Fouled Plugs - But why

[Chim]

Hellooooo Again! I started on this site when I first got my 07 250 because the bike wouldn't start. It truly helped me learn to clean the carbs to get it running again because the needles were clogged, as well as helped me change out the Pilot - since I removed the airbox for aftermarket filters. My needles have 3 shims on them, mixture screws are out 2.5 turns and I have 110 jets in them. After comming home from a weekend, the bike wouldn't start. I've replaced the battery since the one looked like to stock '07 and it seemed to not hold a charge.

After still not starting and reading here some more, I checked the plugs. They would spark against the engine when pulled and in the boot, but had oil on the Silver rim above the threads, and they looked way too dark from just a few months of casual riding (and weren't NGK brand). So I replaced them, and the Bike has fired right up with some choke help. My question is, why are they fouling? Even the bolt heads inside the engine (after you remove the plug boot) appears to have crap on it. Does this mean my mixture is too lean or rich? I've read many how to's and DIY's, but I don't want to screw the bike up anymore since I do need to sell it sometime in the future for financial reasons and would rather be positive it's fixed and not screw the next guy. Thus, a specific question for my issue I thought would be best.

My Oil is also extremely low, even though I put new oil in it when I put the cheap-o brand spark plugs in it 2 months ago. New filter and all. Should I 'burp' the system of oil, or just drain it completely and start from scratch with both? Is Oil the issue, or is my mixture being wrong messing with everything else? I know having it too lean can cause Head problems, and I'm praying this isn't it. I've wiped around the head gasket area and haven't seen any new drips or pools forming from where I've wiped, but that's not guarantee nothing is wrong inside... These forums have helped me tremendously being a first time 250 owner, but I'm at a loss.

And yes, before checking the plugs I pulled the carbs, made sure needles were clear of junk, and used carb cleaner to soak the parts before putting back together. Any info would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks for your time.

[greg737]

Very nice bike, the last of the Classic line: A 2007 in Metallic Phantom Silver. It's pretty unique, they only used that paint color for 2007.

You never, ever, ever let the oil get low in an EX-250. Not even once. It's a great little engine, but low oil will mess it up quick. You should check the oil level before every ride (just a quick glance at the sightglass gauge while holding the bike upright and not on the center stand). There are people who have 60,000 70,000 80,000 or more miles on an EX-250 engine, but they're also the people who always check the oil. All it takes is one time letting the oil get old or low and you've got an engine that's not going to last long without trouble.

You never, ever, ever run cheap plugs in an EX-250. I'll let somebody with more experience cover that issue: http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Changin...rands_to_avoid

Where in this example range are your plugs? http://www.dansmc.com/Spark_Plugs/Sp...s_catalog.html I think that part of the "message" we should all get from this chart is that spark plugs aren't clean looking and pretty when they come out of an engine, even when they're "Best" per the chart. Sometimes their natural burned-looking ugliness throws us off a bit.

since I removed the airbox for aftermarket filters. My needles have 3 shims on them, mixture screws are out 2.5 turns and I have 110 jets in them.

With this setup running on the original exhausts I'd be willing to believe that you're on the rich side. I'm not a carb-tuning expert, but aren't 110 jets usually associated with both aftermarket filters and an aftermarket exhaust. It's possible that because the bike is still running the OEM exhausts it's not flowing enough air to handle the richness of 110 jets and 3 shims.

I've wiped around the head gasket area and haven't seen any new drips or pools forming from where I've wiped, but that's not guarantee nothing is wrong inside...

Usually if your head gasket is leaking it's nothing to worry about. Whoever did the bike's first or last valve adjustment must have messed it up. It's messy but unless it's just poring out oil, it's not an indicator of worse problems. You should correct the situation either by properly re-seating the gasket or by buying a new one.

Are you sure the oil is low? Also, I've never heard of "burping" an EX-250.

The best method for determining whether the oil level is actually where it should be on an unmodified (i.e. normal rear shock, not raised or lowered) EX-250 is this:

On a very flat garage floor or driveway or sidewalk. Starting with the bike on its sidestand and you crouched down on the righthand side of the bike so you can see the oil sightglass. Reach up and grab the right handlebar grip (squeezing the brake lever with it) and bring the bike up toward vertical. With your left hand grab the center stand and bring it gently down to the floor (or driveway or sidewalk). When both of the center stand legs barely touch the floor at the same time your bike is perfectly vertical (if the bike is even a tiny bit tilted one of the side stand legs won't touch the floor). This is when you check the oil level.

Throughout the process you tell yourself that maintaining the bike's balance and keeping control of it is the most important item, while getting a good look at the sightglass is secondary. Slow and gentle.

Of course, having somebody to help you (even just as a spotter) would be best, although I can't get my own wife to come out into the garage.

Any other position of the bike gives a bad oil level reading. If it's on the centerstand it'll be tilted too far forward to give a true reading (shows low oil reading). If you're sitting on the bike you'll be compressing the rear shock and the bike will be tilted too far to back to give a true reading (shows more than actual oil level).

[Chim]

Thanks. I just changed the Oil and filter a few months ago, so no, haven't been checking all the time. When it wouldn't start this last time, holding it upright from the right side, I noticed there was none in the sightglass. This combined with fouled plugs (once changed to the NGK's it started right up) has me worried about other issues.

The left I'd say is around #8, the right, more-so an #11. Cheap brand, though. I just replaced with the NGK one's and they started right up. Also, before the bike would run, the oil sight glass was empty. So I went out and bought Oil, but once getting it running, the glass is full again. Is this typical for a bike that hasn't run / run well in 2 weeks or so? Should I just change the Oil to be safe?

My main worry before was it running too lean and messing with the Head Gasket and such, so it would make sense if the plugs look to be too rich and fouled that way. I turned the screws back to 2.5 turns out and it started right up with the new plugs and battery in it. Still seems to have a slight ping/knock while idling... so working on figuring that issue out now. Whether it's bad oil, not enough oil, or bad mixture, not sure yet.

Thanks for the reply and info. I saved that link for future reference.

[Chim]

Originally Posted by greg737

With this setup running on the original exhausts I'd be willing to believe that you're on the rich side. I'm not a carb-tuning expert, but aren't 110 jets usually associated with both aftermarket filters and an aftermarket exhaust. It's possible that because the bike is still running the OEM exhausts it's not flowing enough air to handle the richness of 110 jets and 3 shims.

So would 2.5 screws out be decent, or should they go in some more. I had originally had the bike warmed up, and turned the screws in until it started to miss, then back out 1/4 turn. Apparently I messed that up though because now with them at 2.5out, it started alright without much choke/if any. Wondering if 2out would be good for what I have going.

[greg737]

Originally Posted by Chim

So would 2.5 screws out be decent, or should they go in some more. I had originally had the bike warmed up, and turned the screws in until it started to miss, then back out 1/4 turn. Apparently I messed that up though because now with them at 2.5out, it started alright without much choke/if any. Wondering if 2out would be good for what I have going.

I think so. Remember that off the showroom floor you get a bike that was tuned to impress the EPA mostly (and you just enough to buy it) so the exhaust gas content at idle is very important to Kawasaki. That's why they're tuned lean.

Your bike, with it's aftermarket filter and standard exhaust, probably flows a bit more air than the stock bike did so the factory idle-screw setting would be way too lean and the 2.5 setting should be about right.

Setting them with the bike warmed up is the correct way to do it: http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/How_do_...dle_mixture%3F

As the FAQ says, you can experiment to find the absolute sweet spot for your bike.

Don't try to tune the carbs for cold starts, you'll never be able to do that. That's why the choke is there. It's an ugly, caveman-ish device but it's all you can do with carbs.

[Chim]

I think that was one of my problems. I went through that FAQ, but didn't do it with the Bike warm cause I don't have the Offset wrench/screwdriver which makes it easy to keep hands away from the hot engine. Gonna put some Seafoam in it, take it out for a bit and get some more Stabilizer and hopefully should be golden.
Thanks for the replies!

[n4mwd]

Make sure you are checking the oil while the bike is on its center stand. It will always read low to empty when on its side stand. If you overfill, you'll get symptoms like you described. Too much oil can be damaging to the engine. Also, Champion cheapies have been known to damage the engine too, so NGK forever if you want your bike to last long.

[Chim]

Right before I just took the bike out to see how it was running, I checked the oil level again and noticed that the inside of the window has a white-ish like 'fog' to it. Never seen that there before.

[greg737]

Not on the center stand!

Here's what the ninja250.org FAQs have to say about checking your oil:

Here's how the owners' manual says you should check it: "Check the engine oil level through the oil level gauge. With the motorcycle held level the oil should come up between upper and lower level lines next to the gauge."

This translates as: "Full" is the top line (near the top of the window) when the bike is held vertical and both wheels are on the ground. Keeping the oil at or close to the upper mark is desirable, but do not overfill it, as you could blow a gasket. Only add a small amount at a time.

Note: When the bike is on its centerstand the level in the sight glass will be lower. When both wheels are on the ground the level will show a more full reading. (The bike is tilted forward and isn't level when on the centerstand, so the level appears a little lower.)

Here's a link to the Oil FAQ entry: http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/How_do_I_check_my_oil%3F

[n4mwd]

Its still best to check it with it on the center stand. Any other way is too prone to error or is logistically infeasible. Not only that, but a lot of guys use 90 aspect ratio tires in the rear which leaves both tires on the ground with the center stand. Ideally, in a perfect world, strap a bubble level across the handlebars and have someone check it while you maintain level.

You can get a good approximation by sitting on the bike as level as possible and leaning over and looking. That is something you should do every time you start out. Even if you don't have it perfectly level, if you see oil in there, its probably safe to ride. Your oil light will start to come on more and more when it gets low. Its normal to come on when you brake heavy, but it should go out pretty quick. If it stays on for more than 10 seconds, turn of the engine, wait a few minutes and check to make sure there is oil in there.

That's another good reason to always use synthetic. Its more slippery than regular oil so the engine will survive a no-oil situation for longer.

[greg737]

Okay, time for a sanity check.

We'll throw this issue to a neutral third party for final judgement so nobody gets all angry or defensive. How about we ask Kawasaki?

If Kawasaki wanted you to put the motorcycle on the center stand to check the oil level don't you think they would have included that information in the EX-250 Service Manual?

That would make sense to me, how about you?

It would be an important item, right? Because if that's the only way to know if you've put enough oil into the motorcycle then failing to provide the owner with that information would result in tens of thousands of EX-250s running around without enough oil in the crankcase, right? Who knows how much engine damage would result from an oversight like that? Tens of thousands of ruined engines all over the world. I mean why would Kawasaki leave that information out?

Okay, (drum roll please....) here comes the judgement from Kawasaki: Page 6-6 in the Service Manual, in the "Engine Oil Level Inspection" section there is no mention of putting the motorcycle on the center stand.

The reason Kawasaki doesn't tell you to check the oil with the bike on the center stand is because they don't want you to check the oil with the bike on the center stand.



My own personal logic-check on this issue goes like this: The EX-250 Service Manual says that the bike takes 1.9 liters of oil when you change it (along with replacing the oil filter). When I change the oil+filter and then put in 1.9 liters of oil and then check the oil level with both tires on the ground the oil in the sightglass is about halfway full. Then when I put the bike on the center stand all the oil disappears from the sightglass. What does that tell you?

If Kawasaki wanted me to put the bike on the center stand to check the oil level but failed to tell me this in the service manual it would result in me riding around without enough oil in the crankcase because, as I've just pointed out, the same amount of oil (the recommended 1.9 liters in my example) looks like enough oil in the sightglass when the tires are both on the ground but doesn't even show in the sightglass with the bike on the center stand. So if the only true reading of the sightglass was on the centerstand I'd need to keep adding oil well beyond the Service Manual specification of 1.9 liters to get it to show up in the oil sightglass. Why would Kawasaki tell me 1.9 liters of oil was enough when it doesn't even show up in the oil sightglass?

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by greg737

The reason Kawasaki doesn't tell you to check the oil with the bike on the center stand is because they don't want you to check the oil with the bike on the center stand.

But that is an assumption on your part isn't it? Its more likely that you'll find the exact wording in other manuals for kawi bikes with the same sight glass that don't have a center stand.

They really don't give a precise way to measure it. Even sitting on the bike can cause one wheel to go down further than the other. The bottom line is that if there is oil in it, you're probably OK. If its below the lower mark but still in there, you can still ride it, just fill it soon.

The biggest problem I see is when people check it on its SIDE stand. That screws everything up. But the center stand, while not perfect, is a good way to go. If it really bugs you, shove a board under the front tire to even it up.

[Cuongism]

Checking on the center stand is akin to checking on a rear stand; skews the actual level of the oil since the bike is tilted forward. The 250 doesn't take too much oil so measuring on your center stand may overfill. You also don't need to sit on the bike to upright the bike. Put your right hand on the right handle bar and put your left hand to the clutch side of the seat. Put your face to the oil sight and pull the bike towards yourself. It's fairly easy to find the balance point.

[greg737]

But that is an assumption on your part isn't it? Its more likely that you'll find the exact wording in other manuals for kawi bikes with the same sight glass that don't have a center stand.

No. This is wrong. And it's even funny because you're arguing that I've made an assumption then you immediately proceed to make an assumption. It is funny, right?

Even sitting on the bike can cause one wheel to go down further than the other.

Once again, the reason they don't tell you to sit on the bike to check the oil is because they don't want you to sit on the bike to check the oil.

The biggest problem I see is when people check it on its SIDE stand.

Yeah, the reason the Kawasaki EX-250 Service Manual page 6-6 tells you to "Situate the motorcycle so that it is perpendicular to the ground..." is because they don't want you to check it while the bike is on its sidestand.

shove a board under the front tire to even it up.

What size board should I get?

[greg737]

Checking on the center stand is akin to checking on a rear stand; skews the actual level of the oil since the bike is tilted forward. The 250 doesn't take too much oil so measuring on your center stand may overfill. You also don't need to sit on the bike to upright the bike. Put your right hand on the right handle bar and put your left hand to the clutch side of the seat. Put your face to the oil sight and pull the bike towards yourself. It's fairly easy to find the balance point.

I've already tried this approach to explaining how to check the oil and it didn't take.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by greg737

What size board should I get?

The size that makes you happy.

How about a compromise. Use the center stand to center the bike, but not actually engage it (i.e.- use it as a centering tool and not as a stand). Then have another guy on the other side watch the glass. That should keep everyone happy.

I'm not at all good with telling people to pull the bike over on themselves. That's something that can easily happen if they aren't careful.

[greg737]

How about a compromise. Use the center stand to center the bike, but not actually engage it (i.e.- use it as a centering tool and not as a stand).

Yes, now we're in agreement.

In fact, that is exactly what I told the original poster of this thread in my very first reply.

It's the second post on this thread and I wrote:

On a very flat garage floor or driveway or sidewalk. Starting with the bike on its sidestand and you crouched down on the righthand side of the bike so you can see the oil sightglass. Reach up and grab the right handlebar grip (squeezing the brake lever with it) and bring the bike up toward vertical. With your left hand grab the center stand and bring it gently down to the floor (or driveway or sidewalk). When both of the center stand legs barely touch the floor at the same time your bike is perfectly vertical (if the bike is even a tiny bit tilted one of the side stand legs won't touch the floor). This is when you check the oil level.

And I'm right there with you on the safety issue, which is why I also wrote:

Throughout the process you tell yourself that maintaining the bike's balance and keeping control of it is the most important item, while getting a good look at the sightglass is secondary. Slow and gentle.

Of course, having somebody to help you (even just as a spotter) would be best, although I can't get my own wife to come out into the garage.

But apparently Cuongism's 9 year old nephew could come over and take care of the whole thing for you. That might be the safest way to go after all.

[n4mwd]

Again, I have a problem with grabbing the bars when you aren't on the bike. They move you know. I suppose, you could lock it with the key cocked to the left, but I wouldn't attempt it otherwise.

The manual doesn't say to hold it by the bars. The reason they don't say that is because they don't want you to.

[n4mwd]

But if you do check it by grabbing the handlebars, don't do it next to my bike.....

[greg737]

We're going to have the entire United States "sanitized for your protection"

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

a lot of guys use 90 aspect ratio tires in the rear which leaves both tires on the ground with the center stand.

umm... no. no it doesn't; not unless the back wheel is over a bump in the pavement. Even with a 250R-J shock and a 130/90-16 rear tire, the back wheel juuuuuuuust gets off the ground in the garage when the tire is brand new. Lowering the front end 1cm in the woodcraft risers helps get it higher off the ground.

[Alex]

I ran 130/90/16 sport demons, and the rear was still slightly off the ground with the center stand. But it was close.

[greg737]

where were you guys two hours ago?

[n4mwd]

My friends bike uses sport demons and his sits flat. But its sounding like his is the only one. He likes it that way because putting it on the rear stand is super easy. I've got sport scoots now, but there is a pair of sport demons sitting in my living room waiting to get installed when I have time. Now I'm curious if mine will sit flat or stick up.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by greg737

where were you guys two hours ago?

making a drawing on AutoCAD for class tomorrow and Dubsteppin'

[greg737]

and Dubsteppin'

Okay, thanks a lot. Just perfect. I'm officially "old" now.

[choneofakind]

sorry! I've been listening to Dubstep on Pandora.

Like this is a good song:

Link to original page on YouTube.

ok, I'm done threadjacking here...

[greg737]

Link to original page on YouTube.

[choneofakind]

I thought you might say something like that

Ahahaha well I also listen to Beethoven, Wagner, and Tommy Dorsey. Stevie Wonder (all Motown for that matter) and Muse (alternative and Indie rocks! Ska too) and tons of 90's music and Country. Modern rock too, and one of my buddies has gotten me hooked on music from Broadway. A little bit of everything. I've got something like 2400 songs in my iTunes library and my dorm room is always playing music.