Just sent my son to a machine shop to get all of the journals measured.

[Triple Jim]

Well, obviously both assemblies (for L and R cylinders) should measure similarly and have caps with similar snugness. Deinitely get some accurate measurements of all the crank journals so you know what you're working with.

At some point an eBay engine is cheaper and easier than buying parts and paying a machine shop.

[daverdfw]

Originally Posted by Triple Jim

Well, obviously both assemblies (for L and R cylinders) should measure similarly and have caps with similar snugness. Deinitely get some accurate measurements of all the crank journals so you know what you're working with.

At some point an eBay engine is cheaper and easier than buying parts and paying a machine shop.

so we had it checked, all of the journals are within spec. The journal with the failed bearing has a gouge, the person at the machine shop said he would have to take enough off that it would be at the minimum. \

The gouge runs long ways, its smooth. I am sure it would work in the short term, and this will only be a track bike. Just not sure what else to do at this point.

So if I went with a crank off like eBay, what would the process be as far as what main and conrod bearings I would have to use?

[Triple Jim]

Can the machine shop grind the journal one size under, and you use matching undersize bearings, and it'll be like new?