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Old March 20th, 2017, 04:26 PM   #1
noah_karch
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Desperate Student! 2006 250 Lengthy Post; Throttle kills Engine, Full Choke on

Hi all,

Before I get into this, I understand that this is a thread title that always graces the forum, but I have done a lot of searching and cannot find a situation like my own as of yet.

TL;DR: Possible weak battery to start with, but changed spark plugs and oil, then ran the bike with no issues. Took out the carbs after a hell of a time trying to get them out, cleaned them according to a Youtube video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ksh-hcmz3U4&t=895s , replaced everything, had a weird time with the flimsy diaphragm rubber, but screwed the caps back down on top of them. Ran the bike again, hiccups/hesitation, eventual stall on a downhill even with WOT, got it started and back to the garage it went. Disassembled, tried to carb sync via two-bottle method on a slightly warm engine, bike would not start (out of gas symptoms), noticed water in tubes that lead to vacuum nipples on carbs, reattached everything and just tried to start bike numerous times, when it was started, it could only do so at full choke with steady RPMs at 4-5k, any change in choke or throttle killed the engine. Could get it to crawl by letting out clutch, but was unsteady and sounded like it wanted to stall, and any throttle still killed the engine. Ordering a new battery, I eventually killed my current one, need help on diagnosing and what to do going forward.

Background:

Before my spring break (early March, for a week) I was running my 250 intermittently, and was starting to think about the maintenance the bike would need, not having known when it had last been done (the oil looked very dark and it worried me). Started to hear sputtering from the engine, more so at higher RPMs, and noticeable lack of midrange power, and after forum searching, I bought some Chevron Total Fuel System Cleaner and added the necessary amount and ran it until reserve, and did notice an eventual disappearance of sputtering. Before break (and a full tank of gas) I poured in some more cleaner to the engine since I would be gone for the week, just wanted to cover my ass, and ran the bike (just idling while revving in neutral). Come back, have issues getting it started (around 30-45 degrees throughtout the week), assuming just a cold battery, resorted to setting choke fully on, open/close throttle while starting until I get it going, let it warm up, then take off. Eventually did not have to do this if the bike sat out in the sun or got to warm up long enough while it was running. Then I got around to purchasing all the components necessary for the maintenance I planned on performing (oil change, coolant flush, spark plugs, carb clean, carb sync, valve adjustments) after getting the green light to work on my bike at my friend's house. I have a 2006 Ninja with 5002 miles and finally approached the task having not known when it was last done and having some mechanical experience with cars.

To start I did not get to do everything. First, I got to changing the spark plugs and changing the oil, which I then ensured was okay by taking it for a short ride down the street, no issues there.

Next came the carb cleaning. I knew the Fuel System Cleaner was not a end-all solution and wanted the peace of mind of having cleaned my carbs. Looked it up on YouTube and had ninja250.org pulled up alongside, soaked the jets, sprayed everything down, air/fuel mixture to 2.5 turns out, removed the diaphragms and sprayed them and everything within, replaced them (unsure if i did it correctly, but I made sure the cap covered the rubber, some excess was hanging out in one area more than others after tightening), and went about hooking everything back up to the bike. Now, I got everything back in, all the boots in place, hoses in place, tank reattached, and I go to start the bike, fully anticipating that it will need some cranks before starting, also knowing I have had battery issues recently that required bumpstarting on occasion after leaving the keys in the ignition. Ended up getting the bike started with full choke by jumping it with a jumpstarter box that was not at max charge, 4kish RPM's in neutral. Next, took the bike out to the street again, only to find hesitation/hiccuping, which I did not take too much mind to having replaced the carbs and trying to get gas back flowing in the engine, but when I was coming down a hill I noticed a sharp drop off in power to where WOT would not bring me above 2k RPMS until it stalled out. Gave the bike a second and then started it back up successfully with the choke and hurriedly brought it back to the garage, assuming I needed to now sync the carbs, and went about doing so with the two-bottle method as suggested from ninja250.org. Now, I had the bottles set up, sealed and seated nicely to where I could read them, and tried starting the bike (it had cooled off slightly because I had to make the manometer), kicked up but died shortly after because of what I assume was a lack of gas, although I thought the carbs could hold enough gas to idle temporarily. Tried to start it up a few more times, battery was too weak to continue and died out. As I tried to plan my course of action, I noticed water droplets in the hoses connected to the nipples on the carbs that were meant to measure the vacuum from each cylinder (they were not immersed in the water within the bottles, only the hoses connecting the two bottles were), later finding out that water can mess with things in the carbs should it get in, but I carried on assuming it did not make it in.

I took a break, and reapproached, going over everything to see if everything was connected (it was), but I noticed the hose coming from the tank (one that is hidden by the seat) was kinked, but realized it only led to the bottom of the bike. A few failed attempts at bumpstarting later, I jumped it eventually using a car that had to be turned on just to get the bike going (I know it should be off as to not overload the battery, but I was not making progress, I could hear the clicking of my battery and was desperate). Bike then kicked on after many attempts at starting later and instantly spiked to 4k rpms, and I then went about trying to reduce choke from full, but any reduction will instantly kill RPMs, and I'd have to catch it with the choke. With more minor adjustments, I could get it below 4k only for a short time before RPMs began to hunt and bog the engine. After letting the bike sit for about an hour, I tried intermittently to start the engine with full choke to hopefully restore life into the battery, any attempts to open the throttle killed the RPMs instantly. I tried adjusting idle RPMs, no change, and it is worth mentioning that the temp. did reach its minimum running temp. and I could not let off any choke. Bike could crawl by letting out the clutch at this point slowly, but RPMs and noise told me the bike wanted to stall, and any throttle input from a crawl would kill the bike as well, even with the help of a hill.

Another hour later I gear up and try to see if the motorcycle gods worked a miracle on my motorcycle after starting it (reluctantly) with full choke yet again, 4k RPMs, sometimes 5k, and temporary crawling. Tried rolling throttle: dead. Bike would then refuse to turn on, I tried opening throttle just to get a start, nothing, eventually killed the battery to the point of no return, no click, just a brick.

I was doing the work at a friend's house, had to go back to campus Sunday night, now it is just sitting in his garage. I'm going to order a Scorpion replacement battery (probably needs a new battery anyways), and would like to know what I can attempt to do going into the next weekend.
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Old March 20th, 2017, 06:01 PM   #2
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sounds like the bike do combust fuel but it sounds like the piston couldn't extract much power from the combustion and letting of the clutch slowly at 4,000rpm should make the bike run and accelerate maybe to at least 20km/h i suggest you stop buying batteries and do a compression/leakdown test on this engine
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Old March 20th, 2017, 06:20 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juliusmichaelhonrada View Post
sounds like the bike do combust fuel but it sounds like the piston couldn't extract much power from the combustion and letting of the clutch slowly at 4,000rpm should make the bike run and accelerate maybe to at least 20km/h i suggest you stop buying batteries and do a compression/leakdown test on this engine
How would I go about doing this? My problem is that my bike was running well prior to taking the carbs off to clean, and also a detail that I neglected was that I have two springs that I am not sure where they came from. They are not the ones from the diaphragm or from inner components of the carbs, they are linked together to form a circle, it looks like it would be necessary for keeping on one of the boots? I am confused though because I tightened the screws that were on the brackets from the boot connecting the carbs to the engine, where would these come in and would they be potentially causing my problems? I could not imagine they alone could, but I never know.
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Old March 20th, 2017, 07:13 PM   #4
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Post a photo of the springs.

It sounds carb-related to me. Either a problem with the diaphragms or carb passages.

Or a vacuum leak if the boots are not secured snugly.
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Old March 20th, 2017, 09:49 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkv45 View Post
Post a photo of the springs.

It sounds carb-related to me. Either a problem with the diaphragms or carb passages.

Or a vacuum leak if the boots are not secured snugly.
http://imgur.com/fIvtDGR


Here is a picture of the springs like requested.

Last futzed with by noah_karch; March 20th, 2017 at 09:50 PM. Reason: Picture did not appear before, included link to the picture
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Old March 21st, 2017, 05:29 AM   #6
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SPRING,AIR FILTER DUCT
92144-1771

for the "air boots"
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Old March 21st, 2017, 06:50 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah_karch View Post
http://imgur.com/fIvtDGR


Here is a picture of the springs like requested.
As Gordon posted, those go on the rubber boots between the carb and the air box.

You want those on there, but a leak there is not going to cause the running problems you have.

Something isn't assembled or adjusted properly in the carbs is my guess.

If you have the ability to shoot and post a video it could help us pinpoint the problem.
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Old March 21st, 2017, 07:09 AM   #8
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... but I made sure the cap covered the rubber, some excess was hanging out in one area more than others after tightening)...
This has me thinking he pinched the diaphragm
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Old March 21st, 2017, 08:51 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by noah_karch View Post
How would I go about doing this? My problem is that my bike was running well prior to taking the carbs off to clean, and also a detail that I neglected was that I have two springs that I am not sure where they came from. They are not the ones from the diaphragm or from inner components of the carbs, they are linked together to form a circle, it looks like it would be necessary for keeping on one of the boots? I am confused though because I tightened the screws that were on the brackets from the boot connecting the carbs to the engine, where would these come in and would they be potentially causing my problems? I could not imagine they alone could, but I never know.

that spring i think is what tightens the airbox boots to the carb, maybe without those springs air will leak and cause very lean air fuel mixtures.

also check ur diaphragm u may had destroyed it completely if you tighten the cap and some bits of it are sticking out , it should fit perfectly in the top carb grooves even without the cap on
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Old March 23rd, 2017, 06:00 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by noah_karch View Post
My problem is that my bike was running well prior to taking the carbs off to clean,
I'll go out on a limb here and submit OP now has an internal carb issue.
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Old March 23rd, 2017, 07:47 AM   #11
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This has me thinking he pinched the diaphragm
agreed lots of carb problems.
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Old March 23rd, 2017, 02:27 PM   #12
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Where are you @noah_karch?

OP may be running out of time: going back to school Sunday.
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Old March 23rd, 2017, 06:38 PM   #13
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Hi all,

Sorry I have not been replying quickly, I have been at school all this week, going back over the weekend. The new battery is set to arrive tomorrow, and I am going to break down the bike again and address the seating of the diaphragms first and foremost. Definitely will try to post a video as I go, hoping I did not tear the diaphragms.. Will also be replacing the springs onto the boot connecting to the air box. While I am in there I will also make sure to take time and make sure I have a clean air filter, look into doing a valve adjustment and so on, will keep this updated starting Saturday, most likely in the morning with pictures as I go. Will also clean the carbs again, letting the jets soak for a while, and do a more thorough job.

Any further tips and assistance as I head into the weekend is greatly appreciated, all the help so far in diagnosing the problem has helped tremendously.
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Old March 23rd, 2017, 08:16 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by noah_karch View Post
Hi all,

Sorry I have not been replying quickly, I have been at school all this week, going back over the weekend. The new battery is set to arrive tomorrow, and I am going to break down the bike again and address the seating of the diaphragms first and foremost. Definitely will try to post a video as I go, hoping I did not tear the diaphragms.. Will also be replacing the springs onto the boot connecting to the air box. While I am in there I will also make sure to take time and make sure I have a clean air filter, look into doing a valve adjustment and so on, will keep this updated starting Saturday, most likely in the morning with pictures as I go. Will also clean the carbs again, letting the jets soak for a while, and do a more thorough job.

Any further tips and assistance as I head into the weekend is greatly appreciated, all the help so far in diagnosing the problem has helped tremendously.
if your not confident with the springs you can replace it with a clamp so you will set your own torque on the airbox boots and have a peace of mind
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Old March 23rd, 2017, 08:17 PM   #15
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...........Any further tips and assistance as I head into the weekend is greatly appreciated, all the help so far in diagnosing the problem has helped tremendously.
Welcome, Noah !!!

Check that the needles are firmly attached to the diaphragms, moving up and down together and smoothly.

Find some tips and pictures here:
http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Intake

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Old March 24th, 2017, 06:46 AM   #16
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Be sure to charge the new battery before installing it. They are rarely 100% charged.

An inexpensive volt meter is handy, especially if there are any electrical-related problems.

A fully charged battery should read 12.7V or more.
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Old March 25th, 2017, 12:51 PM   #17
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Hi guys.. I don't think this is looking good for the diaphragms..

Here is one of them: http://imgur.com/a/K4yoX
This is the worse of the two

Here is the other: http://imgur.com/a/kcHKW

I am really hoping that they are salvageable to use in the short term since it's only the edge effected, but I also know in a seal, nothing can be compromised.. I'll be anxiously awaiting the verdict from this. I also saw a forum post on another site that suggested gorilla glue can hold the pieces together reliably, could that be a possible option here in the short term?
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Old March 25th, 2017, 05:25 PM   #18
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I know I'm not telling you what you want to hear... I'd dissuade any attempt at repairing those diaphragms. On a road bike, failure of one or the other in traffic situations could be downright dangerous....a repair simply not reliable and not worth the risk.

I'd urge you to replace both slides or the carbset....as they have other prior issues, which caused you to delve into them to begin with...correct?

The old "carbs are easy" mantra is not an automatic, not necessarily true at all....for all.....in all cases.
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Old March 25th, 2017, 06:15 PM   #19
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I know I'm not telling you what you want to hear... I'd dissuade any attempt at repairing those diaphragms. On a road bike, failure of one or the other in traffic situations could be downright dangerous....a repair simply not reliable and not worth the risk.

I'd urge you to replace both slides or the carbset....as they have other prior issues, which caused you to delve into them to begin with...correct?

The old "carbs are easy" mantra is not an automatic, not necessarily true at all....for all.....in all cases.
I appreciate the honesty even though I was hoping for the green light, I am going to be ordering a pair of new slide diaphragms, or at least that's what I assume the rubber is called. As I looked into torn slide diaphragm issues, the more it looks like these are the culprit of my issue, but I will keep this thread updated up until the issue is resolved after the new ones arrive. Hoping for the best and I again appreciate y'alls feedback.
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Old March 25th, 2017, 06:45 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah_karch View Post
I appreciate the honesty even though I was hoping for the green light, I am going to be ordering a pair of new slide diaphragms, or at least that's what I assume the rubber is called. As I looked into torn slide diaphragm issues, the more it looks like these are the culprit of my issue, but I will keep this thread updated up until the issue is resolved after the new ones arrive. Hoping for the best and I again appreciate y'alls feedback.
It's at least a good portion of it, but possibly not all.
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Old March 25th, 2017, 07:02 PM   #21
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Noah, pause before you order, other options may exist. Some facts and questions , if you don't object? Work with me here....(trying in your best interests)

From Ron Ayers.com....6126VALVE,VACUUM
16126-1198 16126-1200
$144.74

Holy shmoly, thats EACH.

Ebay used...$80 each still big moolah

I must ask, you posted you cleaned the carbs, correct? Were the rubbers ripped BEFORE you went in the first time?
Or......?

Please review the initial reasons you got into the carbs?
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Old March 26th, 2017, 04:57 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by noah_karch View Post
How would I go about doing this? My problem is that my bike was running well prior to taking the carbs off to clean
from your 2nd post, is this accurate info?
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Old March 28th, 2017, 08:07 AM   #23
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah_karch View Post
How would I go about doing this? My problem is that my bike was running well prior to taking the carbs off to clean
from your 2nd post, is this accurate info?
The rubbers I am 95% sure were not damaged when I initially took the carbs off the bike. Being that it is the only observable change from the time I was able to have the bike running, I would think that my mistake of unknowingly ruining those diaphragm slides cost me a running bike.
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Old March 28th, 2017, 08:20 AM   #24
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what now? have you sourced slides?
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Old March 29th, 2017, 12:12 AM   #25
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its cheaper to buy a whole set of carb on ebay than to buy brand new slides
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Old March 29th, 2017, 06:19 AM   #26
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yo Noah, I don't know where you are located but I have 2 perfectly good carb slides from an 06 just laying around from work I did over the last few weeks. I could just ups them to you.
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Old March 29th, 2017, 06:34 AM   #27
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If carbs are whacked above and beyond the slide problem...I've got 2 choices of affordable, refurbed carb sets here
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Old April 1st, 2017, 10:54 AM   #28
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Hello again everyone, I got the new rubber slides, and I got them on, but I cannot get them fully seated. I tried soap and water, but I cannot physically move them past this point it seems like. Here is a picture of one, but it looks like this on both of them.
http://imgur.com/a/BY3TB

It also does hold a vacuum with its current seating if that helps as well.
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Old April 1st, 2017, 01:18 PM   #29
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I removed my last post here, I got the bike to start and run and rode it around! Having issues with the neutral light coming on, but all seems well with the bike and I'm going to make sure to continue riding it through today, but I wanted to thank all of you for the help getting my bike back to being roadworthy.
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Old April 1st, 2017, 01:33 PM   #30
obake
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Name: andrew
Location: washington
Join Date: Mar 2017

Motorcycle(s): 2005 Ex250

Posts: 2
If it were me, I would throw the metal part in the freezer and heat some water (microwave or stove). once the water is boiling, pour it into a bowl and soak the rubber to make it softer. get everything ready and setup to put together without delays.

pull the part out to the freezer and CAREFULLY seat the diaphragm onto it. use something small and non-sharp to roll over the thick area and push it in place. Don't try to yank it on by stretching the thin fragile part.

That said, I've never done this exact job for this specific part.
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Old April 1st, 2017, 03:27 PM   #31
noah_karch
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Name: Noah
Location: South Carolina
Join Date: Feb 2017

Motorcycle(s): 2006 Ninja 250

Posts: 10
Back again. Different issue that I'm thinking is a simple fix.

Bike can be given throttle without issue, new battery will not start the bike without a jump, didn't have access to a charger so I bought a battery I thought was going to be fully charged on arrival. The bike does not attempt to crank, just clicks and dies. RPMs don't change audibly, but taking the battery off it's jumping host makes the gauge increase to the upper end. Bringing the battery back with me and going to get a battery charger, charge it, then try again. Hoping it's just a battery issue, I was able to drive around the bike but I didn't keep it running.
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Old April 1st, 2017, 04:43 PM   #32
Mhancock309
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Name: Mike
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Join Date: Apr 2014

Motorcycle(s): Kawasaki 250r Ninja, Kawasaki Kz750

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I had the same issue with my bike. It ended up being a small hole in the diaphragm. Also when cleaning your carb DO NOT spray the diaphragms or float bowl ring with carb cleaner it will ruin them. I found that out the hard way after I had replaced the one with a hole.
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Old April 1st, 2017, 07:40 PM   #33
ducatiman
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Location: new york
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The desperate use of spraying starting fluid or carb cleaner to persuade a bike to run is a death sentence for assembled diaphragms or orings, will permanently swell or distort them. Get to the root cause....sprays are not a magic repair path!

I'd suggest to spray in disassembled, stripped carbs ONLY.... for cleaning purposes.
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Old April 6th, 2017, 07:57 AM   #34
cableguy
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Name: Adam
Location: MI
Join Date: Nov 2016

Motorcycle(s): The one with two wheels

Posts: 24
Noah,

Your problems sounds very familiar to the ones I was having. I took the carbs apart 4-5 times and then all of a sudden everything work. I think it was a mix of passages in the carbs blocked and possibly leaks at the boots that I may have not tightened or tightened intermittently times 1-4.

Also, buy a trickle charger or jump the bike from a car battery while you are cranking it over and over as the car battery will have far more capacity. (Its what I did and it worked great)


Quote:
Originally Posted by jkv45 View Post
Post a photo of the springs.

It sounds carb-related to me. Either a problem with the diaphragms or carb passages.

Or a vacuum leak if the boots are not secured snugly.
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