Exhaust system prices- why so high?

[CThunder-blue]

It amazes me how expensive the exhaust systems for motorcycles are. For the same cost of a yoshi full system, I got a mandrel bent 3" stainless steel catback with full titanium mufflers for my stealth. The materials in a motorcycle exhaust is maybe 1/8-1/5 of what a catback is in a car. I've never understood why slip ons and full systems cost as much as they do.

[Alex]

Volume.

[dino74]

Originally Posted by Alex

Volume.

Why would a louder exhaust cost more? J/K

[Nemesis]

It doesn't really surprise me only because they CAN. But what bothers me is the fact that the pre-gen's full system exhausts are like $250-$350 but with the new-gens it's double if not close to triple that even though the bike's pretty much the same.

[coondog]

the Demand for something determines the cost. Everybodys got one, I want one too, said Van Hagar.

[Blackwidow]

why is cheese so expensive, why are tomatos so expensive, why is milk so expensive? its a product people want so they hitch up prices cuz they can.

[CThunder-blue]

It's a shame we don't have shops who will make a system that won't over charge for products. I understand they need to recoup R&D. I just think that if they really wanted to sell more, they would lower their prices, not raise them just because the big name manufacturer has set the price point. I have a full yoshi exhaust and I bought the bike this way, so I'm not looking for a hand out. I just feel bad for you guys who are shelling out $500+ for something that costs maybe $75 in materials and another $100 in labor to produce for a small shop, much less cost for a big name.

It really applies to other stuff as well. CNC rearset adjusters. $100? really? for about $10 of aluminum and 10 minutes in a cnc mill and another 20 minutes for powdercoat or anodizing?

[backinthesaddleagain]

Originally Posted by Blackwidow

why is cheese so expensive, why are tomatos so expensive, why is milk so expensive? its a product people want so they hitch up prices cuz they can.

agreed I'm no farmer but you can breed more cows and get more milk

[backinthesaddleagain]

Originally Posted by coondog

the Demand for something determines the cost. Everybodys got one, I want one too, said Van Hagar.

Everybody wants some, hey how 'bout you?

[CThunder-blue]

Originally Posted by Blackwidow

why is cheese so expensive, why are tomatos so expensive, why is milk so expensive? its a product people want so they hitch up prices cuz they can.

See, this is the mentality that let's these people get away with it. All it really takes is one shop to make products and charge reasonable rates before people start to realize that their prices are hurting their sales.

I know all about this stuff coming from the 3000gt/stealth community. 10 years ago when there were 3 shops making stuff, they got to dictate prices. Along comes a shop 4 years later that says, "Hey, we can make the same stuff and sell it for more reasonable costs. We can also sell you the same brand stuff for less." The demand for this stuff wasn't any higher than it was 4 years ago. It just takes a shop that cares about the community and isn't greedy. Because of this, the older vendors had to finally reign in their price gouging and re-evaluate their prices. This new shop, IPS motorsports is now so successful that they expanded their business into the camaro/corvette crowd, which is now their bread and butter. They continue to serve the 3000GT/ Stealth community by slashing their prices to sell stuff to them just a little above cost. Most recently, they had a special price deal on transfer cases that another vendor had "on sale" for $550. IPS was selling the same oem transfer cases for $289. All of a sudden, the other shop posted that they would price match "any other sales on transfer cases."

You guys can post and say it's volume or supply & demand. What it really comes down to is greed.

[kkim]

so, make your own.

[CThunder-blue]

I would if I was in the business.

[kkim]

somehow I doubt it. you wouldn't have the cash flow to start up and operate what it takes to run a legitimate business that shows a profit come tax time.

[Live2ride]

Many companies that sell similar products will come to an agreement that helps them all to maximize profits. For example if I could make an exhaust for $150 and you could make a similar exhaust for $150 then we could agree to sell them for $500. In that agreement, we both can maximize profits while limiting competitive prices. It sucks for consumers but for the two companies they make bank. They may have to sell exhausts for a higher price because people don't go out and buy a new exhaust everyday for the new gen 250. People don't buy exhausts nearly as much as other parts and many new gen owners will not add a new exhaust to their arsenal because they only have the bike for a short amount of time as practice for a larger bike. Also, the hp gain from an aftermarket exhaust for a 250 is much less hp than a supersport; therefore there is less incentive to buy a $500 exhaust for a 250 in the first place.

[CThunder-blue]

Originally Posted by kkim

somehow I doubt it. you wouldn't have the cash flow to start up and operate what it takes to run a legitimate business that shows a profit come tax time.

Like I said "If I was in the business." That would mean I would already be set up for it. I know how to run a bridgeport mill, I can powder coat, and I can tig weld steel and aluminum. I'm pretty handy when it comes to fabrication. I just don't have the equipment nor the time to play around with it. In the end, we're all subject to what we're capable of and what our resources are. If I was laid off or looking to change my line of work, I would most likely get into machining. I love the smell of cutting metal.

Originally Posted by Live2ride

Many companies that sell similar products will come to an agreement that helps them all to maximize profits. For example if I could make an exhaust for $150 and you could make a similar exhaust for $150 then we could agree to sell them for $500. In that agreement, we both can maximize profits while limiting competitive prices. It sucks for consumers but for the two companies they make bank. They may have to sell exhausts for a higher price because people don't go out and buy a new exhaust everyday for the new gen 250. People don't buy exhausts nearly as much as other parts and many new gen owners will not add a new exhaust to their arsenal because they only have the bike for a short amount of time as practice for a larger bike. Also, the hp gain from an aftermarket exhaust for a 250 is much less hp than a supersport; therefore there is less incentive to buy a $500 exhaust for a 250 in the first place.

Yep. This is what happened a few years back when companies got together with SEMA and started standardizing prices.

[Reswob]

I'm guessing it's because everyone who owns a sportbike, for some reason, need to have an aftermarket exhaust. So the manufacturer can rape you because everyone "needs" their product and will pay stupid prices.

[Nemesis]

Originally Posted by CThunder-blue

Like I said "If I was in the business." That would mean I would already be set up for it. I know how to run a bridgeport mill, I can powder coat, and I can tig weld steel and aluminum. I'm pretty handy when it comes to fabrication. I just don't have the equipment nor the time to play around with it. In the end, we're all subject to what we're capable of and what our resources are. If I was laid off or looking to change my line of work, I would most likely get into machining. I love the smell of cutting metal.

I believe you can.

BTW, there's a fabricator in LA that makes custom exhaust at half the cost of a production exhaust.

But I agree with what KKim is saying...to make one is simple but to make an exhaust that will perform and put out some good numbers will take some cash. But in the end, if you nail it and sell a bunch you can make up for your loss.

Come make me an exhaust.

[bob706]

Originally Posted by CThunder-blue

Like I said "If I was in the business." That would mean I would already be set up for it. I know how to run a bridgeport mill, I can powder coat, and I can tig weld steel and aluminum. I'm pretty handy when it comes to fabrication. I just don't have the equipment nor the time to play around with it.

If you were in the business you would charge what the market could bear. Don't forget time is money too.

[Alex]

There's a fundamental misunderstanding of pricing in this thread. Price of anything has very little to do with cost of materials, or even cost of labor. Price is ultimately determined by supply and demand. Whatever delta there is from the materials/labor cost to sales price is not a measure of greed, it's a measure of value. This isn't a defense of price collusion, but it is a statement that assuming the lowest price is always the right way to go from either the buyer's viewpoint or seller's viewpoint just doesn't cut it.

A seller needs to model what will ultimately grow their business in the best way (high price low volume, low price high volume, and every combination in between). It needs to factor in not only competition, but also what will allow and encourage customers to become repeat customers. No customer wants to walk away from any transaction feeling that they were taken advantage of, and companies who succeed long term are good at managing those expectations; pricing is a part of that.

[Daeldren]

why do designer purses cost at least a grand?

[CThunder-blue]

Imo, repeat customers comes from the quality of the product and the customer service. Cost doesn't determine either of those two unless you are outsourcing.

[CThunder-blue]

Originally Posted by Daeldren

why do designer purses cost at least a grand?

Because women are psycho. You'll find that that answers many of life's mysteries

[Alex]

Originally Posted by CThunder-blue

Imo, repeat customers comes from the quality of the product and the customer service. Cost doesn't determine either of those two unless you are outsourcing.

I disagree, cost is definitely a component of customer satisfaction. The customer has to feel that what they paid was appropriate for the quality of the product and the customer service that was associated with the product itself and the transaction. If the customer feels that they got great value for the money, they are happier customers, and more likely to become repeat customers.

[CThunder-blue]

Originally Posted by Alex

I disagree, cost is definitely a component of customer satisfaction. The customer has to feel that what they paid was appropriate for the quality of the product and the customer service that was associated with the product itself and the transaction. If the customer feels that they got great value for the money, they are happier customers, and more likely to become repeat customers.

Cost may be a factor, but not all the time. Would you pay more for a mechanic that you trust to work on your bike or pay less to someone that you don't know? I know many people who are repeat customers of 3sx.com because of their customer service. They have high shipping rates and their prices aren't even competitive. They actually price them on the high side of things, yet people continue to buy from them because they know that they will always be taken care of. I am also willing to pay a little extra if I know that what I buy will be made of quality components and the company I buy it from can stand behind what they sell.

Now, it doesn't stop me from shopping around, but that just means there are some great companies out there. Take Shoei for instance. Their helmets are DOT and Snell approved, but so are Bell, HJC, and other brands that cost less. Why did I go with Shoei? Check out their policy on helmet inspections. If you drop or wreck your helmet, you can send your helmet in for inspection. They inspect it for free and ship it back to you for free. That to me is excellent customer service. Couple that with high quality and I don't mind paying $400+ for a helmet.

[ztrack157]

Most the times its the name your buying.

[coondog]

Originally Posted by Blackwidow

why is cheese so expensive, why are tomatos so expensive, why is milk so expensive? its a product people want so they hitch up prices cuz they can.

bullseye girl! ride on.

[coondog]

Originally Posted by Alex

There's a fundamental misunderstanding of pricing in this thread. Price of anything has very little to do with cost of materials, or even cost of labor. Price is ultimately determined by supply and demand. Whatever delta there is from the materials/labor cost to sales price is not a measure of greed, it's a measure of value. This isn't a defense of price collusion, but it is a statement that assuming the lowest price is always the right way to go from either the buyer's viewpoint or seller's viewpoint just doesn't cut it.

A seller needs to model what will ultimately grow their business in the best way (high price low volume, low price high volume, and every combination in between). It needs to factor in not only competition, but also what will allow and encourage customers to become repeat customers. No customer wants to walk away from any transaction feeling that they were taken advantage of, and companies who succeed long term are good at managing those expectations; pricing is a part of that.

only problem alex, is you must'nt think monopolies exist anymore due to being outlawed. but there are more end runs in capitalistic ventures than the even above average joe knows.

[Alex]

While their are certainly instances of non-competitive pricing, monopolies aren't nearly as common as people think. What it comes down to is barrier to entry. If there are a very small number of companies owning the whole market, and if it's almost impossible for newcomers in that market due to fundamental issues, and there is motivation for those few companies to match pricing (either intentionally or unintentionally), well, there's an interesting discussion about a monopoly/duopoly/oligopoly.

The fact by itself that there are only a few companies doing X, whatever X is, doesn't mean that there is a monopoly by any stretch. It could just mean there isn't nearly enough profit in X to attract any investment or additional organizations chasing that profit. For many products, that happens to be the case.

[coondog]

Originally Posted by backinthesaddleagain

Everybody wants some, hey how 'bout you?

I think one of the biggest performance mods i did was strip my bike bare. There are a few dirt cheap things you can do as well, forget spending $1000+ on a $3k bike is the way i see it. Scott asked me a question one day and i answered vaguely because it took me a long time to come up with my pipes (I did by Mikuni dynojets and drilled out the EPA covers to turn). I have a cool air radiator intake, great aerodynamic helmet, don't put 28 psi in my tires - not even in the same universe and a couple of other extremely minor things that make my bike just want air air air and she'll go there there there F'in fast. It's a speed run bike, pure and simple well over three figures, including speedo error. (Fl. is flat helps too). I kept my 08 stock, then after selling what wasn't trashed by first weeks owner i put a D&D single can system on and did the little things as well, but with 500cc to start the boost is half what it is on the ninjette and it's the bike i use for general purpose. I think the only extra weight on the 250 is the american auto claxon horn. Beep Beep Blood, later.

[coolbreeze]

Originally Posted by Live2ride

Many companies that sell similar products will come to an agreement that helps them all to maximize profits. For example if I could make an exhaust for $150 and you could make a similar exhaust for $150 then we could agree to sell them for $500. In that agreement, we both can maximize profits while limiting competitive prices. It sucks for consumers but for the two companies they make bank. They may have to sell exhausts for a higher price because people don't go out and buy a new exhaust everyday for the new gen 250. People don't buy exhausts nearly as much as other parts and many new gen owners will not add a new exhaust to their arsenal because they only have the bike for a short amount of time as practice for a larger bike. Also, the hp gain from an aftermarket exhaust for a 250 is much less hp than a supersport; therefore there is less incentive to buy a $500 exhaust for a 250 in the first place.

Isn't that collusion and/or price fixing? I thought that was illegal.

[CynicalC]

Originally Posted by backinthesaddleagain

agreed I'm no farmer but you can breed more cows and get more milk

Reminds me of an article I read last year - with hilarious pictures!

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125473606240264063.html

Anyway yeah it's a bit of a joke. My 3" stainless HKS Carbon Ti is like $700 or so. No reason a bike exhaust should cost as much. If you're at all patient though you can find a good deal. I got my muzzy used off ebay for $175! Took about a week of waiting.

[CynicalC]

Originally Posted by coolbreeze

Isn't that collusion and/or price fixing? I thought that was illegal.

Not really. Generally though, things tend to work out for the consumer somehow. For example a company called GT Spec made headers for my car and they cost a fortune. The factory that produced them, I think in the Philippines, realized they can just produce them under a different name and sell them direct to distributors for 1/3 the price, make a fortune and quit before they get slapped with lawsuits. That's why my GT Spec headers say Vibrant on them.

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by CThunder-blue

See, this is the mentality that let's these people get away with it. All it really takes is one shop to make products and charge reasonable rates before people start to realize that their prices are hurting their sales.

I know all about this stuff coming from the 3000gt/stealth community. 10 years ago when there were 3 shops making stuff, they got to dictate prices. Along comes a shop 4 years later that says, "Hey, we can make the same stuff and sell it for more reasonable costs. We can also sell you the same brand stuff for less." The demand for this stuff wasn't any higher than it was 4 years ago. It just takes a shop that cares about the community and isn't greedy. Because of this, the older vendors had to finally reign in their price gouging and re-evaluate their prices. This new shop, IPS motorsports is now so successful that they expanded their business into the camaro/corvette crowd, which is now their bread and butter. They continue to serve the 3000GT/ Stealth community by slashing their prices to sell stuff to them just a little above cost. Most recently, they had a special price deal on transfer cases that another vendor had "on sale" for $550. IPS was selling the same oem transfer cases for $289. All of a sudden, the other shop posted that they would price match "any other sales on transfer cases."

You guys can post and say it's volume or supply & demand. What it really comes down to is greed.

What you described *IS* supply and demand. Demand attracts new competitors to the market. Technically, it is the potential profit from the demand, even when reduced by increased supply, but it still boils down to S&D.

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by coolbreeze

Isn't that collusion and/or price fixing? I thought that was illegal.

Yup. Illegal under RICO. PC memory makers got slapped hard a few years ago.

[Snake]

No one yet has factored in the high cost of research and developement. Companies put up large sums of money in materials and engineering the prototype with no assurances that consumers will buy their product. It sometimes takes a company several months or more before they even start to see a return on their investment.

[CynicalC]

Originally Posted by Snake

No one yet has factored in the high cost of research and developement. Companies put up large sums of money in materials and engineering the prototype with no assurances that consumers will buy their product. It sometimes takes a company several months or more before they even start to see a return on their investment.

honestly it's just a pipe with a muffler on the end... There's not a whole f of a lot of R&D to do on them, considering it's up to the buyer to rejet and tune anyway.

[kkim]

Originally Posted by CynicalC

honestly it's just a pipe with a muffler on the end... There's not a whole f of a lot of R&D to do on them, considering it's up to the buyer to rejet and tune anyway.

again, make your own, if it's that easy.

[gfloyd2002]

Originally Posted by CynicalC

honestly it's just a pipe with a muffler on the end... There's not a whole f of a lot of R&D to do on them, considering it's up to the buyer to rejet and tune anyway.

Good point. I'll just gather up the high temp carbon fiber, aircraft grade titanium, 304 series stainless steel, and 6061 aluminum billet stock sitting around the garage, then add some of the German made muffler packing that I have in the kitchen. From their I'll design the airflow resonance using my laptop and my detailed knowlede of how air flows under pressure, taking into account what I know of the ninjette engine. I'll use 3D CAD modeling to make sure the design is right. From there I'll fabricate the parts, including the specialty gaskets, from my own CNC machine and use my amazing welding skills, since it is so easy to weld high-performance metals. I'll bend the tubes with my shop's mandril, shifting head benders to make sure I get seamless, weld-free bends that allow smooth flow. Then I'll put it all together to make sure I'm within micrometers of what was designed, and confirm that it works on my home dyno.

Granted, not every muffler manufacturer does this, specifically focused on ninjette-specific design. But Area P does. Worth every penny, imho.

[kkim]

Originally Posted by gfloyd2002

Then I'll put it all together to make sure I'm within micrometers of what was designed, and confirm that it works on my home dyno.

... then, start all over again when the first, second or even third designs don't produce the type of power/engine characteristics you want associated with you name and reputation. yeah, I can see the OP's opinion on exhausts now. Why didn't I think of building my own???

[CynicalC]

Originally Posted by kkim

again, make your own, if it's that easy.

Why so defensive? It really IS that easy. Like I said it's just a pipe with a can on the end. Anyone with half a workshop, fabrication skills and resourcefulness could throw something together that will "work". I'm not saying you don't pay extra for high quality materials, good workmanship, and r&d. The Area P exhaust, for example is beautiful. Of course you can spend a year of r&d and dyno tuning on any exhaust, but in the end, nobody is going to see even close to the same performance gains unless they do the same thing to their own bike.