Loud Pipes Save Lives?

[Jerry]

I drive through about 25 miles of National Park every day, and very often after dark. There are tons of animals...deer, skunks, bobcats, foxes, bears, owls, even the very occasional puma.

When I'm driving in the cage, I see three or four animals nightly, mostly foxes and bobcats, then deer, then bears.

On the bike, I almost never see foxes and bobcats, certainly fewer deer. My thinking is that these animals can hear the bike coming for miles, it has that angry bumblebee sound, and they find cover.

So maybe the loudness of the bike vs. car does clear the road a bit. No doubt the smarter predators (foxes, bobcats) make themselves scarce.

As for deer, it may clear some, but it also makes some a bit panicky as I pass, so call that a wash.

Bears, skunks, they don't care. Bears fear nothing, and skunks rely on that 'up close and personal' defense. They seem oblivious.

And kkim, I know you know I know we know that this topic ALWAYS invokes opinionated discussion...

As for me, I'd still love a silent bike, and look forward to the day when electric motorcycles are the norm.

[kkim]

Yes, I know you know I know we know, but by all means, discussion is always welcomed on any subject on this forum. Just be sure to keep your replies and opinions courteous and I'm sure we'll get out of any discussion alive and still be able to be friends, too.

I've learned a long time ago changing someone's set opinion is tough enough to do in person, let alone be it over the internet.

My hope with this thread was to help educate those new to the sport of the unseen impacts their choice of having an (obnoxiously) loud pipe and their actions can make a difference in their riding future and the riding future of their children.

[min nin]

Hi everyone.

I live in southwest florida. This part of the state is full of old people, and their parents.

When you get old, the first one of your senses to fail is your HEARING.

I ride like i'm invisable. Maybe that will help.

Min nin

[Jerry]

If more loud pipe people wore hi-vis clothing, there would be more validity to the "Loud Pipe Save Lives" theory. My feeling is, if you are wearing a novelty helmet, leather vest, and jeans, you aren't really all that interested in being noticed, except for turning heads of pedestrians.

I mean if loud pipes were a part of a comprehensive effort to be more visible/audible to the caging public, I could maybe buy into it. It just doesn't seem to be the case.

[drumm3r9]

Kkim I couldn't agree with you more. I used to really be into moto-x and saw alot of my spots go down the tube for noise complaints etc etc.......when I put the aftermarket exhaust on my Ninja I knew I would be contributing to the problem.....however, I realize this and in residential neighborhoods or when driving late at night I keep the bike under 6k. This is quiet enough as to not disturb most people. On the highway, obviously you have to keep rmps alot higher but hopefully others are more concentrated to the road other than the sound of your exhaust... just have some mannors when you ride the thing in town. You don't wanna end up being known as one of the squids who likes to tout their stuff around local neighborhoods being obnoxious on their gsx 1000.

[Blackwidow]

Originally Posted by kkim

My hope with this thread was to help educate those new to the sport of the unseen impacts their choice of having an (obnoxiously) loud pipe and their actions can make a difference in their riding future and the riding future of their children.

Job well done by you and all other too. I wanted a loud exhaust but seems the cost of a new exhaust probably won't do me much good except annoy my neighbors as i'm pulling the bike out of the parking spot. ya no thanks!

[adri99an]

Are you sure you don't want one--they sound sooooo pretty and they sort of save lives.....but you must have on your lucky underwear.....

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=47349

[tapdiggy]

I had a standard core Area P on my Ninja. It was loud. Sooo loud. I never felt more safe because of it and the drone while cruising wore on my nerves. My XT's stock can is plenty loud at the top of the revs for me to enjoy it for a couple seconds before I upshift. And just like everything about the moto-lifestyle, personal enjoyment trumps all the high dB exhausts, chrome and CF bits, and wacky gear folks get for the 'look at me' factor. But what do I know, I think Hi-Viz is neato and it doesn't get more 'look at me' than that.

[Cuongism]

So I have an example from 10 minutes ago where the driver is either deaf or blind (or both). I have a yoshi slip-on (so louder than stock) and was at 8k rpm so it's definitely hearable from a good block away. I'm about to turn right and had my blinker on about 100 yards away (moot point anyway as you'll see). There's a girl parked about 5 ft from the corner and decides to pull out right when I'm NEXT to her. I quickly swerved left to avoid her front end, swerve right because I wanted to make my turn , but had to make the right turn wide since she was completely blocking my entry to the street and then swerve right and left again to avoid another car since I was in the oncoming lane.
She had her window down, didn't hear any music and she didn't have her blinkers on so I'm just confused since I was literally right next to her (as in if she turned to look left, my helmet would have been two feet away from her face).
There was a LEO right in front of me too who either didn't see it or didn't care since he didn't stop. Also, I somehow did this all one-handed which I guess made it even scarier, but I'm unhurt and I didn't scrape anything as I was swerving so all is good. Does CA have a law where you can't park a certain distance from intersections?? NY and MA did (I believe 15-20ft).
/rant
edit: also, my helmet is 70% white and my jacket is half white (sleeves all white) so I'm also hi-vis). Maybe we should make a poll of loud colors saving lives...

[Snake]

Bump

[headshrink]

Overall, no.

Has there ever been an exception to that, I'm sure.

I know I flinched really bad the other night when I was startled by a "sleeper" car that snuck into my blind-spot, and announced it's presence with it's turbo's blow-off valve... I nearly jumped off my bike! So, I'm sure cages have similar experiences. But most of all, I like to encourage all those on the road to be good citizens, and courteous to one another. In part, this means have the freedom to make your vehicle unique and to your liking, but within reason. If it causes pedestrian's ears to bleed, sets off car alarms, wakes up my sleeping kids, etc..... this is not within reason, as the general public is now paying for the riders (HD anyone?) preference in pipes. Even WORSE than that, IMO, is that once you piss enough people off for long enough, they start passing more laws.... we don't need more laws, so I propose we all be conscious about self-governing.

[wyckedflesh]

Originally Posted by bob706

" First, a word on motorcycle safety:
If you've put yourself in a position where someone has to see [hear] you in order for you to be safe -- to see [hear] you, and to give a f**k -- you've already blown it."


Nuff said

+1

[headshrink]

Originally Posted by Cuongism

Does CA have a law where you can't park a certain distance from intersections?? NY and MA did (I believe 15-20ft).

Yes, we do. I believe it is 15 ft (completed my online traffic school last week).

[Sailariel]

Bob (Doc.) I think you are spot on. I subscribe to the school of bright lights--I have two lights mounted low on the front fender. This shows a triangle, which can not be mistaken for a one eyed car. My bike is green--quite visible. I wear a school bus yellow Nolan helmet. (the clashing colours do get some comments) My jacket is black, but I wear a Hi-Vis yellow harness. True--no colours match--after all, I am colour blind (wife picks out my clothes) The garish colours work, as do the lights. For me, mirrors are of paramount importance on everything--cage and bike. The Ninja has mirrors that I consider totally worthless. Kawasaki should hang their head in shame. They sacrificed safety for appearance--I called them on it with no response. If you want to spend $$ on something that will help you ride more safely, invest $150.00 on a set of slikdesignsusa.com mirrors. They telescope and retract, look as good as OEM, will fit any Japaneese bike, and take about ten minutes to install on your stock mounts. That is an investment in safety. I can see everything behind me in both mirrors without moving my arm inboard. Moving your arm inboard could be the microsecond that can kill you. My next investment will be an obnoxiously loud horn. I would like to find something that sounds like an out of control 18 Wheeler coming down on you. I could use some advice from this forum in that direction. As for loud pipes, I like what came with the bike. I am also happy with the way the bike performs. I did change to a 15T sprocket for touring. (My ninjette is a Sport Touring bike) An interesting poll concerning pipes would be to factor in age and years riding experience. Just for grins and giggles, I am 68, soon to be 69, and have been riding 50 years. (I plan to ride my Ninja to my 50th High School Reunion, 510 miles away on Oct 1) That, to me, will be an accomplishment. I had a 1956 NSU 250 when I was in High School. The NSU was hot stuff in those days for a 250. We have come full circle. The Ninjette is hot stuff in the 2000's.

[headshrink]

Sailariel - I've considered the lights, but they are a little further on the "to-do" list. I can't believe how much $$ even the average forum user here invests over time.... or I should say I can't believe how much I have been putting in, and haven't stopped. But yes, being visible is more critical than being heard.

Edit: I just looked at those mirrors. I wonder how the handle vibrations.... especially when they are extended.

[Nny]

I voted yes and no since I think the benefit of loud pipes are very situational. If that one time out of xxx,xxx times of riding it DOES save your life, it could be worth it. On the other hand none of my bikes have aftermarket exhaust and for the forseeable future none of them will ever get them.
Stock exhaust for me thanks.
I was even tempted to check "I want to make my stock exhaust even more quiet ".
My opinions have already been discussed but if I had to chose one, I would have said "no".

[gogoKawi]

I read this and I immediately thought of this post. I guess the debate rages on...

[hinow41]

Doppler effect... /End thread

[Blackwidow]

I have a story to tell...yay me...

I was driving home, and all of a sudden I hear this really loud sound, for a second I thought the sky was falling...because the noise happened so suddenly, i jerked the wheel a little (not so much where I lost control but enough to make the car jerk a little) I frantically start looking around to allow my brain to process what the hell that noise is...then suddenly, a cruiser passes me...as he was passing me I could feel the exhaust rumbling through my body...the noise was so loud it actually made me sick...this all happened while my car was in motion...those loud ass pipes freak people out, if it scared the day lights out of me, I don't even want to imagine what it would do to our seniors.

[kkim]

Originally Posted by hinow41

Doppler effect... /End thread

mind explaining that? as I understand it, the Doppler effect would have no affect on volume but on pitch.

[CC Cowboy]

Originally Posted by blackwidow

i have a story to tell...yay me...

I was driving home, and all of a sudden i jerked frantically to allow my brain to process the rumbling through my body... It actually made me sick...this all happened while my ass pipes out, it scared me to do our seniors.

wow

[Blackwidow]

lol...nice editing! i like your version of the story better.

[eddiekay]

Loud pipes piss people off.
And , given that the only thing we can top-end is a Smart Car....do we wanna get anybody pissed.

[caferacer]

What am I supposed to do with this? I guess to the dumpster it goes...

[headshrink]

Originally Posted by caferacer

What am I supposed to do with this? I guess to the dumpster it goes...

It's annoying if it's someone else's loud pipe, but aren't people impressed and envious when it's your loud pipe

[RedCromwell]

I have the stock muffler on my ninjette and I've had a few people tell me how quiet my bike is.

Do loud pipes save lives? Well, the other morning I'm cruising through the parking lot at work and see a co-worker walking along away from me. I'm approaching her at less than 10mph and she suddenly steps out in front of me to cross the parking lot.

I was anticipating this so I was able to stop quickly.

She was startled, I said "good morning", and she collected herself and was on her way. Later that day when I saw her again she said she didn't hear me that morning.

I chalk it up to her probably still being half asleep or distracted to just walk across a parking lot without looking both ways regardless of what you "hear" coming.

Luckily no one was hurt, but perhaps in this situation, if she would have heard me she would not have put herself in harm's way.

[MikeCG23]

My homie has a GSXR with a Level One exhaust on it. He can use it as a horn! After hearing that, loud pipes save lives! Or leave you deaf...

[Sailariel]

I think that discussing the merits and demerits of loud pipes is an excercise in futility. The cruisers with their straight pipes and some sport bike riders with their loud pipes have forced the hand of legislators. It is too late to change the tide of legislation forcing people to ride bikes with quiet exhaust. People are fed up with having their life disrupted by some cretin who wants to show off by attracting attention to himself with his obnoxious noise. We all end up suffering the consequences generated by these morons. The Motorcycling public is not being victimized--they are getting what they generated by their irresponsible behaviour. I have absolutely no pity for these people and look forward to some peace and quiet. There is nothing wrong with aftermarket pipes that help performance. Aftermarket pipes do not have to be loud--to sound better. There are a lot of high performance sport bikes that sound good but are not loud. The motorcycling community did not police themselves on that issue even though they were aware of the issue, and now they are getting the consequence of their inaction. Yes, there will be a lot of whining about how harsh the regulations are. Bottom Line: "We have seen the enemy and it is us",Pogo.

[headshrink]

Well said.

[voidrider]

Okay, a "loud pipe" story, but its true...it happened to me and my family.

We live in a fairly small town, the "downtown" has two main streets and is about 14 blocks long. We were driving around on a Sunday and these "very wild looking" cruiser riders are putting around, with the absolute LOUDEST pipes I have ever heard. Seriously I have heard RACE bikes that were quieter. This was the stereotypical "set off car alarms" and "watch the shop windows flex and bounce" My children started screaming from pain and that was with our car windows rolled up. Frankly, it wasn't comfortable for my wife or I either.

One of the things that was interesting was, in the downtown area, you could hear the rumble ...probably all over downtown, but with the echo, there was NO WAY to tell where the noise was coming from. Okay, loud pipes let me know there was a bike SOMEWHERE around, but not where. I really ended up feeling that I was MUCH more discomforted and pissed off than "alerted there was a motorcycle somewhere".

We had shopping errands elsewhere, and ended up coming back through that part of town maybe 45 minutes later. Both bikers were handcuffed and being put in a police car.

Moral of the story is, 'loud pipes may save lives, but they attract attention, and attention isn't necessarily a good thing when you have saddlebags full of coke, heroin, and marijuana".

[gfloyd2002]

No. Three points:

1. Loud pipes piss people off and impact the rights of reasonable motorcyclists like those on this board. The American Motorcyclist Association has a relevant policy statement on this issue:

The [AMA] believes that few other factors contribute more to misunderstanding and prejudice against the motorcycling community than excessively noisy motorcycles. Shifting blame and failing to adopt responsible policies on a voluntary basis can only result in greater prejudice and discrimination against motorcycling. The consequences of continuing to ignore this issue will likely result in excessively rigorous state and federal standards, ……[and] abusive enforcement of current laws and other solutions undesirable to riders and the motorcycle industry.

Think of all the jurisdictions that have enacted noise related ordinances directed against motorcycles while other vehicles remained less regulated, and those ordinances tend to be very strict. Recent California legislation stands out as a good example. When the actions of others (with very loud pipes) have a negative impact on my rights to enjoy motorcycling with my reasonable noise level, but performance enhancing, aftermarket exhaust (yay, Area P QC), that bothers me.

2. An overwhelming majority of accidents happen where exhaust wont matter. According to the Hurt report, only 3% of motorcycle accidents happen from the rear of the bike. (And most accidents are caused by rider error.) And even in those few cases, stock pipes may have been audible anyway and loud pipes probably would have done nothing to avoid the accident. (Ask a fireman how often cars yield the right of way to fire trucks, even when with sirens pointed forward. Studies say it is as high as 60%, and that is for something people give a crap about, unlike motorcyclists.) But motorcycle exhaust directs the vast majority of sound backwards where the least danger is, so for loud pipes to be truly effective safety measures they would need to be pointed forward. Even if the driver hears it, he/she isn't going to change their behavior because of it. And needless to say, loud pipes do nothing for the majority of accidents which are caused by rider error. You are going to be left with isolated cases where it matters, so few that you may as well print up t-shirts and make slogans about getting hit by lightning.

3. Focusing on exhaust as a preventative measure ignores about 50 things that have a more direct impact on your safety. And none of those 50 things piss other people off enough to endager you or your rights. Wearing bright colors will increase your chance of accident avoidance by 37%. How many guys saying "loud pipes save lives" wear bright colors? Or even wear helmets? But more importantly, exhaust is, at best, a secondary safety measure. Assuming that the other driver will act with caution once you have identified your presence by the sound of your bike roaring up from behind is not only statistically unlikely, it is downright foolhardy. Quoting Neal Stephenson from 'Zodiac', with a bit of editorial license in brackets:

First, a word on motorcycle safety: If you've put yourself in a position where someone has to see [hear] you in order for you to be safe -- to see [hear] you, and to give a f**k -- you've already blown it.

[sowega]

I have a bright yellow Ducati with a full 50mm Termignoni system. It is louder than any Ninja 250, and people still pull out in front of me.

[kkim]

["A"]

[bdavison]

I keep seeing statements of "you cant hear it forward", and "its facing backwards"....whatever.

If all this garbage really meant something, you'd never hear a bike coming....and we all know thats a load of bull.

Fact is, you can hear a louder bike from in front of the bike....Period.

[sowega]

Originally Posted by "A"

Amen

[kkim]

Originally Posted by bdavison

I keep seeing statements of "you cant hear it forward", and "its facing backwards"....whatever.

If all this garbage really meant something, you'd never hear a bike coming....and we all know thats a load of bull.

Fact is, you can hear a louder bike from in front of the bike....Period.

not all of us. you are entitled to your opinion... just don't include me in it.

[gfloyd2002]

Originally Posted by bdavison

I keep seeing statements of "you cant hear it forward", and "its facing backwards"....whatever.

If all this garbage really meant something, you'd never hear a bike coming....and we all know thats a load of bull.

Fact is, you can hear a louder bike from in front of the bike....Period.

You can hear a softer bike from in front, too, just not as loudly in front as in behind. So the question is how much more, and will it matter enough to increase safety. You also have the doppler effect with a moving motorcycle. When a car is standing still with a motorcycle coming towards it, the Doppler effect makes the sound quieter in front. This occurs as the motorcycle approaches, passes and recedes. The approaching sound pitch is the same as the passing sound pitch, but drops as the motorcycle rides away. This happens because the sound waves are pushed ahead of the motorcycle, but are pulled behind the bike, making the sound waves longer and lower pitched.

Think about the vvvrrrrrrVROOOOOMrooooom sound of a bike passing you, as the sound crescendos and fades. The loudness (decibel level) gradually increases as the motorcycle approaches, but does not peak until the point at which the bike just passes you, after which, decibel levels decrease. The loudest that the pipes will be is at the very point at which the motorcycle is passing you. Too late.

While really, REALLY loud pipes may have some benefit regardless of whether the car is in front or behind, in most cases, it won't matter. Not only because the decibels won't be sufficiently loud (even though sound is omnidirectional), but because the driver simply won't care.

[onetruevibe]

I really don't have anything to add to this discussion regarding loud pipes saving lives - I only have experience using the stock pipes - but I do like the sound of some of the slip-ons.

Is it possible to get that sound sans the obnoxious volume?

The use of the word "obnoxious" reflects my personal opinion and was not used with the intention of offending.

[CThunder-blue]

Originally Posted by gfloyd2002

No. Three points:

1. Loud pipes piss people off and impact the rights of reasonable motorcyclists like those on this board. The American Motorcyclist Association has a relevant policy statement on this issue:



Think of all the jurisdictions that have enacted noise related ordinances directed against motorcycles while other vehicles remained less regulated, and those ordinances tend to be very strict. Recent California legislation stands out as a good example. When the actions of others (with very loud pipes) have a negative impact on my rights to enjoy motorcycling with my reasonable noise level, but performance enhancing, aftermarket exhaust (yay, Area P QC), that bothers me.

2. An overwhelming majority of accidents happen where exhaust wont matter. According to the Hurt report, only 3% of motorcycle accidents happen from the rear of the bike. (And most accidents are caused by rider error.) And even in those few cases, stock pipes may have been audible anyway and loud pipes probably would have done nothing to avoid the accident. (Ask a fireman how often cars yield the right of way to fire trucks, even when with sirens pointed forward. Studies say it is as high as 60%, and that is for something people give a crap about, unlike motorcyclists.) But motorcycle exhaust directs the vast majority of sound backwards where the least danger is, so for loud pipes to be truly effective safety measures they would need to be pointed forward. Even if the driver hears it, he/she isn't going to change their behavior because of it. And needless to say, loud pipes do nothing for the majority of accidents which are caused by rider error. You are going to be left with isolated cases where it matters, so few that you may as well print up t-shirts and make slogans about getting hit by lightning.

3. Focusing on exhaust as a preventative measure ignores about 50 things that have a more direct impact on your safety. And none of those 50 things piss other people off enough to endager you or your rights. Wearing bright colors will increase your chance of accident avoidance by 37%. How many guys saying "loud pipes save lives" wear bright colors? Or even wear helmets? But more importantly, exhaust is, at best, a secondary safety measure. Assuming that the other driver will act with caution once you have identified your presence by the sound of your bike roaring up from behind is not only statistically unlikely, it is downright foolhardy. Quoting Neal Stephenson from 'Zodiac', with a bit of editorial license in brackets:

Excellent post Floyd

If I could get the performance of the free flowing exhaust without the sound, that would be perfect. Unfortunately, that's not possible with today's technology. I don't mind a louder than stock exhaust, but when it becomes a problem then there needs to be a line drawn. I believe in CA, vehicle exhausts are legally supposed to be kept under 95db(maybe 93) @ 50'. It's about time those cruisers and loud sport cans get the same legislation. I've had cruisers pass by where I couldn't hear my own radio with my windows rolled up. It was actually unbearable so I let off the gas to let the cruiser get further ahead of me.

I will admit that my bike has a full yoshi exhaust, but it also has the silencer in it and it's not near as loud as many other bikes or even cars. I've passed by many cops that never gave me a second glance.