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Old February 21st, 2016, 06:28 PM   #1
sabre al
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valve adjustment

hi folks sabre-al here. just thinking as a machinist, why not lap the required amount from each valve shim instead of buying more. two parallels and some valve grinding compound should not take long to remove .005 - .007" from your existing shims as needed. chime in with your thoughts.
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Old February 21st, 2016, 06:32 PM   #2
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Old February 21st, 2016, 06:38 PM   #3
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The only downside is that if you take too much, you're gonna need a shim anyway.

The upside is that if you're very careful, this can be done and you can save 10 bucks in shims.

IMO, doing this is not worth the 10 bucks in shims I can get from the local shop.
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Old February 21st, 2016, 06:46 PM   #4
sabre al
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valve adjustment

yes, if shims can be obtained for just ten bucks or so, it wouldnt be worth fooling with.
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Old February 21st, 2016, 06:54 PM   #5
sabre al
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valve adjustment

wouldnt it be nice if the valve shims were the same hardness as the valves and seats so they would wear approximately the same, increasing adjustment intervals.
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Old February 21st, 2016, 06:55 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sabre al View Post
yes, if shims can be obtained for just ten bucks or so, it wouldnt be worth fooling with.
If you have a local repair shop, they will most likely have them for a couple bucks each.

Don't order an entire 80 dollar shim kit. The shop I have local, last time I went, just exchanged the three shims I needed for the ones I had at no cost.
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Old February 21st, 2016, 07:48 PM   #7
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My "shims-ing" will only be done by the mechanic.

I just sit and watch.

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Old February 23rd, 2016, 05:18 PM   #8
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Old February 24th, 2016, 09:28 AM   #9
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Old February 25th, 2016, 10:25 AM   #10
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A lot of people and places say the shims are case hardened, so removing material will remove the outer most and hardest portion, resulting in excessive wear later on.


But I did what you said, I have a surface grinder at my job and brought each shim in and took off the required amount (.002-.003 in most cases). No issues with my or my friends bike as of yet.

I have purchased the shim kit for the future only because I wanted to be able to do the valve job without having to wait a day or so to bring parts to work and grind them.
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Old February 25th, 2016, 10:42 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sabre al View Post
wouldnt it be nice if the valve shims were the same hardness as the valves and seats so they would wear approximately the same, increasing adjustment intervals.
Welcome, Albert! Lots of interesting reading, sage advice, and entertaining people on this forum.

The shims don't wear at all. It's the valve/seat interface that slowly wears away due to the hot temperatures and thousands of opening/closing cycles every minute.

During operation, the shims don't even make contact with the camshaft lobes (or rocker mechanisms, depending on engine configuration): there's a oil film between the two metal surfaces.
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Old March 1st, 2016, 06:03 AM   #12
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Old March 1st, 2016, 07:05 AM   #13
sabre al
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valve adjustment

i would think case hardening would penetrate deeper than a couple thousandths, making that a non issue , if you remove half off each side.you know ,grind and or lap .002" off each side to remove .004" total would reduce the possibility of breaking through the hardened surface.
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Old March 1st, 2016, 08:31 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sabre al View Post
i would think case hardening would penetrate deeper than a couple thousandths, making that a non issue , if you remove half off each side.you know ,grind and or lap .002" off each side to remove .004" total would reduce the possibility of breaking through the hardened surface.

I don't know a whole lot about the hardening process, but here's how I have seen it done for the 29.5 mm shims both my Suzuki's use. The shims are stamped at the factory with the thickness, which, if that side is installed down that side is basically stationary other than spinning in the bucket. Which is a lot of movement but not nearly the action the top side is getting from the cam.

When you grind a shim (my brother did a few with a mill a while back) just grind the side where the thickness was marked, so you don't have the wrong thickness. Then install that ground side down. That way if it's lost any hardening from the grinding, it will be on the side that doesn't get beaten on thousands of times a minute.

Oh, and I don't know if it's an issue for the Kawi's, but I remember receiving an adamant warning to make sure the shims are NEVER exposed to magnetism. Apparently a magnetized shim could stick to the cam and lift out of the bucket in a perfect storm and wreak a lot of havoc in your motor. Fishing those suckers out of the head I could see the temptation to grab it with a magnetic screwdriver. I used these huge 6-inch long tweezers and they worked without a whole lot of cursing.
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Old March 1st, 2016, 08:32 AM   #15
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Old March 1st, 2016, 08:40 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kxpower? View Post
I don't know a whole lot about the hardening process, but here's how I have seen it done for the 29.5 mm shims both my Suzuki's use. The shims are stamped at the factory with the thickness, which, if that side is installed down that side is basically stationary other than spinning in the bucket. Which is a lot of movement but not nearly the action the top side is getting from the cam.

When you grind a shim (my brother did a few with a mill a while back) just grind the side where the thickness was marked, so you don't have the wrong thickness. Then install that ground side down. That way if it's lost any hardening from the grinding, it will be on the side that doesn't get beaten on thousands of times a minute.

Oh, and I don't know if it's an issue for the Kawi's, but I remember receiving an adamant warning to make sure the shims are NEVER exposed to magnetism. Apparently a magnetized shim could stick to the cam and lift out of the bucket in a perfect storm and wreak a lot of havoc in your motor. Fishing those suckers out of the head I could see the temptation to grab it with a magnetic screwdriver. I used these huge 6-inch long tweezers and they worked without a whole lot of cursing.
This doesn't really apply to Ninja's and most (!) motorcycles as they are shim-under-bucket (yes, I know a few are shim over bucket). IE, the bucket is what makes contact with the cam, and the shim is a tiny little thing riding on top of the valve stem.
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Old March 1st, 2016, 08:44 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RacinNinja View Post
This doesn't really apply to Ninja's and most (!) motorcycles as they are shim-under-bucket (yes, I know a few are shim over bucket). IE, the bucket is what makes contact with the cam, and the shim is a tiny little thing riding on top of the valve stem.
Oh, whoops lol the only direct-actuate valve covers I've ever had off were the Suzukis

I assumed that was the norm for shim setups.

So anyways ignore all I've said here lol.
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Old March 1st, 2016, 09:40 AM   #18
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Oh, whoops lol the only direct-actuate valve covers I've ever had off were the Suzukis

I assumed that was the norm for shim setups.

So anyways ignore all I've said here lol.
Well, it's still good info in regards to engines. Just not most motorcycles. It was a "thing" in the 80's and early 90's, then everything went shim under. Yamaha used them on the 1100 Maxim and a few other bikes too.

A lot of Japanese car and truck engines used them. I don't buy in to the magnetism thing unless you really juiced them with a rare earth magnet or something. A small magnet on the end of a wand won't do any harm.
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Old March 23rd, 2016, 10:30 PM   #19
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I've seen shim grinding videos on YT done somewhere in Asia.
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Old June 13th, 2016, 09:37 PM   #20
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Do not think I will worry about valve shims or 600 mile maintenance. I have road raced and thrashed bikes for years and checked clearances and have found very minimal clearance issues. I do all maintenance myself but I have a lot of experience. If you have little or no experience with motorcycle maintenance I would highly recommend having an experienced mechanic service your bike. Maintenance issues can cause serious safety concerns.
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Old June 14th, 2016, 05:31 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by sabre al View Post
hi folks sabre-al here. just thinking as a machinist, why not lap the required amount from each valve shim instead of buying more. two parallels and some valve grinding compound should not take long to remove .005 - .007" from your existing shims as needed. chime in with your thoughts.
Just speaking as a non-machinist.

I wouldn't go through the trouble of lapping the shims because I don't have the equipment to do so. For the small price of the shims it isn't worth the hassle.

And Welcome to the Ninjettes.
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Old July 2nd, 2016, 11:30 AM   #22
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Do not think I will worry about valve shims or 600 mile maintenance. I have road raced and thrashed bikes for years and checked clearances and have found very minimal clearance issues. I do all maintenance myself but I have a lot of experience. If you have little or no experience with motorcycle maintenance I would highly recommend having an experienced mechanic service your bike. Maintenance issues can cause serious safety concerns.
Valves aren't needed to be checked on the 300 until the 7500 mile service IIRC. This is different than the pre-gen bikes. The 600 mile maintenance isn't much, and one can certainly perform it themselves if they choose; but that doesn't mean the items in it are good to ignore completely.
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