Trailbraking Discussion - Spinoff from "Rear Brake" Thread

[muffinman]

I thought the rear brake use thread was interesting as-is and didn't want to threadjack... So per Alex's suggestion, thought I'd create a separate thread to discuss the correct methods of applying trailbraking technique.

Someone mentioned in the other thread while the general rule is to gradually apply throttle as you turn (Keith Code's Twist of the Wrist II) to maintain the ideal 40/60 F/R balance / traction, someone else stated that with modern bikes, trailbraking can be used safely and effectively.

So for street-riding, what is the best and safest way to trailbrake? With front or rear brake only (I'm assuming never use the rear brake in those situations)

Obviously, the best method would be to kill off enough speed to not need any brakes at all, but in the event that you come into a corner just a tad bit too hot, what's the best way to trailbrake?

[Alex]

I think a good start to this thread is the wikipedia entry for trailbraking:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_braking

It's a pretty comprehensive entry, and covers the gist of what it is, why it is, how it can be done, and some of the risks of using it (and not using it). I think the first thing to understand is what it is not. It has nothing to do with using the rear brake. I don't know why this is, but it's quite often where people equate "trailbraking" with "rear brake usage in corners", when those two concepts aren't the same at all.

"Normal" braking would be when you complete all of the braking prior to a corner, fully let off the brakes, and then enter the corner and start to lean the bike over.

Trailbraking in general, is carrying the braking process well into the turn itself, and leaving pressure on the brakes (front and/or rear as well) as you turn in, then trailing off (letting pressure off) as the turn continues, usually having let completely off by the time you hit the apex.

On a track, sometimes it just makes intuitive sense. Some corners simply lend themselves to braking quite deep, and staying on the brakes longer than other corners. Decreasing radius corners in particular can be good examples of this. On the street, there's perhaps a little less need to be trailbraking, and certainly there are folks that can keep a quick street pace all day long without every trailbraking (or braking at all, for that matter). There are some folks I ride with who have taken that Spencer school a number of times, and many of them are now trailbraking fiends and swear that the technique is useful to them on every single corner. The thinking is that if the front brake is already partially engaged, then if you do have to adjust your line or add any addtional brake while still in the turn, the bike is already prepared to accept additional braking pressure. While if you are rolling along through the turn with the standard 40%F/60%R weight distribution on increasing throttle ala the Code method, you would not be able to add much, if any front brake to adjust your line without upsetting the bike's suspension.

Anyway, I'd be curious what other folks think about it as well. Personally, I try to get most of my braking done before corners on the street, but if I don't, I understand that if I'm careful with the braking pressure, the bike can handle quite a bit of it even in as lean angles increase as long as I am smooth. One gotcha is that as you need to be even smoother letting off the brake as you were getting on the brake. If you're not smooth, it can screw with the bike's traction quite a bit and just letting off the brake abruptly can be the cause of a lowside. The general rule of thumb taught in Freddie's school is that it should take you twice as long to release the brakes compared to however long it took you to first apply them. I.E. if it took you 2 seconds from initial application to full braking power when getting into the turn, once you start releasing them it may take 4 seconds before you can release them fully (for 6 seconds total, 2 increasing the braking force, and 4 spent releasing the braking force).

[ally99]

Just to throw in my 2 cents here, according to my MSF class, get all braking done prior to the curve whenever possible and roll on a bit of throttle during the curve to efficiently maximize traction. Start the curve slow, end fast. If one takes a curve too fast and feels the need to slow down mid-curve, the only option they suggested is to lean that baby further over rather than using the brake. I do realize that the MSF class teaches ONE basic method of riding, and this forum has already taught me that there isn't just ONE right way to do things. My husband agrees with Alex and says that some front braking in a lean is ok as long as it's slow and progressive. In a lean, the bike still has some traction available for braking. I think the common error occurs when people quickly grab a handful of brake in a curve and/or let off the brake too quickly.
On another connected note, the times when emergency braking is imperative during a curve still leaves me feeling a bit on edge, so to speak. I don't like the "emergency braking in a curve" method the MSF class taught which is to square the handlebars and then brake. In some situations, sure, that works, but if there is a car coming in the other lane, that would be a devastating approach to avoiding an obstacle in a curve just to be hit head-on by an approaching vehicle because using that method, you are likely to go into the other lane a bit. I always try to ride on the outside of the curve so I can see father through the curve, but what do you guys do if you are at the apex of the curve and BAM, there's a stopped car in front of you...or a deer...or whatever?
I'm learning so much from you all. Thanks for all of your replies to my rear brake thread! Ally

[rockNroll]

Originally Posted by ally99

what do you guys do if you are at the apex of the curve and BAM, there's a stopped car in front of you...or a deer...or whatever?
I'm learning so much from you all. Thanks for all of your replies to my rear brake thread! Ally

In my opinion, most novice riders are asking to go down if they apply brake at the apex of a corner. I practiced trail braking a lot on the track and still try to stay away from it on the roads. The track has run-off space for ya... most roads do not. Look for daylight and change your line. Going wide is easiest so if there's room to open your line and go around the object that's my preferred maneuver... standing the bike up and going straight off the corner is an option if you have the space, but around here, we have lotsa guard rails. You can push harder on the inside clip on and tighten your line, but if the corner is blind you run the risk of a head-on with on coming traffic if you enter the on coming lane. If the corner is open and I can see through it I'll tighten up and use that inside lane. Whatever course you take.. be smooth on the throttle and clipons.

This may get some flaming but in my years of riding I've decided that there's almost always room for a motorcycle between cars, passing each other in opposite directions and if I really need to use it I will.... if there just isn't any other way out. I've not been surprised by objects sitting still in corners much as I keep my corner speeds in a zone where I feel I'll see an object with enough time to make evasive maneuvers. If something enters my corner (dog, deer, etc) I try to keep smooth and adjust my line to head to where the object is coming from... not where it's heading. "Aim for the deer and it will be gone by the time you reach that spot" idea.

[Rayme]

For the times I came in a corner too hot or just too comfortable for my taste, I usually slowly roll off the throttle (effectively rear braking) and countersteer more...

See what I did just there? I used my tire's un-used traction to apply more turning force instead of braking...keeping in mind I'm not at my tires limit..which braking wouldn't be much more help... there's always going to be situations when going down is the only way out of a corner.

[smcbride11]

Originally Posted by Rayme

For the times I came in a corner too hot or just too comfortable for my taste, I usually slowly roll off the throttle (effectively rear braking) and countersteer more...

Doesn't this effectively rob your front tire of traction you might need when you deepen your lean angle? Understood, you said that you had traction in reserve, but it seems to me that completely closing the throttle would actually have a detrimental effect on handling.

[Kurosaki]

On the street, I don't trailbrake. On the track, depends. Usually when the brakes start fading it becomes a little necessary. The 250 is not a fast bike and it's not like you're coming into turns at 130+.

In general, for this bike, I would say you're better off getting all your braking done early, turn in, and get back on the gas as soon as possible. For both track and street. Cornerspeed is the name of the game with this bike.

[Broom]

chopping the throttle (quickly letting off) in a turn is one of the biggest causes of crashes in a corner. its very upsetting to the bike. it's also everyones first gut instinct when something spooks them and is one of the hardest habits to break.

however... rolling off the throttle is a good way to slow down some if necessary, and, depending on the situation, will automatically drop the bike even more into the turn and tighten up your line.

the key to all of this is to be smooth. EVERYONE should work on being smooth FIRST. while being smooth you can begin to apply some of the more advanced techniques such as corner braking.

[Broom]

great vid by our local fast guy and instructor Ty Howard on braking. talks a lot about trail braking.

Link to original page on YouTube.

[Kurosaki]

Originally Posted by Broom

chopping the throttle (quickly letting off) in a turn is one of the biggest causes of crashes in a corner. its very upsetting to the bike. it's also everyones first gut instinct when something spooks them and is one of the hardest habits to break.

this

Originally Posted by Broom

the key to all of this is to be smooth. EVERYONE should work on being smooth FIRST. while being smooth you can begin to apply some of the more advanced techniques such as corner braking.

and this

[backinthesaddleagain]

Originally Posted by Broom

chopping the throttle (quickly letting off) in a turn is one of the biggest causes of crashes in a corner. its very upsetting to the bike. it's also everyones first gut instinct when something spooks them and is one of the hardest habits to break.

however... rolling off the throttle is a good way to slow down some if necessary, and, depending on the situation, will automatically drop the bike even more into the turn and tighten up your line.

the key to all of this is to be smooth. EVERYONE should work on being smooth FIRST. while being smooth you can begin to apply some of the more advanced techniques such as corner braking.

agreed - also smooth helps when ground is wet, sandy, etc. any place that a mistake's consequences can be multiplied, smoothness is the answer.

[Broom]

its funny how it works... you start concentrating on being smooth instead of being fast, and your lap times drop

yet you don't feel like you're going as fast as you were.

[backinthesaddleagain]

Originally Posted by Broom

its funny how it works... you start concentrating on being smooth instead of being fast, and your lap times drop

yet you don't feel like you're going as fast as you were.

yeah, its funny when you see some bike shootouts the bikes that felt the fastest by the seat of the pants, didn't turn the fastest laptimes. the 600 SS shootout was like that, the CBR felt smooth and boring, while the ZX felt fastest, yet many testers turned their best times on the CBR.

racing can be like that when out in front, everything seems slower and you are waiting for the pack to come flying by.

[backinthesaddleagain]

if you are riding on a trail you should always use your brakes to avoid hitting trees.

ok, silly i know, but hey its been a long week, and not much riding time as we have had bad T storms and flood conditions most of the week.

[Broom]

Originally Posted by backinthesaddleagain

racing can be like that when out in front, everything seems slower and you are waiting for the pack to come flying by.

hasn't happend to me yet... haha

[Rayme]

Originally Posted by Broom

its funny how it works... you start concentrating on being smooth instead of being fast, and your lap times drop

yet you don't feel like you're going as fast as you were.

The first time I went auto-x'ing I had the same thing. Somebody told me to use less throttle and less brake and be more gently and on throttle and braking....what ya think happen? I had slightly faster lap time ...then you realize that you can apply that "do everything smooth" to almost everything and it works better

[Alex]

I love the tiny cameras placed on the GP and other racing bikes that are aimed at the controls, whether throttle/brake, clutch, or even shifter. It's always amazing to me that no matter how violently these machines are tearing around the track, accelerating at tremendous speeds, braking at tremendous rates, flipping side to side faster than we can imagine, what the riders are doing on the controls always looks so smooth, slow, and gentle. Slow hands make for a fast bike, evidently. Seems to be universally true across all types of bikes, as well.

I think the smoothness angle is likely true for most 4-wheeled racing as well. The smoother you are the better the car can better distribute the load of whatever it's trying to do up to the limits of that particular contact patch, and you can stay closer to those limits both longer and easier. One caveat though is that with cars, sometimes the view from outside the car looks like it is being driven in a very smooth manner by looking at what the car itself is doing, but if you have a cam pointed at the steering wheel of that same car, it's amazing what some drivers need to do in some cars in terms of sawing it back and forth like a madman to make the car itself look like it's behaving in a smooth manner.

[CC Cowboy]

That's why I'm one smooth modecker.

[Apex]

That is my number 1 goal of motorcycling, especially at the track.

To be smooth.

If you are smooth, you have a good portion of riding down pat. Then you can fine tune the braking points, learn to roll on earlier, etc.

I guess that is why I'm looking forward to taking the 250 to the track. I'll have to focus on being smooth, because if I have to slow due to a mistake, then I take a big hit on lap times, because I don't have the power to make up for errors.

The only thing I'm thinking about next month, while I'm running the track, is being smooth. The rest will come in time, with education and practice.

[CC Cowboy]

I find that I never engine brake (I do trail brake on occassion). I ride like I'm on a 250 2-stroke. I use the brakes and down shift right before the turn. I feel more relaxed and the bike seems more stable.

I look at the turn, I figure how many down shifts I need (to be in the correct gear coming out of the turn) and just down shift gently right before the turn, lean into the turn and get on the gas.

I haven't always done it this way ( I was full on maddog on the track back in the day) but now I just like to enjoy the ride instead of impressing myself.

I'm probably faster now (yea right), safer (maybe), and having just as much fun with less wear and tear on the bike.

[Angel-be-Good]

Originally Posted by Broom

great vid by our local fast guy and instructor Ty Howard on braking. talks a lot about trail braking.

Thanks for the video

[Purspeed]

Originally Posted by Broom

EVERYONE should work on being smooth FIRST. while being smooth you can begin to apply some of the more advanced techniques such as corner braking.