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Old May 11th, 2019, 01:23 AM   #1
hunter0319
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09 ninja 250r carb hoses


trying to figure out what hose goes to plastic hose thats circled. my bike is running lean when i give it full throttle and cant seem to find where its getting extra air from
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Old May 11th, 2019, 06:01 AM   #2
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I want to say that's an overflow hose fitting, but I can't confirm for sure.

If it is, not having a hole on it shouldn't cause the problems you are having - I wouldn't think.

Do you have any mods to the engine or intake?

Have you had the carbs off?
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Old May 11th, 2019, 06:09 AM   #3
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correct, on an '08-12 that's the vent/ overflow, upper rail fitting , whatever you want to call it. Usually a hose connected to it, but must remain unplugged, free to 'breathe".
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Old May 11th, 2019, 06:16 AM   #4
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i've seen many with very loose hose ends on the 2 carb vac decel hoses that go between the carbs...shown in your pic to the right

May be worth a check, as they get hotter, they get looser and would create a vac leak right at the fitting

Ditto the hoses on top of the decel valve, check to assure they are tight and not sloppy loose
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Old May 11th, 2019, 02:32 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkv45 View Post
I want to say that's an overflow hose fitting, but I can't confirm for sure.

If it is, not having a hole on it shouldn't cause the problems you are having - I wouldn't think.

Do you have any mods to the engine or intake?

Have you had the carbs off?
has full exhaust on it and has the stage 3 jetting kit on it as well as k&n air filter. the bike ran fine when i got but one day i was riding and my air fuel ratio drop to 9 when i give it full throttle. this is the second time ive had the carbs off and nothing seems to be clogged
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Old May 11th, 2019, 03:33 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by hunter0319 View Post
has full exhaust on it and has the stage 3 jetting kit on it as well as k&n air filter. the bike ran fine when i got but one day i was riding and my air fuel ratio drop to 9 when i give it full throttle. this is the second time ive had the carbs off and nothing seems to be clogged
Uh, that's running rich, not lean. You need to reduce fuel to 13.0-13.5:1 for max power.
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Old May 11th, 2019, 03:54 PM   #7
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has full exhaust on it and has the stage 3 jetting kit on it as well as k&n air filter. the bike ran fine when i got but one day i was riding and my air fuel ratio drop to 9 when i give it full throttle. this is the second time ive had the carbs off and nothing seems to be clogged
How did you know that?

What jets are you running? What brand of jet kit?

How do the plugs look?
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Old May 11th, 2019, 03:55 PM   #8
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Uh, that's running rich, not lean. You need to reduce fuel to 13.0-13.5:1 for max power.
the instructions that came with my wideband sensor says anything below 11.0 on the gauge its running lean
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Old May 11th, 2019, 04:00 PM   #9
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How did you know that?

What jets are you running? What brand of jet kit?

How do the plugs look?
i know i was running lean cause of my wideband sensor. i was told it had a stage 3 jet kit and i seen that it had a 110 on the side of the main jet i beleive and ill get a pic of the plugs here soon
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Old May 11th, 2019, 04:21 PM   #10
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spark plugs

heres the spark plugs
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Old May 11th, 2019, 05:03 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by hunter0319 View Post
the instructions that came with my wideband sensor says anything below 11.0 on the gauge its running lean
Please post the instructions from your wideband sensor. Here's some reading material:

http://www.afrplus.com/AFRplus-unit-functionality.asp
https://www.enginebuildermag.com/200...fuel-equation/

Those plugs were not chopped and not accurate as it incorporates average of idle, steady-state and WOT throttle. You'll want to install brand-new fresh plugs. Then run WOT throttle for about 1/8-mile and turn OFF engine via kill-switch at same time as chopping throttle and squeezing clutch. Brake to stop quickly as transmission requires engine-running for lubrication. Then pull plugs.

Even better, if you've got wideband, does it have datalogging? Very easy to record data and plot some graphs to analyse.


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Old May 11th, 2019, 05:57 PM   #12
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Please post the instructions from your wideband sensor. Here's some reading material:

http://www.afrplus.com/AFRplus-unit-functionality.asp
https://www.enginebuildermag.com/200...fuel-equation/

Those plugs were not chopped and not accurate as it incorporates average of idle, steady-state and WOT throttle. You'll want to install brand-new fresh plugs. Then run WOT throttle for about 1/8-mile and turn OFF engine via kill-switch at same time as chopping throttle. Brake to stop quickly as transmission requires engine-running for lubrication. Then pull plugs.

Even better, if you've got wideband, does it have datalogging? Very easy to record data and plot some graphs to analyse.

okay i mustve miss read the instructions so im running rich? when its hitting 9.0-11.0 at full throttle. the bike seems to run better when its a cooler than when its warm
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Old May 11th, 2019, 06:35 PM   #13
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okay i mustve miss read the instructions so im running rich? when its hitting 9.0-11.0 at full throttle. the bike seems to run better when its a cooler than when its warm
Yes, cold air is denser, more oxygen molecules per piston stroke which may result in 10:1 AFR.

Warmer air (heated by warmer engine) is less dense, so fewer oxygen molecules per stroke. Yet same amount of fuel will result in richer mixture of 9:1. Which causes lazier burn and sluggish throttle response. Not to mention that much fuel will wash oil from cylinder walls and cause premature wear on engine.

BTW - 9:1 AFR is at limit for rich end of wideband sensor, so you may actually have richer than that mixtures.

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Old May 11th, 2019, 06:52 PM   #14
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Some background on AFR tuning. Stoich mixture is 14.7:1 AFR; which is 14.7 parts air to 1 part fuel by mass. This results in cleanest burn with most of fuel and air combusted. Highest combustion temperatures and lowest combination of emissions gasses:



However, this really only works at partial-throttle steady-speed cruising with plenty of time for combustion. When you open up throttle and want more power for passing and acceleration, we want slightly richer 12:1 to 13.5:1 ratio. Why?

Because of space and volume and incomplete mixing of fuel and air. Due to incomplete atomisation and dispersion of petrol in combustion chamber, there are areas with leaner and and some areas richer than 14.7:1 ratios. This results in some areas with extra oxygen molecules with no fuel to combust with. So a little extra fuel is needed to supplement lean spots to ensure that all oxygen has matching fuel for maximum combustion pressure (BMEP). However, too much fuel is no good either as extra petrol cools and slows down combustion, resulting in incomplete combustion and lower cylinder pressure and power.

On carbed engines this max-power enriched mixture is around 12.5-13.0:1 AFR.
Fuel-injected engines gets max-power around 13.0-13.5:1 AFR due to better fuel-atomisation.
Newer direct-injected engines have even better mixing and can maintain 14.0-14.7:1 AFR under WOT for maximum power.
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Old May 11th, 2019, 09:04 PM   #15
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Here's photo of carb-vent hose routing. It should go up and down between intake tubes from airbox and out around rear-shock. There's a hose-routing loop down there somewhere with vent-tube from crankcase and airbox.




I recommend getting a hose connected to that vent ASAP. I've had stuff fall or crawl in there and kept me out of points running (should've won last season!), due to sitting on sidelines messing with my carbs when I could've been racing!
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Old May 11th, 2019, 09:10 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
Some background on AFR tuning. Stoich mixture is 14.7:1 AFR; which is 14.7 parts air to 1 part fuel by mass. This results in cleanest burn with most of fuel and air combusted. Highest combustion temperatures and lowest combination of emissions gasses:



However, this really only works at partial-throttle steady-speed cruising with plenty of time for combustion. When you open up throttle and want more power for passing and acceleration, we want slightly richer 12:1 to 13.5:1 ratio. Why?

Because of space and volume and incomplete mixing of fuel and air. Due to incomplete atomisation and dispersion of petrol in combustion chamber, there are areas with leaner and and some areas richer than 14.7:1 ratios. This results in some areas with extra oxygen molecules with no fuel to combust with. So a little extra fuel is needed to supplement lean spots to ensure that all oxygen has matching fuel for maximum combustion pressure (BMEP). However, too much fuel is no good either as extra petrol cools and slows down combustion, resulting in incomplete combustion and lower cylinder pressure and power.

On carbed engines this max-power enriched mixture is around 12.5-13.0:1 AFR.
Fuel-injected engines gets max-power around 13.0-13.5:1 AFR due to better fuel-atomisation.
Newer direct-injected engines have even better mixing and can maintain 14.0-14.7:1 AFR under WOT for maximum power.
so what should i check to see what is causing it to drop to 9.0 with full throttle. also when i pull the clutch in the rpms hang for a min and then fall down
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Old May 12th, 2019, 06:57 AM   #17
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so what should i check to see what is causing it to drop to 9.0 with full throttle. also when i pull the clutch in the rpms hang for a min and then fall down
Sounds like the carbs need to come off and be cleaned and checked.

Hanging RPMs usually mean a vacuum leak or overly lean mixture.

Because it's got a "Stage 3" kit, you know someone has been in there, and chances are something isn't right. Unless the engine is built-to-the-hilt, some minor jetting and mixture adjustments are all that's required - so it may be over-done.

You want to know the Jet sizes, clean everything, and set the float levels. Then you have a place to start.
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Old May 12th, 2019, 09:21 AM   #18
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Sounds like the carbs need to come off and be cleaned and checked.

Hanging RPMs usually mean a vacuum leak or overly lean mixture.

Because it's got a "Stage 3" kit, you know someone has been in there, and chances are something isn't right. Unless the engine is built-to-the-hilt, some minor jetting and mixture adjustments are all that's required - so it may be over-done.

You want to know the Jet sizes, clean everything, and set the float levels. Then you have a place to start.
would a bad gas cap cause it to suck to much air? how do i go about checking the float levels and i beleive i seen a 110 on the main jets. im assuming that thats stock isnt it? i was told it had a stage 3 jet kit but im thinking that it doesnt
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Old May 12th, 2019, 09:59 AM   #19
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Going that rich when you go max throttle indicates to me that your main jet is way too big. Stock jet is 98, and I actually went a size smaller when tuning mine with a full exhaust replacement.

You didn't say if you have the airbox or pod filters, if you don't have pods, just put a stock jet on and see what happens. If you do have pods, either go back to an airbox, or just start dropping jet sizes until you find one the right one.
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Old May 12th, 2019, 10:02 AM   #20
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Going that rich when you go max throttle indicates to me that your main jet is way too big. Stock jet is 98, and I actually went a size smaller when tuning mine with a full exhaust replacement.

You didn't say if you have the airbox or pod filters, if you don't have pods, just put a stock jet on and see what happens. If you do have pods, either go back to an airbox, or just start dropping jet sizes until you find one the right one.
the bike ran good when i got. it the wideband read between 12.0 and 14.0 with full throttle. should i try turning the mixture screws on each carb?
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Old May 12th, 2019, 11:41 AM   #21
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the bike ran good when i got. it the wideband read between 12.0 and 14.0 with full throttle. should i try turning the mixture screws on each carb?
If you still have an airbox, your 110 jet is, and always will be, way too big. The only explanation I can think of for why it was running ok is that it was partially blocked and somehow became unblocked.

If you have pods, perhaps there is something suddenly obstructing in intake air?

Tweaking the mixture screws mostly affects low throttle positions and won't do anything for your max throttle issue.

Did you clean the carbs or do anything else to the bike before this issue popped up, or did it literally come out of nowhere?
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Old May 12th, 2019, 04:59 PM   #22
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If you still have an airbox, your 110 jet is, and always will be, way too big. The only explanation I can think of for why it was running ok is that it was partially blocked and somehow became unblocked.

If you have pods, perhaps there is something suddenly obstructing in intake air?

Tweaking the mixture screws mostly affects low throttle positions and won't do anything for your max throttle issue.

Did you clean the carbs or do anything else to the bike before this issue popped up, or did it literally come out of nowhere?
im using the k&n filter the stock air box was deleted when i got it. and i did nothing to the bike besides change the air filter on it before this happened. is the 110 jet to big? has full racing exhaust and the k&n filter
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Old May 12th, 2019, 07:32 PM   #23
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Most likely carbs were clogged with jelled petrol from sitting around before you bought it. Limiting fuel flow just happened to balance huge jets and coincidentally provided proper AFR. Temporarily... Until further use dissolved an clear out clog and now you've got stable configuration with way too much fuel.

In stock trim, newgens have slightly lean midrange and super-rich WOT/high-end. Intake has no restriction (other than intake snorkel). Removing airbox completely doesn't improve flow any, so K&N pods won't change anything either. Full exhaust does yield a 20% improvement in flow and 20% improvement in power.

My race-bike was dyno-tuned by sponsor Spears Racing after I installed full Tyga exhaust. They found that my WOT/high-end mixture was still too rich and went to smaller DynoJet 96 main jet and stg. 2 needle. This gave us dyno-chart like this . We couldn't go even smaller main-jet for even more power due to leaning out mid-range too much.






Stg.2 needle is at very bottom (4). Notice that tip is larger diameter than stock needle #3? This has effect of reducing fuel and leaning out WOT/high-end even more than just down-sizing to 96 mains alone. Problem is mid-range lean spot. Can't shim needle because that would also richen top-end. I'm going to custom-grind some needles on mini-lathe

Check out this thread for related discussion. Please read the linked magazine article where they prepared newg en for racing: https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=329085
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Old May 12th, 2019, 09:20 PM   #24
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Hmm looks like Sport Rider is no more. Can find archive of article here: 2008 Kawasaki Ninja 250 - Track Racing on the Cheap
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Old May 12th, 2019, 10:42 PM   #25
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Most likely carbs were clogged with jelled petrol from sitting around before you bought it. Limiting fuel flow just happened to balance huge jets and coincidentally provided proper AFR. Temporarily... Until further use dissolved an clear out clog and now you've got stable configuration with way too much fuel.

In stock trim, newgens have slightly lean midrange and super-rich WOT/high-end. Intake has no restriction (other than intake snorkel). Removing airbox completely doesn't improve flow any, so K&N pods won't change anything either. Full exhaust does yield a 20% improvement in flow and 20% improvement in power.

My race-bike was dyno-tuned by sponsor Spears Racing after I installed full Tyga exhaust. They found that my WOT/high-end mixture was still too rich and went to smaller DynoJet 96 main jet and stg. 2 needle. This gave us dyno-chart like this . We couldn't go even smaller main-jet for even more power due to leaning out mid-range too much.






Stg.2 needle is at very bottom (4). Notice that tip is larger diameter than stock needle #3? This has effect of reducing fuel and leaning out WOT/high-end even more than just down-sizing to 96 mains alone. Problem is mid-range lean spot. Can't shim needle because that would also richen top-end. I'm going to custom-grind some needles on mini-lathe

Check out this thread for related discussion. Please read the linked magazine article where they prepared newg en for racing: https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=329085
so should i start with down sizing my main jet? what do you recommended i start with?
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Old May 12th, 2019, 11:06 PM   #26
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Start with all factory setting:

#38 pilot
2.5 turns out pilot screws
#98 main jets

Monitor with wideband. Datalogged with RPM if possible for analysis.
Then make adjustments based upon data collected.
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Old May 12th, 2019, 11:08 PM   #27
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Start with all factory setting:

#38 pilot
2.5 turns out pilot screws
#98 main jets

Monitor with wideband. Datalogged with RPM if possible for analysis.
Then make adjustments based upon data collected.
even with having aftermarket needles?
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Old May 12th, 2019, 11:09 PM   #28
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Sure, let's pull them out and see how they compare to stock ones.
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Old May 12th, 2019, 11:12 PM   #29
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Sure, let's pull them out and see how they compare to stock ones.
Okay I’ll pull them out tomorrow and get some pics of the main jets as well
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Old May 20th, 2019, 07:26 AM   #30
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Okay so I have this same hole/ whatever on my carb . And my tanks water leak thing was connected to it , so when it rained water would get into my carb . Clearly that was the issue . So should I just leave it unplugged?
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Old May 20th, 2019, 07:27 AM   #31
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any update on your issue?????
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Old May 20th, 2019, 07:31 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by JADEN05 View Post
any update on your issue?????
When rain would go around my gas cap it would leak into my carb , so whoever had my bike before me ****ed up the hosing , I’m trying to figure out what goes there ( if anything ) .
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Old May 20th, 2019, 03:23 PM   #33
DannoXYZ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylmcf View Post
Okay so I have this same hole/ whatever on my carb . And my tanks water leak thing was connected to it , so when it rained water would get into my carb . Clearly that was the issue . So should I just leave it unplugged?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylmcf View Post
When rain would go around my gas cap it would leak into my carb , so whoever had my bike before me ****ed up the hosing , I’m trying to figure out what goes there ( if anything ) .
Yes, you need to redo your hoses:

1. Tank drain hose does down left side of bike, through metal loop next to idle-adjuster knob, continue down through shock hole in swingarm. Ends up through another wire loop below swingarm and aims towards ground to drain water.

2. Centre carb vent hose aims up & down between intake runners from airbox as shown in above photo. Also goes through shock hole in swingarm and out through metal loop below swingarm next to tank drain tube as well
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