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Old September 4th, 2017, 05:05 PM   #1
Indy88
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Question 415 chain and sproket install question

Today I was going to install a 415 chain and sprocket kit but I ran into some troubles. First time doing a chain and sprocket install but it didn't seem to difficult. I ordered the DID ERZ 415 non o-ring chain. I got the sprockets on no problem and cut the old chain.

But I ran into trouble when it came time to cut the new chain. The new chain was a few links to long so I went to cut it thinking there would be no problems. The tool I was using was the DID 500R which is meant for 520 and up chains so right off the bat the back plate of the chain tool didn't fit snuggly at all. I decided to risk it and try to cut the chain anyway. Since the the backplate wasn't snug, the cutting pin didn't move perpendicular to the chain and pushed the pin at an angle. After messing up, I had to cut the link of with a dremel. Luckily I was cutting the chain for a length at the middle adjustment line so I could move the wheel closer and still use the same chain.

Obviously I don't want to mess up again and want to get the right tool for the job. So what tool can I use to cut the chain, press the plate, and rivet the master link. DID doesn't have any tool I can find and all other chain tools are also for 520 chains or larger.

TLDR: What tool is used to cut, press, and rivet a 415 chain?

Thanks in advance
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Old September 4th, 2017, 05:41 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indy88 View Post
Today I was going to install a 415 chain and sprocket kit but I ran into some troubles. First time doing a chain and sprocket install but it didn't seem to difficult. I ordered the DID ERZ 415 non o-ring chain. I got the sprockets on no problem and cut the old chain.

But I ran into trouble when it came time to cut the new chain. The new chain was a few links to long so I went to cut it thinking there would be no problems. The tool I was using was the DID 500R which is meant for 520 and up chains so right off the bat the back plate of the chain tool didn't fit snuggly at all. I decided to risk it and try to cut the chain anyway. Since the the backplate wasn't snug, the cutting pin didn't move perpendicular to the chain and pushed the pin at an angle. After messing up, I had to cut the link of with a dremel. Luckily I was cutting the chain for a length at the middle adjustment line so I could move the wheel closer and still use the same chain.

Obviously I don't want to mess up again and want to get the right tool for the job. So what tool can I use to cut the chain, press the plate, and rivet the master link. DID doesn't have any tool I can find and all other chain tools are also for 520 chains or larger.

TLDR: What tool is used to cut, press, and rivet a 415 chain?

Thanks in advance
i run the 415 with the snap, screw the rivit link, dont get a cheap masterlink, it will break, get a good d.i.d masterlink with a snap retainer
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Old September 4th, 2017, 06:28 PM   #3
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I just grind off a rivet head and punch the rivet through when I want to shorten a chain. I also prefer the clip type master links, with something like 3M weather strip adhesive smeared over the clip.
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Old September 5th, 2017, 02:57 AM   #4
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I just grind off a rivet head and punch the rivet through when I want to shorten a chain. I also prefer the clip type master links, with something like 3M weather strip adhesive smeared over the clip.
I think back on all the year and miles I put on bikes with master links in the chains and never had a problem. Not that the an endless chain is a bad idea but pulling the swing arm - really?

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Old September 5th, 2017, 07:16 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Triple Jim View Post
I just grind off a rivet head and punch the rivet through when I want to shorten a chain. I also prefer the clip type master links, with something like 3M weather strip adhesive smeared over the clip.
I like rivet master links for the peace of mind. Also since I'm racing its one less thing to safety wire and worry about
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Old September 5th, 2017, 07:24 AM   #6
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AFM Racing doesn't allow safety wiring of master links, so I use Jim's method of a little glue on clip. I've got a 428 chain conversion. Lighter than stock, yet also stronger and more durable due to wider rollers. With X-ring chain it's lasted me an entire season so far with racing and over 30 track days.

For breaking chains. I've used this same tool for 30-yrs. It's chain-size independent.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004HKIU4C

To install rivet type master links, you can use a pin-type tool with block-off plate on back side to support pin.
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Old September 5th, 2017, 07:28 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by JacRyann View Post
AFM Racing doesn't allow safety wiring of master links, so I use Jim's method of a little glue on clip. I've got a 428 chain conversion. Lighter than stock, yet also stronger and more durable due to wider rollers. With X-ring chain it's lasted me an entire season so far with racing and over 30 track days.
Even if I do switch to a clip style master link, don't I still need to press the plate on to the chain? How would I go about doing that, Is there a special tool for 415 chains?
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Old September 5th, 2017, 07:46 AM   #8
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The side plate is a slip fit on the pins. The catch is that O-ring or X-ring chaings need the rubber rings to be compressed enough to get the clip on. I use a pair of small Vise Grips to gently squeeze the side plates together. You can put the clip on one pin and reposition the pliers to let you get the clip on the other pin. Of course put the clip on so the open end is trailing when the chain moves (closed end toward engine with clip at top of chain loop, toward tail light when it's at the bottom of the loop).

I expect there are other ways to do it too.
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Old September 5th, 2017, 08:19 AM   #9
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I had an inkling that since the 415 chain is no o-ring I wouldn't need to press the plate, seems that was correct. I ordered a bicycle chain cutter that works for 415 chains. Now all I have to worry about is how to rivet the master link. I may buy a clip style if I can't find a solution, but there has to be a way to use a rivet master link otherwise they wouldn't sell it.
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Old September 5th, 2017, 08:26 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indy88 View Post
I had an inkling that since the 415 chain is no o-ring I wouldn't need to press the plate, seems that was correct. I ordered a bicycle chain cutter that works for 415 chains. Now all I have to worry about is how to rivet the master link. I may buy a clip style if I can't find a solution, but there has to be a way to use a rivet master link otherwise they wouldn't sell it.
maintence , chain cleaning, everything easier, nows the time to go clip style.
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Old September 5th, 2017, 08:29 AM   #11
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your talking a non o ring chain, your going to want to clean it religiously,
easier to soak in kerosene when you can take on and off.
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Old September 5th, 2017, 08:51 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indy88 View Post
Even if I do switch to a clip style master link, don't I still need to press the plate on to the chain? How would I go about doing that, Is there a special tool for 415 chains?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple Jim View Post
The side plate is a slip fit on the pins. The catch is that O-ring or X-ring chaings need the rubber rings to be compressed enough to get the clip on. I use a pair of small Vise Grips to gently squeeze the side plates together. You can put the clip on one pin and reposition the pliers to let you get the clip on the other pin. Of course put the clip on so the open end is trailing when the chain moves (closed end toward engine with clip at top of chain loop, toward tail light when it's at the bottom of the loop).

I expect there are other ways to do it too.
I lube the O/X-rings and put on the side-plate by hand. Then lay an additional old side-plate over to give space for pins to slide into. Then squeeze with vise-grips.

If it's a particularly tight fit, I'll do one pin at a time by putting a washer over pin-head and squeezing them one at a time.

I suppose you can use the pin-pusher tool to press side-plate back on. Just aim pusher-pin right in middle of plate.
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Old September 5th, 2017, 02:26 PM   #13
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i run the 415 with the snap, screw the rivit link, dont get a cheap masterlink, it will break, get a good d.i.d masterlink with a snap retainer
I'm sorry, that is the worst advice ever regarding master links.

Please do not use a clip style master link. Especially for a 415 size chain.

Properly done rivet style master links are much stronger than the clip style links. Of course you have to follow the instructions from the DID website and do it right. And you want the exact specified master link that DID tells you to use. don't use anything else.
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Old September 5th, 2017, 02:52 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgold View Post
I'm sorry, that is the worst advice ever regarding master links.

Please do not use a clip style master link. Especially for a 415 size chain.

Properly done rivet style master links are much stronger than the clip style links. Of course you have to follow the instructions from the DID website and do it right. And you want the exact specified master link that DID tells you to use. don't use anything else.
Well.... it depends upon how much is "good enough". If "stronger" is better, then we should all be running 632 chains. BMX and velodrome riders can actually generate twice as much torque on their crank-spindle as a N250 can at the output-shaft in 1st gear (+250 lb*ft vs. 128). Those bikes typically use size 410 chains with clip-type master-links all the time.

Helps to use as large sprockets as possible to reduce chain's bend-angle as it wraps around front-sprocket. I have 18/59t combo for slightly lower-gearing than stock. I haven't had any problems with my 428 chain's clip-on master-link and the previous owner ran the same configuration; as have many others.

Main issue that's been identified is low-quality master-links that wear quickly. In which case, distance between pins will increase and may actually undo the clip by spreading. That's more of a materials and QC issue than design though.
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Old September 5th, 2017, 02:52 PM   #15
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Properly done rivet style master links are much stronger than the clip style links.
I can understand the argument that riveted links are less likely to come apart at a bad time, but I don't see how they are any stronger then the clip type. The only difference is the way the side plate is retained, not how strong the side plate is.
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Old September 5th, 2017, 03:24 PM   #16
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I can understand the argument that riveted links are less likely to come apart at a bad time, but I don't see how they are any stronger then the clip type. The only difference is the way the side plate is retained, not how strong the side plate is.
Agree.

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Old September 5th, 2017, 03:58 PM   #17
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Just use the clip style, I've never heard of anybody having a problem with the clip coming off if it was installed properly. Plus you can take the chain off really easily and soak it in cleaner/lube.

I run the 415 chain and have never had a problem with the master, neither has anyone else running the 415 at our local track.
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Old September 5th, 2017, 08:36 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by JacRyann View Post
Well.... it depends upon how much is "good enough". If "stronger" is better, then we should all be running 632 chains. BMX and velodrome riders can actually generate twice as much torque on their crank-spindle as a N250 can at the output-shaft in 1st gear (+250 lb*ft vs. 128). Those bikes typically use size 410 chains with clip-type master-links all the time.

Helps to use as large sprockets as possible to reduce chain's bend-angle as it wraps around front-sprocket. I have 18/59t combo for slightly lower-gearing than stock. I haven't had any problems with my 428 chain's clip-on master-link and the previous owner ran the same configuration; as have many others.

Main issue that's been identified is low-quality master-links that wear quickly. In which case, distance between pins will increase and may actually undo the clip by spreading. That's more of a materials and QC issue than design though.
That 415 chain is also moving a 300 plus pound motorcycle not to mention what engine braking does to the chain. If your comparison to the torque applied to a bicycle chain was an accurate one then it would mean that a 410 chain would work for a 300 Ninja. It will not.

Many people think that any 415 master link will work with any 415 chain, 520 master with any 520 chain, etc. They will not. At least not for long. No matter the chain size, the master link is always the weakest part of the chain. There is more to a master link than the clip or rivet simply holding the sideplate on. It is a matter of clearances and the strength of the link as a unit. There is a reason that rivet type master links are used by race teams. It's because they are stronger. And when you're talking about using a 415 chain that wasn't meant to be used on a 250 Ninja that little extra bit of strength can make the difference between winning and watching the race from the side of the track

Your mention of 428 chain really doesn't apply because it is much stronger than a 415 chain.

I've been through the use of clip type master links, I know how to install them, and I've always used the correct link, yet I've still had them come off of some of my racebikes. And that is even after safety wire and silicone. Not worth the risk of a DNF for me.
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Old September 5th, 2017, 09:31 PM   #19
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Quote:
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TLDR: What tool is used to cut, press, and rivet a 415 chain?
A pin-type tool can do all of that. Pushing out a pin is easy, you've done that.

Then pressing the side-plate back on can be done by pushing on the middle of a plate.

Finally, expanding rivet master-link can be done by having solid backing-plate on tool to keep from pushing pin out back side.

Here's a video showing how:

Link to original page on YouTube.

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Old September 19th, 2017, 07:18 PM   #20
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lol, dude lost some cred that a OEM chain only lasts 10k miles. I've got 30K on my OEM chain on my fz6. (it's probably due, but it's not in bad shape and last season the mechanic looked at it when I suggested a replacement and said it was fine.)

The holes in that rivet chain look frightening to me.
He also failed to say hook the master link to the old chain so that you thread the new chain on as the old chain comes off.
It's been years since I've done one of these.
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Old September 19th, 2017, 07:51 PM   #21
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in the words of Andy Palmer, "stop using those damn bicycle chains." He was helping me weld my exhaust back together after a crash during race weekend, when someone came over to ask for help with his chain. Coming from a guy with that much experience, I will refrain from ever using anything other then a 520.
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Old September 19th, 2017, 08:56 PM   #22
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in the words of Andy Palmer, "stop using those damn bicycle chains." He was helping me weld my exhaust back together after a crash during race weekend, when someone came over to ask for help with his chain. Coming from a guy with that much experience, I will refrain from ever using anything other then a 520.
On another blog that I used to participate in it became common place to replace the 530 chain on their Honda 500 singles with 520. I stayed with the 530. I'm also staying with the 520 on my Ninja. The difference in un-sprung weight of a 415 vs. 420 is negligible but I believe the durability/longevity of a 520 is significant.

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Old September 20th, 2017, 06:19 AM   #23
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in the words of Andy Palmer, "stop using those damn bicycle chains." He was helping me weld my exhaust back together after a crash during race weekend, when someone came over to ask for help with his chain. Coming from a guy with that much experience, I will refrain from ever using anything other then a 520.
This ^^^

You can actually find high quality 520 chains that are lighter than some 420 series chains. Some non-o ring motocross chains and the chains designed for 250gp bikes come to mind. I researched the weights and bought a DID ERT2 chain last year and it had noticeably less drag than a typical o ring chain. It did require more maintenance though. Plus the added benefit of not having to buy special sprockets.

This is coming from someone who has been almost fanatical about saving weight off a racebike. Currently my Ninjette weighs about 285lb.
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Old September 24th, 2017, 08:19 AM   #24
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Currently my Ninjette weighs about 285lb.
Details on getting down to 285?
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Old September 25th, 2017, 06:49 AM   #25
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Details on getting down to 285?
Most of it is cutting extraneous frame tabs off, cutting off the passenger part of the subframe. Race wiring harness, cut the dash apart and only using the tach, lightweight lithium-iron battery, removing the keyswitch and wiring directly to the killswitch, removing the mounting points for the keyswitch from the upper triple, oh, and the bracket for the seat: It's pretty heavy, so I removed it, cut off the ends that the seat hooks into, and bolted them back on. Aluminum captive spacers for the wheels, gas tank filler neck removed for dry break valve, aluminum bars, aluminum dogbones, airbox removed, rear inner fender removed and replaced with .020 carbon fiber sheet, Area P full exhaust, fork "brace" removed, rear brake reservoir removed, non-functional bodywork panels removed, exhaust mount bracket lightened (only the metal around the mount holes remains. I not only cut off the kickstand bracket, I also ground down much of the quarter inch thick area where it was welded on the frame.

Even the multi-adjustable rearsets didn't survive the diet unscathed. I located them where I wanted them and then made new locating subplates without all the extra holes and material.

Basically, much of the weight savings will come from buying yourself a six pack of cutoff wheels and going to town!

I've done all this while keeping reliability as the most important objective. We are doing 3 hour endurance races and can't really afford to spend much time in the pits fixing stuff and we've been pretty reliable. The only real mechanical issue we've had so far this year was due to me using bad gas. There are some things I would do if I were sprint racing the bike to make it even lighter (like removing the starter), going total-loss with the ignition and going to a smaller and lighter gas tank.
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Old September 25th, 2017, 10:46 AM   #26
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I not only cut off the kickstand bracket, I also ground down much of the quarter inch thick area where it was welded on the frame.
Hey, good job on weight-reduction. I initially removed kickstand. Then cut off bracket, then noticed there's A LOT of metal behind it that's not needed. Starting cutting that off, and cut some more... and some more... There must've been at least 1.5-lbs of extra metal that can be removed behind kickstand bracket!
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Old October 3rd, 2017, 08:30 AM   #27
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I forgot to update but I bought a 415 bicycle chain tool on amazon for $15 and cut the chain. The chain came with a clip link so that's what I used. Rode the bike around and did my first track day session on the chain. Definitely need to keep an eye on the stretch and wear along the chain. I will probably go back to a 520 chain when I need to change the chain. Its more peace of mind and less worrying about "Did I check the chain slack? or did I lube the chain?". Plus I just started doing track days and plan to go race only so until I get fast enough to qualify for MA junior cup I don't think I need to worry too much about the reciprocating mass difference between chains.
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Old October 12th, 2017, 12:50 PM   #28
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That 415 chain is also moving a 300 plus pound motorcycle not to mention what engine braking does to the chain. If your comparison to the torque applied to a bicycle chain was an accurate one then it would mean that a 410 chain would work for a 300 Ninja. It will not.

Many people think that any 415 master link will work with any 415 chain, 520 master with any 520 chain, etc. They will not. At least not for long. No matter the chain size, the master link is always the weakest part of the chain. There is more to a master link than the clip or rivet simply holding the sideplate on. It is a matter of clearances and the strength of the link as a unit. There is a reason that rivet type master links are used by race teams. It's because they are stronger. And when you're talking about using a 415 chain that wasn't meant to be used on a 250 Ninja that little extra bit of strength can make the difference between winning and watching the race from the side of the track

Your mention of 428 chain really doesn't apply because it is much stronger than a 415 chain.

I've been through the use of clip type master links, I know how to install them, and I've always used the correct link, yet I've still had them come off of some of my racebikes. And that is even after safety wire and silicone. Not worth the risk of a DNF for me.
Something I'd like to add on this, working in the powersports industry for awhile I've learned masterlinks don't like to mix and match brands. I've found different brands have their own measurements for their chains. Sometimes it works but a lot of the time the pin will be too big or too small, for example trying to put a RK masterlink on a DID chain, it's possible the pin will be too big to press through, also possible it slides in and wiggles around with room to play.
So when it comes to buying masterlinks, I go for the same brand AND the link made for that chain. If it's a DID MVXZ chain, I would run the MVXZ link as well.
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