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Old December 13th, 2017, 06:26 PM   #1
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Ninja 250 rusEFI conversion

What's up. While a bitterly cold winter awaits the northeast, I am squirreling away parts needed for an EFI conversion.

This conversion for the 250 is using a mix of Ninja 300 and other motorcycle parts from ebay. Low cost OEM goodness, yum.

Also, I'm repping a project I would like to contribute further to by going forward with this idea: rusEFI, an open source/open hardware ecu project.

https://rusefi.com//forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1302

This project will mostly take after @greg737's efforts in converting his pregen to a Microsquirt controlled unit. The price is right on the LT-R 450 fueling system, I plan to emulate that, albeit with an identical Honda fuel pump. Although I'm going a little further outside of the comfort zone by considering ignition timing control and a more complicated ECU package.

I hope to gather some additional key info from Ninjette members which may be required for the success of this endeavor.

I wouldn't even be able to get a parts list with such ease without other Ninjette members having already done the research, huge thumbs up to pioneers such as greg, cuong, and Garth285, and many others. Even the pictures from @NevadaWolf's recent stator replacement helped a bit.
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Old December 13th, 2017, 06:38 PM   #2
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Good luck!!!

For FPR, you can use Bosch 3-bar FPR for Toyota Corolla '93-97. Tiny unit about the size of your thumb and can fit on any fuel-rail you make.

What are you doing for crank-positioning and speed? There's very little info I could determine about VR/Hall-sensor input and compatible trigger-wheel patterns on that site.
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Old December 13th, 2017, 06:45 PM   #3
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Good luck!!!

For FPR, you can use Bosch 3-bar FPR for Toyota Corolla '93-97. Tiny unit about the size of your thumb and can fit on any fuel-rail you make.

What are you doing for crank-positioning and speed? There's very little info I could determine about VR/Hall-sensor input and compatible trigger-wheel patterns on that site.
The automotive FPR is definitely a consideration for future folks who want to convert to EFI. The same 3 bar FPR is used in a bunch of the 90s mid-size sedans with V6 engines (think 90s accords, camrys, corollas, es250/300s). I bought an ATV FPR because it was used in a previous EFI conversion, it worked, and the ATV part was at a lower cost.

That may be because much of the knowledge is in the forum in Russian. But the system is flexible enough that pretty much any trigger wheel pattern with decent resolution will work. I plan to use the rotor pickup signal from the motorbike's alternator for engine speed. I'm currently shopping for a Ninja 300 flywheel/rotor because the 250's flywheel has only 4 pickups, whereas the 300 part has a billion.
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Old December 13th, 2017, 06:50 PM   #4
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This project will mostly take after @greg737's efforts in converting his pregen to a Microsquirt controlled unit. The price is right on the LT-R 450 fueling system, I plan to emulate that, albeit with an identical Honda fuel pump. Although I'm going a little further outside of the comfort zone by considering ignition timing control and a more complicated ECU package.
A fuel injection project is never over. My EX250 FI project bike continues to serve well, but there's always something I can improve.

This winter I'm digging back into my now-10-year-old 2005 EX250 fuel injection project bike. My younger daughter wants to learn to ride motorcycles this spring and that's my excuse to bring the EX250 up to a higher standard.

I'll be implementing ignition control (24-2 alternator flywheel from an EX300), re-working some of the fuel system, re-doing a lot of the wiring (I was learning as I worked on some of it), replacing the MicroSquirt V2 with a new MicroSquirt V3, and some other bits and pieces of work/improvement.

I've been using the Honda TRX Rancher fuel pump in both the EX250 and my Suzuki GSF400 Bandit fuel injection projects for a number of years now. In my opinion it's better than the LT-R450 fuel pump, and pretty cheap to buy new.

Good luck with your project!
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Old December 13th, 2017, 06:52 PM   #5
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It's very good to know that my parts acquisition is on the same path. Thanks for the heads up on the flywheel pattern.
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Old December 13th, 2017, 07:05 PM   #6
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An FI "farkle" that I'm planning to add to the EX250 is an Arduino Nano controlled Manifold Absolute Pressure sensor array (2 MAP sensors for the EX250).

This unit will read simultaneously from a dedicated MAP sensor on each of the two cylinders and it will discriminate for the lower signal (i.e. more vacuum) and then forward only the lower signal (on a microsecond-by-microsecond basis) onward to the MicroSquirt's MAP sensor input line (pin 24 if I remember correctly). Between the Arduino Nano and the MicroSquirt will be a digital to analog converter (DAC) to change the digital Nano output into something the MicroSquirt can use.

This will make the EX250's MAP signal information much more useful to the MicroSquirt. But even with that improvement I'm expecting to run the engine in ITB mode (which is Speed Density when below a certain yet-to-be-decided MAP kPa value, and switching to Alpha N above that value).

Also, the Nano will be monitoring the Cylinder #1 MAP vacuum signal for each time it goes below a pre-specified minimum value. This information will be used to generate the equivalent of a Hall-type Camshaft speed sensor. This will allow the MicroSquirt to run the engine in full sequential mode.
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Old December 13th, 2017, 07:20 PM   #7
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Well, you don't need a lot of trigger-teeth with modern hardware. It can calculate time between triggers very easily without overloading CPU like on older systems. Some of the older Motronics had 132-tooth triggers!!! Looks like the Nissan SR20VE matches closest to the 250 trigger pattern.



Might just want to try that to start. And using wasted-spark will take care of the 180-degree firing-order and avoid needing a cam-sensor.
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Old December 13th, 2017, 07:26 PM   #8
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Well, you don't need a lot of triggers with modern hardware. It can calculate time between triggers very easily without overloading CPU like on older systems. Looks like the Nissan SR20VE matches closest to the 250 trigger pattern.



Might just want to try that to start. And using wasted-spark will take care of the 180-degree firing-order and avoid needing a cam-sensor.
With a MicroSquirt ECU running MS2/Extra firmware it's just best to use a trigger pattern that is supported by the firmware.

I don't know if the current MS2/Extra firmware includes support for the Nissan SR20VE ignition system, but I do know for sure that the firmware does support the use of a standard 24-2 trigger wheel. And, besides, that "wheel" (which on the EX250 is simply the alternator rotor) is a direct-swap-in to the EX250 from an EX300. It all doesn't get any simpler than that.
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Old December 13th, 2017, 07:29 PM   #9
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Yeah, I'll probably use EX300 trigger when I Microsquirt my 250 this winter. However he's using rusEFI, which looks like it'll supports EX250 trigger out of the box.
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Old December 13th, 2017, 07:41 PM   #10
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rusEFI should be able to support the stock flywheel pattern, but I'd like to also delve into pushing the ignition events and managing the cylinders individually. Having a bunch of trigger teeth wouldn't hurt.

Also I have all this processing power to play with, so I might as well just bling out with a high-ish resolution wheel on a high revving engine.
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Old December 13th, 2017, 10:29 PM   #11
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I'm looking into staged injectors (2x per cylinder). When you've got boost and lots of flow with high-revving engines, idle really sucks due to minimum pulse-width on the big injectors needed for that top-end. Having two smaller injectors with only one running at low-end really helps idle and partial-throttle response. Then bring on the 2nd one at high-RPM and positive pressure.
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Old January 31st, 2018, 08:38 AM   #12
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I have a couple 300 flywheels if any one wants them for the cost of shipping
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Old January 31st, 2018, 10:31 AM   #13
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I have a couple 300 flywheels if any one wants them for the cost of shipping
I’ll take those! PM incoming!
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Old February 9th, 2018, 05:00 PM   #14
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Is rusefi similar to speeduino?
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Old February 10th, 2018, 04:19 AM   #15
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Is rusefi similar to speeduino?
Each project has a different hardware/software base, but both of them have crossed at some points, even hybridizing a bit recently. Both being based on ARM architecture helps in that regard.
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Old February 12th, 2018, 03:36 PM   #16
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An FI "farkle" that I'm planning to add to the EX250 is an Arduino Nano controlled Manifold Absolute Pressure sensor array (2 MAP sensors for the EX250).

This unit will read simultaneously from a dedicated MAP sensor on each of the two cylinders and it will discriminate for the lower signal (i.e. more vacuum) and then forward only the lower signal (on a microsecond-by-microsecond basis) onward to the MicroSquirt's MAP sensor input line (pin 24 if I remember correctly). Between the Arduino Nano and the MicroSquirt will be a digital to analog converter (DAC) to change the digital Nano output into something the MicroSquirt can use.

This will make the EX250's MAP signal information much more useful to the MicroSquirt. But even with that improvement I'm expecting to run the engine in ITB mode (which is Speed Density when below a certain yet-to-be-decided MAP kPa value, and switching to Alpha N above that value).

Also, the Nano will be monitoring the Cylinder #1 MAP vacuum signal for each time it goes below a pre-specified minimum value. This information will be used to generate the equivalent of a Hall-type Camshaft speed sensor. This will allow the MicroSquirt to run the engine in full sequential mode.
Greg,

Could you post a link to the Arduino Nano controlled Manifold Absolute Pressure sensor array as I also am trying to do an efi conversion.
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Old February 13th, 2018, 11:47 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greg737 View Post
An FI "farkle" that I'm planning to add to the EX250 is an Arduino Nano controlled Manifold Absolute Pressure sensor array (2 MAP sensors for the EX250).

This unit will read simultaneously from a dedicated MAP sensor on each of the two cylinders and it will discriminate for the lower signal (i.e. more vacuum) and then forward only the lower signal (on a microsecond-by-microsecond basis) onward to the MicroSquirt's MAP sensor input line (pin 24 if I remember correctly). Between the Arduino Nano and the MicroSquirt will be a digital to analog converter (DAC) to change the digital Nano output into something the MicroSquirt can use.

This will make the EX250's MAP signal information much more useful to the MicroSquirt. But even with that improvement I'm expecting to run the engine in ITB mode (which is Speed Density when below a certain yet-to-be-decided MAP kPa value, and switching to Alpha N above that value).

Also, the Nano will be monitoring the Cylinder #1 MAP vacuum signal for each time it goes below a pre-specified minimum value. This information will be used to generate the equivalent of a Hall-type Camshaft speed sensor. This will allow the MicroSquirt to run the engine in full sequential mode.
Could you post a link for the MAP sensor array project?
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Old February 14th, 2018, 06:55 AM   #18
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Could you post a link for the MAP sensor array project?
Yes, I'm going to be working on the unit later this week (I hope), still waiting on one part (the plastic project box) to come in the mail. It should arrive soon and then I'll be documenting (including pictures) the assembly and programming of the unit.

This is just part of getting my FI project EX250 refreshed/upgraded before the spring-summer riding season so my daughter can use the bike.
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Old February 14th, 2018, 11:00 AM   #19
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Cool, Thank you.
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Old February 18th, 2018, 09:11 AM   #20
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Cool, Thank you.
(Hope that posting in this thread doesn't piss anybody off. At least it's FI related.)

As promised, here's a few pictures and some documentation of progress on the small project to create a "multi-MAP" for my FI 2005 EX250.

Be Advised: I still use Photobucket, and it seems they (Photobucket) are really thrashing around trying to find a place in this world, so be prepared for the possibility of some weird pop-ups and other presentation oddities/advertising when you're viewing my photos.

Once again, the goal of this small project:
Quote:
An FI "farkle" that I'm planning to add to the EX250 is an Arduino Nano controlled Manifold Absolute Pressure sensor array (2 MAP sensors for the EX250).

This unit will read simultaneously from a dedicated MAP sensor on each of the two cylinders and it will discriminate for the lower signal (i.e. more vacuum) and then forward only the lower signal (on a microsecond-by-microsecond basis) onward to the MicroSquirt's MAP sensor input line (pin 24 if I remember correctly). Between the Arduino Nano and the MicroSquirt will be a digital to analog converter (DAC) to change the digital Nano output into something the MicroSquirt can use.

This will make the EX250's MAP signal information much more useful to the MicroSquirt. But even with that improvement I'm expecting to run the engine in ITB mode (which is Speed Density when below a certain yet-to-be-decided MAP kPa value, and switching to Alpha N above that value).

Also, the Nano will be monitoring the Cylinder #1 MAP vacuum signal for each time it goes below a pre-specified minimum value. This information will be used to generate the equivalent of a Hall-type Camshaft speed sensor. This will allow the MicroSquirt to run the engine in full sequential mode.
Here's a picture of the items:


Here's a picture of the wiring connections I needed to make (there's one error on this picture, the "Vout from MAP #1 to Nano A2" should read "Vout from MAP #1 to A0"):


Here's a pic of the Nano's input/output set up:


I use hard, single core wire for all of the connections between the circuit boards (back and forth between the Nano and the DAC). The circuit boards and the MAP sensors will be weather-proofed inside an ABS plastic project box.

I use automotive-grade stranded wire to take inputs to and from the project box. The transitions to-and-from the project (stranded wire to single core wire) occur on the small piece of Radio Shack circuit board.










The outputs/inputs that you see running to the multi-plug are:

Red/with White stripe = 12 volt key-switched power from the bike's harness
Black/with White stripe = Ground (to main ECU grounding point)
Yellow = 5 volt square wave "camshaft" output signal to ECU input pin
Green/with Red stripe = Output to ECU MAP sensor input pin
Orange/with Green stripe = 5 volt "sensor power" from ECU
Grey = Ground line to ECU sensor ground point

You can see the attachment port (barb) on each of the two MAP sensors. There will be a rubber vacuum hose attached to each of these ports, running to the vacuum ports on the throttle body.
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Old February 18th, 2018, 05:52 PM   #21
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Man that looks above my pay grade
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Old February 19th, 2018, 02:31 PM   #22
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Heh, heh... that's pretty awesome!!! Good job!
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Old February 20th, 2018, 04:20 PM   #23
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Quick question - If I already have an MPX4250AP could I just buy one more and run two of those?
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Old February 20th, 2018, 04:34 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Ceeloo Yello View Post
Quick question - If I already have an MPX4250AP could I just buy one more and run two of those?
How do you blend their different signals?

I think I’m going my to build a plenum with single throttle-body and use MAF. That should even out the two cylinder’s pulses.
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Old February 20th, 2018, 05:07 PM   #25
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How do you blend their different signals?

I think I’m going my to build a plenum with single throttle-body and use MAF. That should even out the two cylinder’s pulses.
I would just use them in the circuit that Greg737 posted that way I don't have to buy 2 more map sensors.
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Old February 20th, 2018, 09:25 PM   #26
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Ah good, sorry I thought you were going to use 2nd MAP with EFI system directly.
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Old February 21st, 2018, 09:26 AM   #27
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Quick question - If I already have an MPX4250AP could I just buy one more and run two of those?
Yes, you could choose to use a pair of MPX4250ap sensors in this Nano project. The only change would be in the ECU definition of sensors for calibration purposes (where you tell the ECU what type of MAP sensor you're using). The Nano project would be executed the same regardless of the sensors used.

The MPX4250 sensor is a common choice for both normally aspirated and turbocharged engines (as it can accurately report boost up to about 22 or 23 psi). I prefer to use the MPX4115 which is for naturally aspirated engines only, but that's just a personal choice not something that delivers more accuracy or anything like that.

Also, I should let you know that this Nano project isn't all my doing, not by a long way. The do-it-yourself fuel injection hobby is a very collaborative thing. I've taken this project from a very creative, knowledgeable guy in Germany, and he's giving me a lot of help and guidance in executing it. In my opinion that's a large part of what makes doing this so much fun.
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Old February 22nd, 2018, 01:15 PM   #28
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Hey Flying:

Any progress on your efi conversion?
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Old February 23rd, 2018, 10:40 AM   #29
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Hey Flying:

Any progress on your efi conversion?
Not as of late. I've obtained a Ninja 300 flywheel and that is it. Currently focused clearing out work/life related tasks prior to me pulling the trigger on additional components and spending the time on the bike.

The next components to purchase are a new motorcycle stand and a Honda Rancher fuel pump, and even later down the line is stuff like coil-over-plugs, an Area P exhaust (which can be specified with an O2 bung, cool!), etc etc.
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Old February 23rd, 2018, 05:00 PM   #30
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Not as of late. I've obtained a Ninja 300 flywheel and that is it. Currently focused clearing out work/life related tasks prior to me pulling the trigger on additional components and spending the time on the bike.

The next components to purchase are a new motorcycle stand and a Honda Rancher fuel pump, and even later down the line is stuff like coil-over-plugs, an Area P exhaust (which can be specified with an O2 bung, cool!), etc etc.
Cool.

Last week I ordered some Honda CBR600 COPs (Denso "shorties"), currently waiting for them to come in. I'll be wiring them up to a DIYAutotune Quadspark ignition module box (of course I'll only be using two of its four channels because the EX250 is only a two cylinder engine). The Microsquirt V3 only has "Logic Level" ignition outputs, which means they cannot be used to drive a coil directly so you have to use an ignition module. I know it sounds like a complex situation but it's judged to be a good solution, especially when you look at the real need to keep the electrical noise and interference isolated from the ECU as much as possible.

I have an Area P exhaust also, the long-ago-discontinued Pre-Gen model (so rare now it's Pre-Gen Unobtainium), it's such a great product (quality, performance, sound), without a doubt the best exhaust an EX250 could have. I cut and mounted an exhaust bung to it, the bung is located so the O2 sensor body takes up the narrow slot of space between the engine's oil pan and the linkage for the rear shock (I was very proud of how it turned out, perfectly measured and welded in).

Sometime during late February/early March I'll be installing an EX300 alternator rotor on my EX250. Because of this I've also ordered in a used stator cover off of Ebay and a couple of extra stator cover gaskets from a parts provider.

When I did the FI conversion on my Suzuki GSF400 (which included ignition control, which my original EX250 conversion did not) I discovered that I needed to be able to cut a viewing port into the engine cover on the left-hand side of the engine so I could set the initial basic timing angle (with my eyes and with a timing strobe light connected up to cylinder #1 spark plug). So I had to go to Ebay and purchase a used stator cover that I could cut (i.e. ruin). With this cut up cover installed on the bike I could refill the engine oil and run the engine while still being able to see inside where the engine timing was lining up, using the timing strobe light (yeah, the timing wheel still threw out a bit of oil during the run but I was able to get the job done).

The reason you have to do this is that the aftermarket ECU (the Microsquirt V3 in my project) doesn't automatically know where the Variable Reluctance Sensor ("VR sensor") is mounted within the engine's timing case, so the angular difference in degrees (out of 360 total) between the physical mounting place of the VR sensor and the exact "0" engine timing mark (Top-Dead-Center for cylinder #1) has to be determined visually and confirmed/adjusted with timing light testing.

The difference between the EX250 engine and the GSF400 engine is that the Rotor/Stator is on the opposite side of the engine on the GSF400, but the need to be able to see into the timing will probably be the same.

Here are a few pics of what it looked like when I was doing this work on the GSF400:








Last futzed with by greg737; February 24th, 2018 at 09:03 AM.
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