DIY EFI KIT for our 250r

[setasai]

Originally Posted by KidA001

Hmmmm, name a fair price for your time. I have a garage, tools, and your favorite beer

Where do you live? If it's close by I might have time to not install it for you but we can install it together. It really isnt as bad as it might seem. The hardest part is being okay with how the throttle cables are setup. I'm pretty happy with how I've solved majority of the issue and several other members have found their own specific way of installing it as well.

Give it a shot. If something happens, email Matt, report back, and if necessary, I can swing by to take a look.

[KidA001]

Originally Posted by setasai

Where do you live? If it's close by I might have time to not install it for you but we can install it together. It really isnt as bad as it might seem. The hardest part is being okay with how the throttle cables are setup. I'm pretty happy with how I've solved majority of the issue and several other members have found their own specific way of installing it as well.

Give it a shot. If something happens, email Matt, report back, and if necessary, I can swing by to take a look.

I'm in Berkeley, a bit of a drive from SJ but not too far.

I'd need to read up a bit more and see pictures of some installs before i feel confident enough to try it myself. Also, it requires some welding for the rear o2 yeah?

[Buffalony]

Ok you psycho tweakers. I don't have time to re-read this whole thread. For us lazy arses is there a kit avail yet or atleast a parts list with a DIY thread? So far, whats the cost of this conversion running folks at the most? Performance gain up to 32Hp? Traditionally, I need some reason to have my bike in shambles for the riding season up here in the NE and to rack up credit card debt and this job seems suspect.
BTW: I might have a pre2008 cdi to part with. IM me.
Anyone done this to a bored turbo'd 250?

[OzNinja250]

I would love to do this mod, I really enjoy working on my bike almost as much as riding it. BUT...............
As mentioned many times before, no picture= did'nt happen
someone get a dyno read out. please
If I was marketing this product and If it works as mentioned, this would be money well spent on my opinion.

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by OzNinja250

someone get a dyno read out. please

Care to pay for it???

[Super-Tune]

Jiggles

Have you installed your kit yet?

See post 222. Dyno results did not go well for one DynoJet tuning shop. A 22% loss in HP 28 BHP vs 36 BHP with carbs.

We are also a DynoJet shop and have had mixed results.

[OzNinja250]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

Care to pay for it???

no I am not making any money out of it, but if i was I would, makes good business sense. I am sure there are plenty willing to purchase just need proof of performance, I just find it interesting that for all the installed EFI conversions there is not one Dyno sheet posted, sort of makes me wonder either they are so good and the extra performance is instantly felt and no proof needed or its a dud and no one wants to crystalise their loss. Other than the obvious and very awarding fact that, they had a go at it.

[setasai]

Dunno. Most of us that have it installed just uses it. I personally dont have money for a Dyno run but to be honest, I dont feel like it's all that different.

It doesnt feel particularly more or less powerful than when I had carbs. Granted, my carbs werent jetted. I just shimmed w/ 2 washers and removed the snorkel.

The EFI install was really just for fun and the fact that I think it'd be cool.

[greg737]

Originally Posted by OzNinja250

I just find it interesting that for all the installed EFI conversions there is not one Dyno sheet posted, sort of makes me wonder either they are so good and the extra performance is instantly felt and no proof needed or its a dud and no one wants to crystalise their loss. Other than the obvious and very awarding fact that, they had a go at it.

Look at you! Uncovering a vast right-wing conspiracy!

I'm keen to know what else within our social, cultural, political and economic situation is also making your "spider sense" tingle.

... While I'm not part of the Ecotrons purchase (My own FI build-up and implementation is a "one of"), I've never felt any desire to hurry to the nearest dyno. My FI project wasn't about that sort of result. I can tell you that my EX-250 is better as a result of the conversion to FI, it starts great in the cold, throttle response is instantaneous, pulls hard from idle to 13,500 rpm (I won't take it any higher, just a personally imposed limit).

I'm pretty sure it's somewhat faster/more powerful, but finding out how much isn't important enough to me to make me seek out a dyno operation.

There is even an option in the tuning and analysis software I use on my laptop (plugged into the bike's ECU for tuning rides) that can estimate the bike's horsepower if you plug in all the necessary parameters like tire diameter, final drive ratio, the ratio of the transmission gear (like 3rd gear, for example) and a few other items. But I haven't bothered to do that yet after two years of riding the bike with my FI modification. I keep telling myself maybe I'll get around to it, but it hasn't happened so far.

[Super-Tune]

I don't think there are many on this forum that understand the advantages of a good fuel injection system. This is not saying the Ecotrons kit is good because I definetely have my opinion of that.

I am a retired GM engineer and have been working with it since 1979 professionally. Not only do you gain all the advantages of better starting under all enviorments, Fuel and spark timing adjustment under all enviorments and technology that is adjustable, you should be getting a stronger bottom end and slightly higher HP through better atomization of the fuel. 3 carbureted circuits vs say 128 or 256 adjustable fuel cells just cannot compare.

OZNinja250 should not be dissed for asking something that should have been tested before 1 kit was sold. You CANNOT tune fuel injection by the seat of your pants. I Dyno every change I make to a system and look for every hundredth of a HP increase.

No one here "that has installed an Ecotrons kit" has put it on the Dyno while monitoring A/F. Lean runs strong so if you are tuning for best feel, you are prematurely damaging your engine. When I set the A/F I will find the highest HP output in 1 to 3 runs just to see what I can get out of the engine then take it back to a healthy mixture that the engine will be happy with for a long time.

It's obvoius (and very sad) that no one here seems to be concerned with that rather how cheap of a fuel injection kit they can put on their Ninja.

If DynoJet respects me enough to list me as a top Domestic tuning shop in their new 2012 Catalog, see page 3. http://www.powercommander.com/downlo...yout-b-WEB.pdf And being featured in 5 Top Performance Tuning magazines you might want to put that kool-Aid down that your drinking and really try to tune your Ninja for performance and not self destruction.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by Super-Tune

It's obvoius (and very sad) that no one here seems to be concerned with that rather how cheap of a fuel injection kit they can put on their Ninja.

If DynoJet respects me enough to list me as a top Domestic tuning shop in their new 2012 Catalog, see page 3. http://www.powercommander.com/downlo...yout-b-WEB.pdf And being featured in 5 Top Performance Tuning magazines you might want to put that kool-Aid down that your drinking and really try to tune your Ninja for performance and not self destruction.

Alright Mr Perfect, Get off your horse. No one cares how important you think you are, or how skilled you are at tuning FI systems. It's Greg's system, not yours. It's his bike, not yours. It's his project, his time, and again, not yours. If you hadn't noticed, 250's are kinda lean from the factory, and they don't have ans issues long term. I highly doubt that his system is going to get to "self destruction" anytime soon, because he seems to be doing a really good job of tuning meticulously it so it runs to his liking.

Congratulations. Dynojet likes you. Woohoo. Showing us a list of shop names doesn't mean diddly.

[sendler]

So what is the " good " kit. Does anyone else make an EFI retrofit for the Ninja250?

[Super-Tune]

Greg is one of the few on your forum I respect and would trust to tune an EFI system, I'm referring to the Ecotrons kits, not what Greg did. It's obvious you have drank way too much Kool-Aid at this point to be saved as even your reading comprehension is already skewed.

I already know the answer to the Dyno results. They have been posted before by another top DynoJet tuner.

See post 222. Dyno results did not go well. A 22% loss in HP 28 BHP vs 36 BHP with carbs.

[choneofakind]

...again with the arrogance. "one of the few"?? Wow. You must be at such a high level compared to the rest of us. We obviously aren't even worthy of cleaning your feet oh Holy One.

"your forum"?? Now you're just proving that you don't belong here.

I'm running carbs. I obviously haven't "drank way too much Kool-aid" or else I would be $500 poorer at this point, and trying to figure out how to get an FI kit to work on a pregen.

[Super-Tune]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

I obviously haven't "drank way too much Kool-aid" or else I would be $500 poorer at this point, and trying to figure out how to get an FI kit to work on a pregen.

My bad... based on your comments I was sure you were one of the group buyers.

Originally Posted by choneofakind

... You must be at such a high level compared to the rest of us.

I don't know the background of anyone else here.

[OzNinja250]

Originally Posted by greg737

Look at you! Uncovering a vast right-wing conspiracy!

I'm keen to know what else within our social, cultural, political and economic situation is also making your "spider sense" tingle.

Well, I am always up for a discussion amongst friends debating various topics, usually "kool aid involved", just joking ha ha. (i like beer better.)

As I mentioned I love mucking around with my bike as much as anyone, and also DIY fuel injection is really cool, and I admire smart guys like Matt and ecotrons at being able to put a kit like this together, not to mention those that made the commitment to install. I can relate to the whole mod as being in the hobby category although I acknowledge that the benefits of fuel injection are many and widespread.

I was just trying to satisfy my "spider sense" and try to promote the discussion on whether their was a "performance" gain.
and in closing......... not "spider sense" ....just inquisitive.........

ps.where i am from, mentioning that another man has any connections with a spider promotes a different type of discussion.... lol. hey, i am sure that was not your intention....its all good.

[choneofakind]

ftr OzNinja250, it was a reference to this guy:


if only this is how the comic really happened

[lc86]

Originally Posted by Buffalony

Ok you psycho tweakers. I don't have time to re-read this whole thread. For us lazy arses is there a kit avail yet or atleast a parts list with a DIY thread? So far, whats the cost of this conversion running folks at the most? Performance gain up to 32Hp? Traditionally, I need some reason to have my bike in shambles for the riding season up here in the NE and to rack up credit card debt and this job seems suspect.
BTW: I might have a pre2008 cdi to part with. IM me.
Anyone done this to a bored turbo'd 250?

If you feel like trying the Ecotrons kit with the OEM TB, here is my walkthrough. Pricewise it depends on how much you pay for the kit and TB, I would say a reasonable estimate would be roughly a grand and around 4-10 hours of work depending on your level of experience.
http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showt...ht=efi+install

[el250]

Originally Posted by Super-Tune

I don't know the background of anyone else here.

Hello Richard?, http://twostrokemotocross.com/2011/0...uel-injection/

Is this the same Richard of High Gain Antenna that was in the news years back for being sued by busybox?


I have followed your developments on apriliaforum.

I have no beef with HGT or ecotrons. Sad to see the attitude displayed here.
It would be great if you used your expertise and High Gain Tuning to develop a product for a 4 stroke like the ex250.

For the ex250, ecotrons kit is it or roll your own which is beyond many peoples means.
I myself have the stuff to do it myself using oem tb but has taken a good amount of money and time but isn't for performance or anything but just to do it.


Ecotrons stuff does look like generic scooter parts slapped together.
Customization did seem to go into the harness and ecu maybe.
It doesn't exactly look like the stuff he sent you or that you can buy in huge lots on every street in china.
Then again I haven't bought their stuff and opened one to check because it is overpriced still considering what it is and where it is coming from...

[setasai]

Originally Posted by el250

Then again I haven't bought their stuff and opened one to check because it is overpriced still considering what it is and where it is coming from...

Just wondering, what would you consider an appropriate price?

[el250]

Originally Posted by setasai

Just wondering, what would you consider an appropriate price?

I would of payed 250 shipped but I don't make sense since that is close to what I payed for just the oem tb.

[Super-Tune]

Originally Posted by el250

Hello Richard?, http://twostrokemotocross.com/2011/0...uel-injection/

Is this the same Richard of High Gain Antenna that was in the news years back for being sued by busybox?

Yeah, that's one of my other companies. More of a learning curve than anything. After they found out we were just another victim of a Brazilian software developer, it was dismissed. Busybox went after every one of their clients rather than going after the source itself because they were in Brazil. All over not including a piece of paper with each radio sold because we never sold retail, only to OEM's. http://www.softwarefreedom.org/news/...6/busybox-hga/

I have followed your developments on apriliaforum.
Yeah, which one(s)

I have no beef with HGT or ecotrons. Sad to see the attitude displayed here.
It would be great if you used your expertise and High Gain Tuning to develop a product for a 4 stroke like the ex250.

I am currently only doing 2t's but that is soon to change. We just received our new 1, 2 and 4 cylinder ECU's today. First gave Ecotrons "OEM" ECU's a try but way too many problems they have been unable to correct or chose not to correct so I continued on with our own production which we had started 2 years earlier.

For the ex250, ecotrons kit is it or roll your own which is beyond many peoples means.
I myself have the stuff to do it myself using oem tb but has taken a good amount of money and time but isn't for performance or anything but just to do it.


Ecotrons stuff does look like generic scooter parts slapped together.
Customization did seem to go into the harness and ecu maybe.
It doesn't exactly look like the stuff he sent you or that you can buy in huge lots on every street in china.
Then again I haven't bought their stuff and opened one to check because it is overpriced still considering what it is and where it is coming from...

[setasai]

Originally Posted by el250

I would of payed 250 shipped but I don't make sense since that is close to what I payed for just the oem tb.

You know, I've always wondered if they could sell the kit minus the TB for those that already have an OEM TB or maybe wants to incorporate the O2 sensors only. I think that'd be a good option.

I've said this before but I'll say it again. I think the ecotrons kit (if you can call it that) is great sans the TB. That I believe is their one and greatest weakness. The wiring harness and ECU works great for me and every other component hasnt caused me ANY problems during install. As far as I know, they are working on some new TB revisions/parts whatever it may be. Let's see what they come up with.

[ecotrons]

Originally Posted by Super-Tune

Originally Posted by el250
Hello Richard?, http://twostrokemotocross.com/2011/0...uel-injection/

Is this the same Richard of High Gain Antenna that was in the news years back for being sued by busybox?

Yeah, that's one of my other companies. More of a learning curve than anything. After they found out we were just another victim of a Brazilian software developer, it was dismissed. Busybox went after every one of their clients rather than going after the source itself because they were in Brazil. All over not including a piece of paper with each radio sold because we never sold retail, only to OEM's. http://www.softwarefreedom.org/news/...6/busybox-hga/

I have followed your developments on apriliaforum.
Yeah, which one(s)

I have no beef with HGT or ecotrons. Sad to see the attitude displayed here.
It would be great if you used your expertise and High Gain Tuning to develop a product for a 4 stroke like the ex250.

I am currently only doing 2t's but that is soon to change. We just received our new 1, 2 and 4 cylinder ECU's today. First gave Ecotrons "OEM" ECU's a try but way too many problems they have been unable to correct or chose not to correct so I continued on with our own production which we had started 2 years earlier.

For the ex250, ecotrons kit is it or roll your own which is beyond many peoples means.
I myself have the stuff to do it myself using oem tb but has taken a good amount of money and time but isn't for performance or anything but just to do it.

People can find out the truth.

[MFNcody]

Just went through this thread and maybe I missed it, what's the problem with the ecotrons throttle body that makes the OEM one better to use? The only thing i've seen is that the OEM one has unsupported secondary butterflies, which if anything would make me not want to use it.

[lc86]

Originally Posted by MFNcody

Just went through this thread and maybe I missed it, what's the problem with the ecotrons throttle body that makes the OEM one better to use? The only thing i've seen is that the OEM one has unsupported secondary butterflies, which if anything would make me not want to use it.

You might want to reread the thread then. The gen1 TB was atrocious, but since then it has been redesigned and the gen2 apparently has addressed all of the issues that plagued the original design. The OEM TB is just so much more solidly built and much higher quality, the secondary butterflies make no difference because you can take them off. For a point of reference, I installed my kit with OEM TB (and better hose) in under 5 hours from start to finish without any problems.

With that said, I can't speak for the 2nd gen TB, but I can still assume that the OEM TB is of much higher quality.

[lgk]

Originally Posted by MFNcody

Just went through this thread and maybe I missed it, what's the problem with the ecotrons throttle body that makes the OEM one better to use? The only thing i've seen is that the OEM one has unsupported secondary butterflies, which if anything would make me not want to use it.

the OEM throttle is a proven design.
the new throttle body is much better, and has corrected most of the complaints from the group buy.

back when this thread was started, the Ecotrons throttle had no fuel rail, and throttle cable mounts were not well designed.

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=96942

[sendler]

So how does it run? Are all the bugs worked out? Fuel economy any better? I really thought this kit would be a big seller but it seems there are very few people that dare to try it.

[lgk]

Originally Posted by sendler

So how does it run? Are all the bugs worked out? Fuel economy any better? I really thought this kit would be a big seller but it seems there are very few people that dare to try it.

the fuel economy is about 5mpg better than my carb setup, when riding between 45-55mph. on the freeway at 65+ it is about the same.

the throttle response is much faster than the carb setup.

starts real easy, and i ride off immediately with no bog down or stall.


eta:
the kit is well done but you still need to do some leg work in completing it.
maybe that is what gives the potential installer pause.

[sendler]

Originally Posted by lgk

the kit is well done but you still need to do some leg work in completing it.
maybe that is what gives the potential installer pause.

I would really like to convert my daughters 09 Ninja because it is really cold blooded even after adjusting the idle screws. The weather is cold where I live much of the year. At temps below 45F the Ninja never really does run right even on a long trip. My CBR250R always runs perfect right out of the garage.
.
A dual channel, logging fuel injection system would be great but I don't have time to make a battle out of getting it to work.

[lgk]

Originally Posted by sendler

I would really like to convert my daughters 09 Ninja because it is really cold blooded even after adjusting the idle screws. The weather is cold where I live much of the year. At temps below 45F the Ninja never really does run right even on a long trip. My CBR250R always runs perfect right out of the garage.
.
A dual channel, logging fuel injection system would be great but I don't have time to make a battle out of getting it to work.

Posted via Mobile Device

[lgk]

I would not call it a battle, but i did have to make a couple of extra trips to the parts store.
With temp issues you are better off with a thermobob install
Posted via Mobile Device

[sendler]

Originally Posted by lgk

I would not call it a battle, but i did have to make a couple of extra trips to the parts store.
With temp issues you are better off with a thermobob install
Posted via Mobile Device

A thermobob might help. Might not. The big problem is the fuel condensation inherent in motorcycle carbs.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by sendler

I would really like to convert my daughters 09 Ninja because it is really cold blooded even after adjusting the idle screws. The weather is cold where I live much of the year. At temps below 45F the Ninja never really does run right even on a long trip. My CBR250R always runs perfect right out of the garage.
.
A dual channel, logging fuel injection system would be great but I don't have time to make a battle out of getting it to work.

Just a suggestion, but if you are having starting issues, you might want to consider a valve adjustment if its on the 6K mile anniversary and hasn't already been done. Valves that are too tight will cause that kind of problem too.

But as far as the ecotrons kit goes, although the gen3 throttle body appears much improved over the gen2 throttle body, its still basically the same throttle body. The gen1 throttle body was even worse. The group buy got gen2 and ecotrons is now selling gen3. The gen1 throttle body didn't have the injector tubes welded on and didn't have the forbitel mod. Each generation is based on the ideas submitted by previous customers.

All ecotrons throttle body generations are fabricated from two 28mm air flow valves that are bolted together, injector tubes attached and other post production refinements added. They were not designed to be throttle bodies. The OEM was designed from the ground up to be a throttle body specific for the Ninja 250. Even compared to the gen3 throttle body, it is vastly superior.

The bottom line is that if you are considering the ecotrons kit, first, read this thread, then get an OEM throttle body. You might also talk to IC86 who was selling his kit with the OEM throttle body included.

In any case, the other thing is that you'll need to weld O2 sensor bungs in your headers.

With ecotrons, its buyer beware. My personal recommendation is that you stay away from him.

[lgk]

Originally Posted by sendler

A thermobob might help. Might not. The big problem is the fuel condensation inherent in motorcycle carbs.

not sure if it helps with condensation, but it keeps the engine temp uniform.

my ninja used to never warm up, even in 70degree weather.
the radiator temp would be around 120 and the block would be between 150-175.

after the thermo bob its 190-200 and holds

most engines and oil are designed to operate at around 200 degrees, the quicker the motor heats up and remains there the better.

[sendler]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Just a suggestion, but if you are having starting issues, you might want to consider a valve adjustment if its on the 6K mile anniversary and hasn't already been done.

Not a starting problem. Just generally runs poorly and hesitates until fully warm. Carburetors are so 20th century.

[iNinja]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

With ecotrons, its buyer beware. My personal recommendation is that you stay away from him.

i recently installed the conversion and didn't have a single problem with him. matt was very helpful through the whole process with anything i needed. my kit is a v2.0 and the bike runs awesome. i wouldn't go back to carb. i had the v1.0 on the bike for about 2 weeks and the v2.0 is a definite improvement.

[pomartin]

how is it different from original EFI system?

[greg737]

A thermobob might help. Might not.

@sendler, I want to make sure I understand you here.

You've just posted that your daughter's EX-250 is a cold blooded beast, and our answer to that is, "Yeah, that's how Kawasaki built them, they're all like that."

Then @lgk tries to help you out by directing you toward the Thermobob, which has been proven to remedy every single temperature related EX-250 complaint except the need to use choke during cold start-up (which the Ecotrons EFI kit will take care of).

It surprised me to see you toss it back in his face in a rather off-hand, dismissive kind of way.

I have a Thermobob installed on my EX-250 and I can back up everything @lgk has to say about the product. It makes a world of difference in how the EX-250 warms up and runs.

[lgk]

Originally Posted by greg737

I have a Thermobob installed on my EX-250 and I can back up everything @lgk has to say about the product. It makes a world of difference in how the EX-250 warms up and runs.

the thermobob is proven, it uses the same theory of operation as cages.
so it cant be questioned whether it works or not. it does.

maybe he thought i was bullshitting, since there's no specific kit for a newgen.
well he's right, but its not hard to made the pregen kit work.







the ECU seems to like the consistent temps, and the EFI system as a whole is working great.